Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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OrcaFat said:
I think you are right that Erik doesn’t want to drop certain players even though he probably should. I would like him to be bolder in that respect.

Tactics wise, he tries something a bit different yesterday which probably didn’t help because the players are confused enough as it is. The main 4141 / 3241 he’s been trying to implement is not working either but that’s because the players aren’t doing it right.

Some are saying EtH underestimates the Prem but, imo, it is more that he overestimates his players’ ability to follow instructions.
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We've blamed the players long enough, and this is a different squad than the one we had under previous managers. I just find it hard to believe that the 30/40/50 players we've signed over the last 10 years just can't follow instructions, yet other teams don't have this issue like we do. I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. Either it's not explained to them properly or the instructions/ tactics are just poor.

If the players aren't following instructions, which he claims after every poor performance or dropped points (never his fault, never any recognition that the opposition and their manager has an impact on how effective these tactics or instructions are) then it poses further questions as to why. Do they really understand what he wants? Why isn't he dropping players? Why do these issues persist after well over a year and so much money spent?

And to touch on the point I made above in brackets, I watched from the stands yesterday and barely saw an effort from him or the coaches to reorganise us, when that narrow press was getting pulled all over the place and leaving us vulnerable. I'm just not seeing what I expected from a manager people were putting in the Pep/Klopp bracket, claiming he was meticulous and had his teams well drilled and playing positive, aggressive football. I see none of that. I see no ability to control a game or a shape/ tactical plan to even try to do so. A lot of what he does makes no sense.
 
Berbaclass said:
You can be facetious and make silly comments all you like but he's obviously held back by this dysfunctional shitshow of a club.
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Out system is non existent but that does not remove the blame from the manager for being clueless. The other manager yesterday schooled him despite that his starting eleven cost around the same as Malacia.

He is coaching these players and he signed half of them. He shares a lot of responsibility for us being so shit at the moment.
 
Berbaclass said:
You can be facetious and make silly comments all you like but he's obviously held back by this dysfunctional shitshow of a club.
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Same way as Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, and Ole were being held back by us?

Maybe we just keep hiring the wrong managers the same way as we buy the wrong players - probably down to a combination of incompetence from the top down mixed with a bit of bad luck.
 
Chip said:
Same way as Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, and Ole were being held back by us?

Maybe we just keep hiring the wrong managers the same way as we buy the wrong players - probably down to a combination of incompetence from the top down mixed with a bit of bad luck.
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Hiring the wrong manager implies buying the wrong players considering that the manager is in charge of signing players (for some religious reasons).
 
I know that the club has issues mostly from the top.

I still do not understand why we don't have a definite pattern of play,I would be patient if I see what he is trying to do but it not working.

He has been here for more than a season and has bought players,by now we should be seeing some progress in the way we play.That I am not seeing and ETH is largely responsible for it.

I will wait to till Amrabat and Mount are fully integrated,ETH needs to improve the team and very fast.
 
Someone create a poll so I can really put a number on how many morons we have on the forum.
 
It's still way too early but he could be in big trouble very soon.

If it's one thing the club isn't hopeless at, it's picking the right time to sack a manager. I have agreed with every sacking (and the timings) so far. I trust that we will get it right this time too, should Ten Hag fail.
 
Revan said:
Hiring the wrong manager implies buying the wrong players considering that the manager is in charge of signing players (for some religious reasons).
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Well, it's obviously part of the problem. But shit tactics and bad man management has also been a common denominator of our managers post SAF.
 
Revan said:
Out system is non existent but that does not remove the blame from the manager for being clueless. The other manager yesterday schooled him despite that his starting eleven cost around the same as Malacia.

He is coaching these players and he signed half of them. He shares a lot of responsibility for us being so shit at the moment.
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How many of these players have thrown multiple managers under the bus?

Surely you’re intelligent enough to see the common denominators.
 
Worst United start to a PL season. Why do we set new records for being bad every fecking season? Things could get very ugly very soon.
 
Question shouldn't be that if you would keep or sack. Question should be that if he will get sacked. Every single manager we have had post Fergie went the same way and got sacked.
 
Cassidy said:
Maybe he is not too scared. Maybe the manager understands Rashford is his best chance of a goal at the moment
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Salah has been Liverpool's best chance of a goal for half a decade, doesn't stop Klopp from hauling his arse off if he's stinking up the joint or not putting in the desired effort.

Yet we have a player who isn't nearly as accomplished as Salah but who seemingly can't be dropped, subbed, criticised, and who doesn't need to press or track back.

Madness.
 
The quality of football is what worries me the most, the eye test doesn't lie. We just aren't fun or exciting to watch and we haven't been that since lockdown football.
 
He won’t come back from this, so the debate is probably a moot point.

It’s a terrible start and it looks like the players aren’t even putting in the running for him.

Those with optimism, I’m afraid it is curtains. It’s just a question of how long or how bad it will get before the axe drops.
 
Berbaclass said:
How many of these players have thrown multiple managers under the bus?

Surely you’re intelligent enough to see the common denominators.
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Players throwing the managers under the bus is the most bullshit thing ever. It is like a brain worm in a large part of United fans who think that players just randomly decide to not play well so the manager gets sacked, for no particular reason.

What happens is that managers are often clueless and not able to manage well the players under them. It happens everywhere, there is nothing particular about football.

This excuse has been used in Caf since Moyes, like people pretending that it is the same players. Yet, we have signed dozens of players over the years (ten Hag has signed permanently or in loan 14 players, and has promoted a few), but somehow the evil players (who are different from each other every manager change cause ‘the manager must sign his players’) conspire to get the manager fired. While in turn lowering their value and losing their yearly bonus. Because logic!
 
There are a lot of new players that have come in but we still have a lot of survivor players from previous coaches and both Ole and Jose did favour a more counter attacking approach to football. I'm not making excuses for ten Hag, i think the style of football should be better and in particular the possession stats but the club just doesn't do very well at shifting players or it simply adds another player with a weak mentality or bad attitude to the mix every now and then (e.g.,sancho) which just seems to perpetuate the culture problem alluded to many times.

If results get horrendously bad then obviously it will happen, but personally i'd hate to see another manager sacked and some of the players getting yet another opportunity and fresh start, which they'll feck up again.
 
Chip said:
Same way as Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, and Ole were being held back by us?

Maybe we just keep hiring the wrong managers the same way as we buy the wrong players - probably down to a combination of incompetence from the top down mixed with a bit of bad luck.
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That’s exactly what it is mate. I’m not absolving Ten Hag of all blame of course but I think looking at that game yesterday a few players body language was worrying.
It’s okay having a good team but when 7/8 out of the 11 are putting in the required effort then it’s very difficult to beat a team if 11 well drilled players who are playing for each other 100% no matter who our manager is.

There’s not a manager in the world that comes in and is able to “fix” us.

We will remain broken as long as we are owned by people whose number one priority is commercial success over anything. On the field success is nothing to them. They couldn’t care less.
 
Ffs - give the man a chance - a bump in the road and everyone’s in panic mode….agreed not a great start but we’ve been unlucky with injuries…..remember it’s a marathon not a sprint.

ETH is the man.
 
Did we not win a trophy, get into a final and finish 3rd in the league last season?? Let’s wait out this season before getting carried away.
 
Revan said:
Players throwing the managers under the bus is the most bullshit thing ever. It is like a brain worm in a large part of United fans who think that players just randomly decide to not play well so the manager gets sacked, for no particular reason.

What happens is that managers are often clueless and not able to manage well the players under them. It happens everywhere, there is nothing particular about football.

This excuse has been used in Caf since Moyes, like people pretending that it is the same players. Yet, we have signed dozens of players over the years (ten Hag has signed permanently or in loan 14 players, and has promoted a few), but somehow the evil players (who are different from each other every manager change cause ‘the manager must sign his players’) conspire to get the manager fired. While in turn lowering their value and losing their yearly bonus. Because logic!
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Ten Hag said it himself. There is a bad culture a the club. Nothing will change unless that changes. You bury your head in the sand though be my guest.
 
Berbaclass said:
Ten Hag said it himself. There is a bad culture a the club. Nothing will change unless that changes. You bury your head in the sand though be my guest.
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If God ten Hag said it, it must be true.

The main problem of the bad culture is that we have done shit hirings in all levels, and winning a fecking Carling Cup is considered a success to be worshipped. That comes from the very top, of course.

That still does not give amnesty to the manager for being crap. Again, he got free lessons (for the third time) by a manager whose team cost 1/3 of what we paid for Mason Mount. A team who has Danny Welbeck as their striker.
 
Revan said:
If God ten Hag said it, it must be true.

The main problem of the bad culture is that we have done shit hirings in all levels, and winning a fecking Carling Cup is considered a success to be worshipped. That comes from the very top, of course.

That still does not give amnesty to the manager for being crap. Again, he got free lessons (for the third time) by a manager whose team cost 1/3 of what we paid for Mason Mount. A team who has Danny Welbeck as their striker.
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Do you think Ten Hag is genuinely the root of the problem?
 
Revan said:
Out system is non existent but that does not remove the blame from the manager for being clueless. The other manager yesterday schooled him despite that his starting eleven cost around the same as Malacia.

He is coaching these players and he signed half of them. He shares a lot of responsibility for us being so shit at the moment.
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I agree with this. Non-existent in-game management, puzzling subs and poor tactics.
 
RedOrange said:
The tactic was fine. Despite having lots of possession Brighton struggled to get through the midfield (especially for the first 60-70 minutes, they just scored on 3 of the 4 or 5 clear cut chances because our midfielders do not track back.
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Yeah but we really didn't create anything either so yes we held Brighton back somewhat but we also lost our own attacking shape on the back of it.

So we were narrow struggled to create and ultimately got caught out by wide overloads on the break.

It stunk of perhaps showing Brighton to much respect especially at Old Trafford. It's was dare I say very pragmatic much like LVG.
 
Berbaclass said:
Do you think Ten Hag is genuinely the root of the problem?
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Nope. Murtough is a bigger problem than him, Arnold a bigger problem than Murtough, and the Glazers are ultimately the biggest problem.

That does not mean that ETH is not a problem too. He looks completely clueless, and is a massive part of the problem.
 
Maluco said:
He won’t come back from this, so the debate is probably a moot point.

It’s a terrible start and it looks like the players aren’t even putting in the running for him.

Those with optimism, I’m afraid it is curtains. It’s just a question of how long or how bad it will get before the axe drops.
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He won't come back from losing a few games at the start of the season whilst half his team are either injuryed or unavailable to him?

A little bit dramatic maybe.
 
Berbaclass said:
Do you think Ten Hag is genuinely the root of the problem?
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Your question implies that we have ONE problem only, and if we solve that one problem then we are champions.

In reality, we may have many problems, and one of the many problems might be that ETH is not good enough for this job. Maybe.
 
Revan said:
Nope. Murtough is a bigger problem than him, Arnold a bigger problem than Murtough, and the Glazers are ultimately the biggest problem.

That does not mean that ETH is not a problem too. He looks completely clueless, and is a massive part of the problem.
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I just can't agree. He's not faultless but I feel he is being let down badly by many areas of the club.

He inherited an absolute mess which will take time to sort out.
 
I would keep. I think he is a good coach. But also because there would be little point sacking him. We would have huge issues regardless.

However, with a new owner and a new management, I would consider it. Just for one reason. And that is De Zerbi.
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
Salah has been Liverpool's best chance of a goal for half a decade, doesn't stop Klopp from hauling his arse off if he's stinking up the joint or not putting in the desired effort.

Yet we have a player who isn't nearly as accomplished as Salah but who seemingly can't be dropped, subbed, criticised, and who doesn't need to press or track back.

Madness.
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Who said he can’t be dropped? Or subbed?
By the way Liverpool have Jota, Diaz, Nunez, Gakpo who score goals.

Salah was also criticised plenty for not helping TAA and not passing to Mane but we’ll gloss over that.
 
Everyone saying Zerbi. He wouldn’t last 2 months with the amount of pressure he will face at this club and he cant so anything with these so called footballers we have here.

Look what happened to potter
 
Velvet Revolver said:
Everyone saying Zerbi. He wouldn’t last 2 months with the amount of pressure he will face at this club and he cant so anything with these so called footballers we have here.

Look what happened to potter
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He also walked into probably one of the best run clubs in Europe. He would get eaten alive at United.
 
RedOrange said:
Right, they're a good team they're going to break the tactic down a few times. The whole point of the narrow formation was to concede space down the flanks to encourage Brighton to play the ball there, then seal off the pitch vertically and press them against the touch line. I made some images:




Here's how they lined up when Brighton started. Brighton typically try to bait a press from this position, opening up space in the middle of the pitch and then exploiting that for quick attacking moves. United instead went narrow and blocked the middle of the pitch. Rashford and Hojlund made curved runs toward the centre backs to push them to move the ball down the flank. I'm not totally sure where Brighton's central forward players were because the camera didn't really show them that much, so I'm mostly guessing here. Onana also wasn't this high up the pitch, so you can ignore that bit. The diagram represents the shape, not the exact area of the pitch this usually happened.



(Forgive me, I made this image first and only figured out how to change the keeper's colours afterwards, and I'm too lazy to go back and redo it)

Once the ball was played into the wide area, United would attack the ball in a press like this, sealing the pitch off to one side in a vertical line. This worked pretty successfully and United stole the ball from them pretty frequently, especially in the first 70 minutes of the match. The goals occurred when this press failed, at which point the midfielders needed to track runners back, which they didn't do.

BTW this is not a particularly outside the box tactic, lots of teams do a mid/high press like this from narrow formations. IIRC Rangnick used this kind of 4-3-3/4-1-2-1-2 formation sometimes. Every single tactic is going to leave weak spots for the opponent to exploit, that's just the nature of football, and that's where the importance of work rate and situational awareness comes in (i.e., you need to track the fecking midfield runners). The opponent breaking your tactic a few times is just part and parcel of football and something you have to be able to deal with to win matches.
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Yeah that’s a good post. Very well argued. I’ve said before (probably too many times!) that I like our tactics and it is the execution that is causing us problems.

I think the specific change to this narrower set-up was driven as much by the availability of players as by the opposition. If Antony and Mount were available then 4141 / 3241 would probably be preferred but, again, the execution is critical - it’s supposed (I believe) to create a box in CM with one of the back four stepping into midfield; then the onus is on the wingers to track all the way back. Erik keeps referring to “compactness” in defence but I think he just means players following their rules and getting into effective defensive positions. With the 4141 we have to press higher, of course, which is preferable if it works.

All of these formations / systems are quite complicated for the players to get right and they are risky because all the players have to do their job- if one player doesn’t understand where he’s supposed to be and what he’s supposed to be doing we can end up exposed. My feeling is that EtH overestimates the players’ ability to understand the tactics. Some of them get it fine but it only takes one to be confused and then the whole thing gets shambolic pretty fast.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
He won't come back from losing a few games at the start of the season whilst half his team are either injuryed or unavailable to him?

A little bit dramatic maybe.
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He won’t come back for losing 3 out of his first 5, terrible performances, buying the wrong players, 7-0 Liverpool, 4-0 Brentford, 3-0 Sevilla, two seasons in a row with massive fitness issues at the start of the season, incoherent tactics, serious issues with pressing coordination and intensity and the players clearly not working for him.

Hardly dramatic. It’s just a matter of when now.
 
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