Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Seems curious that Sancho was left out because of his attitude yet Martial started…

I am not a fan of Sancho at all but I am confused with Ten Hag’s observation.
 
I think his point was more that you can be good without a striker rather than we had top strikers. He actually later clarified it by saying that City won EPL without a striker (which is a true considering that their only striker Gabriel Jesus was injured most of the season) and that Brighton is playing good with Welbeck up front.

Yes, fair enough.

It's still a reasonable argument to make that ETH has not had anything like a proper CF at United: he's had either positively shit ones or ones that you maybe can argue that he should have made more of (but even that seems a bit of a stretch).

And Brighton is not United. You know as well as I do that it ain't that simple, so I don't have to point it out. But for random readers: replacing ETH with RDZ and Weghorst (or whoever) with Welbeck probably wouldn't do the trick.
 
He's press resistance but is not that type of players.
I only watched him at World Cup so I'm pretty much clueless but still doubt it.

Fiorentina plays totally differently than Morocco did in the world cup. His passing and ball progression stats are very good for them. Bodes well that he can play well in a possession based passing deep and be a ball winning/holding midfielder.
 
We had no striker because he splashed 90m on Antony and 80m on Casemiro. Not like the club didn't offer him enough money to sign one. He's the one who chose Antony to be his offensive signing and eat most of the budget for his sake.

That's the issue when discussing transfers anyway. It's not the club's fault. There's plenty of money but Ten Hag has wasted most of it.

We had Martial and Ronaldo?
 
I'm not complaining, I'm making a point that there are numerous sides in the PL, many of whom are less well-resourced, who appear to be able to play front foot, attacking football for the most part.

Brighton highlight a point. They have a defined system, similar (but not the same) under Potter and De Zerbi which is good to watch and gives teams problems. They can lose players and simply slot others in, often not as experienced/talented as the ones they're replacing, straight in. Meanwhile, a year down the line, despite having players of the quality of Casemiro, Eriksen and Fernandes, they're all unable to get to grips with whatever tactics Ten Hag wants to employ? Either the players don't fit the tactics, or they don't get what they're being asked to do.

Onana looks great in possession. The problem is he has five touches and since the midfield can't progress it, it ends up back at his feet and he then boots it long towards Rashford on the left, just like De Gea was.

You might think you can see significant improvement. Good for you, but I don't see it. We were poor at the end of last season and it's continued into this. The Wolves game is one of the worst I've seen in years. Midfield is an obvious problem and it's been that way for years. Maybe Amrabat changes that to a degree and if so we've dodged a massive bullet given how late we left it, totally relaint on him pushing it trhough because we'd blown most of the money already.

Im in the same boat, maybe my expectations were way to high, but i honestly believed our football would look much better than it does right now. We look alright enough in defense, but our pressing, passing and general build up play in the opponents half does not at all resemble a top team. Maybe ETH is cooking something great that only needs time and a few more ingedients to really click, but right now i cant really see it.

We were shite vs Wolves, Spurs and Forest, a tiny bit better on Sunday considering the injuries and opponent, but even then we caused Arsenal very few problems besides a few moments of Individual Brilliance™. The most dissapointing part for me is how pedestrian and clueless we look when trying to break down a organized defense. Maybe its a fitness issue or simply our players being lazy fecks, but moving around and making oneself available still seem a foreign concept to us
 
Yeah everyone said that to me about Arteta too. They might struggle with the amount of games, doesn't mean anything in terms of style of play. They don't spend like we do and don't have as deep a squad. Add £500m worth of players to Brighton and they'd be a force in my opinion.

Look at Potter he did well at Brighton failed miserably when the expectation cranked up, also funny you mention Arteta because did anyone think he was gonna come good after finishing 8th x2 if anything it proves that one year isn't enough time to change a club around
 
We had Ronaldo, Martial and Weghorst.
Besides, does that matter? Brighton are playing teams off the park with Welbeck, before that they had fecking Maupay. City won the league with no CF.

Would you like to share where Brighton finished in the table with those strikers?
 
God, I hate losing to arsenal. It really messes with my spirit.
Liverpool losses hurt less honestly. Especially if you’re a 90s kid. I fecking loathe them and their irritating af fan base. Such clueless goons.
 
The one thing he won't be given is time. In fact, as with all his predecessors, if he fails to get in the CL this season I can see a situation where they give him the sack and get Poch in (who will have already been sacked by Boehly).
Sacking him means paying him off, getting a new guy in and buying his players, i dont think thats on the cards under the glazers now
 
Jesus wept people on here wanting ETH out. Gotta be opposition supporters on the wind up. I think this window he got it wrong with Mount. But in all fairness ETH has been a breath of fresh air. But let’s sack him and start all over again. It’s laughable.
 
I don't really buy the no improvement/no tactics argument because I think it's very obvious when you watch us okay that a lot has changed from under Ole.

I am concerned with Ten Hag this season though. He built up some stock last season but he isn't a Klopp or a Pep where players will respect him no matter what.

He's tried to force the players into a dumb system, tried to pretend Mount is a CM, doesnt pick and then calls out a player to the media for apparently not reaching his standards, but signs and picks a 35 year old who obviously can't meet any standards required for a top 4 side.

Based on last season I would still think he can identify and fix the issues from our opening games, but he's playing with fire pulling so much random guff that seems to make little sense in such a short space of time. If the players start to doubt him or think he's applying double stabdards or making it more dofficult for them, he will have issues...and if I was one of our players I think I'd be a bit bemused what he's up to atm.
 
We had Martial and Ronaldo?

Ronaldo was 36 years who was never going to play every game or for us to fully depend on him going into the season even if he hadn't exploded. The view back then entering the season was that Martial was going to carry the team which was a stupid way of thinking going by Martial's injury record in the previous years.

Instead of wasting money on Antony, we should have paid that sum for a long term striker that will replace both. Instead we ended with two duds on the right wing and no striker. It was a terrible planning.
 
I don't really buy the no improvement/no tactics argument because I think it's very obvious when you watch us okay that a lot has changed from under Ole.

I am concerned with Ten Hag this season though. He built up some stock last season but he isn't a Klopp or a Pep where players will respect him no matter what.

He's tried to force the players into a dumb system, tried to pretend Mount is a CM, doesnt pick and then calls out a player to the media for apparently not reaching his standards, but signs and picks a 35 year old who obviously can't meet any standards required for a top 4 side.

Based on last season I would still think he can identify and fix the issues from our opening games, but he's playing with fire pulling so much random guff that seems to make little sense in such a short space of time. If the players start to doubt him or think he's applying double stabdards or making it more dofficult for them, he will have issues...and if I was one of our players I think I'd be a bit bemused what he's up to atm.
Agree with this. All feels a little unnecessary. The Mount thing is genuinely insane though and I think it could cost him big time.
 
I mean in terms of looking like a footballing team we're probably the best since SAF left. He says the right things and is clearly smart.

The only problem is recruitment. He badly needs help with it. We need a proper RW next summer. Hopefully Hojlund and Amrabat are good. No idea why we spent so much on Mount. We'll probably need a DM cover and/or a ball playing CM and another CB. Get all that and we could be good. The problem is the club structure is basically let the manager sign whomever he wants, which doesn't work in the modern era.

For example based on players that were sold in the last two transfer windows, we could be lining up something like this:

Rashford - Hojlund - Ousman Dembele
Szoboszlai - Bruno
Bissouma

For less than what we spent on Mount, Antony and Casemiro (and I'm a big Cas fan it's just he has a lot of mileage already). That team would be a threat to any team in the world. If we can sort recruitment out we can get up there like Arsenal have.
 
I mean in terms of looking like a footballing team we're probably the best since SAF left. He says the right things and is clearly smart.

The only problem is recruitment. He badly needs help with it. We need a proper RW next summer. Hopefully Hojlund and Amrabat are good. No idea why we spent so much on Mount. We'll probably need a DM cover and/or a ball playing CM and another CB. Get all that and we could be good. The problem is the club structure is basically let the manager sign whomever he wants, which doesn't work in the modern era.
We need to see Amad and Pellistri at RW first.
 
Jesus wept people on here wanting ETH out. Gotta be opposition supporters on the wind up. I think this window he got it wrong with Mount. But in all fairness ETH has been a breath of fresh air. But let’s sack him and start all over again. It’s laughable.
Very few fans are calling for him to be sacked now but I cannot see much progress being done since April, how we lost the FA cup final, preseason and our first 4 games. I expected us to build on our 3rd place last season but all I see is a disjointed team not excelling at anything. ETH will be sacked if this continues at least come May, maybe even sooner. I saw an agening Casemiro in April and was stunned that ETH thought that Mount was the player our midfield needed. Interesting times ahead and a victory against Brighton will lift the mood.
 
If we look at Arsenal I think we can all see the benefits of staying the course with a manager particularly if you have a dressing room that has misfits and mal contents that need weeding out. I know he has made a few expensive mistakes but we need to stick by him, tolerate a few lean seasons whilst shed off the excess weight and then re-emerge with a younger, hungrier side on the other side.

For the above to work he has to trust his colleagues in recruitment more or work with ETH to build a proper scouting structure so that we get more value for money than we are currently getting. We need to start hitting the bull's eye with signings, we need to integrate youth some more and things like that. He has the right ideas about the game in its modern format, he just needs help to identify the right players and to know that with the Glazers you don't get much of a second chance to right a wrong signing.

On the pitch, injuries notwithstanding, he has to call it like he sees it. If Amrabat outperforms Case then he should play, if Amad returns and shows up Antony then he should play. Forget reputations and transfer fees. I feel this is what accounted for Ole back then, he got his wagon hitched to his inner circle of players who were letting him down on the pitch and he stuck by them to his own detriment.
 
That will be a stupid decision from us, well, typical United.
Two upsides to Poch would be (a) more overt emphasis upon aggressive, forward-looking play ( and yes, i know chelsea haven't pulled up trees so far this season; its the approach rather than whether the players pull it off), including team selection around physical profile and technical strengths (so Mount would be substituting for Bruno or wide forward rather than 8; midfield in general would be 'stronger'); and (b) more willingness to defer to transfer committee. Again, I'm not saying their decisions would be great either, but we have to get away from the manager-centred transfer philosophy that produces disjointed squads and favourites. I know Poch in latter days of Tottenham tried to get more transfer power, so it would be up to the SD to assert authority.

That's not to say he'd necessarily be a better fit overall compared to ETH. It's certainly not clear-cut either way, and i wouldn't swap ETH for Poch at this stage before seeing how season pans out with RH and Amrabat working within system, Mainoo hopefully playing bigger part once he comes back etc..
 
Other than maybe De Zerbi is there actually any better coaches or managers out there who could work with this squad.
 
I mean in terms of looking like a footballing team we're probably the best since SAF left. He says the right things and is clearly smart.

The only problem is recruitment. He badly needs help with it. We need a proper RW next summer. Hopefully Hojlund and Amrabat are good. No idea why we spent so much on Mount. We'll probably need a DM cover and/or a ball playing CM and another CB. Get all that and we could be good. The problem is the club structure is basically let the manager sign whomever he wants, which doesn't work in the modern era.

For example based on players that were sold in the last two transfer windows, we could be lining up something like this:

Rashford - Hojlund - Ousman Dembele
Szoboszlai - Bruno
Bissouma

For less than what we spent on Mount, Antony and Casemiro (and I'm a big Cas fan it's just he has a lot of mileage already). That team would be a threat to any team in the world. If we can sort recruitment out we can get up there like Arsenal have.
Yep the recruitment has been abysmal and Arnold needs to pull the finger out of his behind and get ETH and Murtough to sit down in his office to establish a proper procedure re signings and properly build the scouting unit until it meets the required standard. Murtough failed badly when he allowed ETH to take the lead on signings, he might have to walk and ETH, if he survives what's coming, will need to swallow his pride and work with the recruitment team.

As things stand ETH better hope that what we are seeing with Casemiro is not another Schweinsteiger situation and pray that Amrabat works out regardless of what happens with Casemiro over the next few months. Eriksen is good but physically he is done, Mount looks like a horrible experiment going wrong from the moment chemicals got mixed so he is going to hope that Mainoo comes back and is the real deal or he will need to give Hannibal a proper shot. Antony plays well as you would expect from a proper two way player but we need goals and assists badly so when Amad comes back he has to be given proper cameos to see where he is at in the context of the step up from the Championship.
 
Agree with this. All feels a little unnecessary. The Mount thing is genuinely insane though and I think it could cost him big time.

It's the combination of strange decisions I worry about. The Sancho comment is nothing on its own for example, but you can't be saying stuff like that when you're signing Jonny Evans,pretending Mount is a CM, etc.

Players are human like the rest of us. If your manager does stupid things that make your job more difficult, employs people who are incompetent that you have to compensate for, then starts criticising you or your colleagues over your performance, you're not exactly going to become more motivated to impress them.
 
I'm not complaining, I'm making a point that there are numerous sides in the PL, many of whom are less well-resourced, who appear to be able to play front foot, attacking football for the most part.

Brighton highlight a point. They have a defined system, similar (but not the same) under Potter and De Zerbi which is good to watch and gives teams problems. They can lose players and simply slot others in, often not as experienced/talented as the ones they're replacing, straight in. Meanwhile, a year down the line, despite having players of the quality of Casemiro, Eriksen and Fernandes, they're all unable to get to grips with whatever tactics Ten Hag wants to employ? Either the players don't fit the tactics, or they don't get what they're being asked to do.

Onana looks great in possession. The problem is he has five touches and since the midfield can't progress it, it ends up back at his feet and he then boots it long towards Rashford on the left, just like De Gea was.

You might think you can see significant improvement. Good for you, but I don't see it. We were poor at the end of last season and it's continued into this. The Wolves game is one of the worst I've seen in years. Midfield is an obvious problem and it's been that way for years. Maybe Amrabat changes that to a degree and if so we've dodged a massive bullet given how late we left it, totally relaint on him pushing it trhough because we'd blown most of the money already.

You're framing the Brighton example wrongly, as while they're less money-resourced, they've had a lot more of a more important resource - time - to build that system and become a front foot team. It's a great target for us to aim for, under Woodward we were all over the place appointing polar opposite managers and swapping them out after a few years, there was no continuity. Hopefully we can get a football structure in place to emulate theirs, or at least that operates with foresight and a plan.

With regards to Onana, yes I agree that we're not good at progressing the ball yet, but we weren't going to go from a long ball counter team to a masterful possession team overnight, and it's a big improvement on last season and a crucial step towards being able to build attacks from the back.

The end of last season the team was running entirely on fumes, so I don't think that's a fair thing to point to, especially given that we still got over the 3rd place finish line and were edged out in the FA Cup final by City. As for this season, Wolves was poor, I agree, but that's mostly due to players not fulfilling their duties, and even then we won the ball in dangerous positions quite a few times but wasted it. The first half against Spurs was a much better example of what we're aiming for, but again we were let down, particularly in the second half, by players defaulting to what they know and are used to from multiple seasons gone by. Forest was a terrible start from players not concentrating, followed by a re-enactment of the Alamo where we completely dominated, and Arsenal yesterday was an evenly matched game, away from home against the second best team in the country last season (who were the best for long periods).

I think you're being a lot more reasonable than some of the other detractors on this thread, and I understand some of your concerns, you've articulated them well, but I genuinely think we're putting pieces in place for a very good team, and we need time to see it through. Even if we sacked EtH tomorrow, we'd need to bring in a manager who wants to play progressively, who is also pragmatic enough to evolve the team steadily as we're not fully capable of it yet, so it would still take time.
 
Of course we are improving, maybe if you actually watched the game and not just numbers would have helped.
I watched the game but clearly not the same game as you.

if you maintain we’re improving, tell me how and where. Then tell me again that results don’t matter.
I meant look at how the team plays football, not the fecking stats.

But the stats are a reflection of how well the team plays football. You get no points for playing brilliant football and losing
 
Seems curious that Sancho was left out because of his attitude yet Martial started…

I am not a fan of Sancho at all but I am confused with Ten Hag’s observation.
Martial startyed because starting Hoijlund would have been unfair on the player, there's plenty of cover for Sancho
 
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The one thing he won't be given is time. In fact, as with all his predecessors, if he fails to get in the CL this season I can see a situation where they give him the sack and get Poch in (who will have already been sacked by Boehly).

I doubt he will be sacked. It might happen if he's in a Jose-like meltdown or if we have a terrible season, say like Chelsea last season, but not for missing out on CL football.
 
Maybe it does, and evidently signing Onana is a big step, but it then makes you wonder what the plan was last year if he needed such a different player in goal to make his system work? Why persist with De Gea who patently can't do that?

I admire your optimism and perhaps I'm unduly pessimistic, but we've had a number of managers who have come in and torn up what the old manager did, signed tens of millions of pounds worth of players who weren't good enough, failed, and then the next manager has the problem of what to do with them all while wanting another 7 or 8 of his own. He fails, then it's rinse and repeat. That is evidently, in part, a problem caused by the structure of the footballing side of the club, but it's heading worryingly towards a point where we're being asked to trust what the new man is doing without really seeing a significant improvement over a year down the line.

Time will tell I suppose.

I've decided to be mostly optimistic this season.

Except towards players like Martial, Sancho, McT, Maguire and all those players who just have a long list of being mostly disappointing.

It's also mostly because I think this has to be one of those squads where the technical levels are just too low and have been for a long time, that this process will just take longer. ETH has been addressing that by bringing in players rhat improve the baseline. It's why Linfelof, Maguire, Fred, McT, AWB etc found themselves sitting on the bench for most of last year.

If you look back at SAF teams and squads, every single player was capable of playing quick 1 and 2 touch football, with crisp presice passing and movement. Every player had to be at least capable of that, if you couldn't do it you were out. It's why he was able to win leagues and cups with Cleverly and Anderson playing in midfield. They weren't great players but they could play with quick precise passing and movement.

Most of this squad just seemed to play slowed down 4 and 5 touch football, with slow passing and movement. It's a struggle to get them to improve on that, when they just don't have technical abilities to do so, players like McT and Maguire just aren't fluid enough in their body movements, it's obvious just by looking at them.

I think there's still a bit to go, I think Lindelof and AWB should be next for the chop, their ball playing and movement is not up.to scratch. You'll never have success playing out from the back with those two playing. The footballing structure in the background picked ETH because of his style and way of playing. Now they need to double down and start working better to replace the rest of the squad that isn't good enough and start looking at long term replacements for the likes of Varane, Casemiro, Eriksen, Shaw, AWB, Dalot.
 
I watched the game but clearly not the same game as you.

if you maintain we’re improving, tell me how and where. Then tell me again that results don’t matter.


But the stats are a reflection of how well the team plays football. You get no points for playing brilliant football and losing

Sorry, but if you are seriously trying to claim we haven't inproved at all then no I don't think you are watching the same game - or perhaps just don't understand what your seeing.

Go watch a game or two under Ralph, it might help you see the difference.
 
Seems curious that Sancho was left out because of his attitude yet Martial started…

I am not a fan of Sancho at all but I am confused with Ten Hag’s observation.
I’m curious where you get all your inside info from to determine your confusion with Ten Hags observation.
 
I think that the people who criticise ten Hag for losing a game with his 5th and 6th choice CB on the pitch need to look back on how Arsenal collapsed as soon as Rob Holding needed to play a few games last season.
 
When we were playing the 800 passes to and from our goal keeper and fullbacks, how many times did you yelp or swear with a moments panick ?

Based on my reactions, heart rate and blood pressure we are not ready for this style of football.
 
Facepalm. Shaw played regularly last season. Martinez has had one injury, broken metstarsal, that's not on anyone. Varane history of injuries predate ETH.

I'm not saying the injuries are necessarily his fault (although it does raise questions about the squad's strength and conditioning).

I'm saying that a defence where 3 of the back-4 have a history of injuries, and where we end up playing Harry Maguire and Johnny Evans as the centre half pairing away from home against one of the best teams in the country just 4 games into the season, is not my idea of "fixed".
 
I like Ten Hag, but we play some god awful stuff. Look at how quickly Ange got Spurs playing.
 
When we were playing the 800 passes to and from our goal keeper and fullbacks, how many times did you yelp or swear with a moments panick ?

Based on my reactions, heart rate and blood pressure we are not ready for this style of football.
Zero. We were forced to play with two midfielders that you wouldn’t put down winning duals and defending as a strength. A fast paced chaotic game would have ended in the way the ones moaning about the slow pace assumed it would, but are now moaning anyway.
 
I like Ten Hag, but we play some god awful stuff. Look at how quickly Ange got Spurs playing.

Against who? We’re the only decent team they played and they should have been down 2-0 at halftime. What followed was a mental collapse on our part.
 
The one thing he won't be given is time. In fact, as with all his predecessors, if he fails to get in the CL this season I can see a situation where they give him the sack and get Poch in (who will have already been sacked by Boehly).
Nah no chance we get rid of him to hire a manager that’s just been fired by Chelsea, if that’s the case then. The lack of managerial talent out there may be his saving grace if things go south for the rest of season, we may persist with him for the simple reason there don’t seem to be any obvious available choices out there. Nagelsmann’s stock has nosedived after his Bayern spell, otherwise he’d have probably been the obvious choice.
 
Against who? We’re the only decent team they played and they should have been down 2-0 at halftime. What followed was a mental collapse on our part.
It's always "should have" with us. Should've won this, should've scored that. Could say we should've lost to Wolves too if we want to go down that road. It's nonsense spouted by people who blindly want to defend their view. Fact is we weren't up 2-0 against Spurs, because our attack is terrible and we play awful football at least 45 minutes every match. It's there for all to see
 
Nah no chance we get rid of him to hire a manager that’s just been fired by Chelsea, if that’s the case then. The lack of managerial talent out there may be his saving grace if things go south for the rest of season, we may persist with him for the simple reason there don’t seem to be any obvious available choices out there. Nagelsmann’s stock has nosedived after his Bayern spell, otherwise he’d have probably been the obvious choice.

At this point is there anyone with the chops for the job that is available ?
We never tried an Italian...
 
Nah no chance we get rid of him to hire a manager that’s just been fired by Chelsea, if that’s the case then. The lack of managerial talent out there may be his saving grace if things go south for the rest of season, we may persist with him for the simple reason there don’t seem to be any obvious available choices out there. Nagelsmann’s stock has nosedived after his Bayern spell, otherwise he’d have probably been the obvious choice.
To be fair, Ancelotti is (likely) gonna be free in the summer. Zidane is also jobless. Spalletti and Inzaghi could be interesting choices too, Nagelsmann as you mentioned, De Zerbi can show that he is not an one year wonder, same for Howe. We can get Emery to win us the Europa, providing we finish 6th or 7th this season :)

Truth be told, there are always good managers available and keeping an underperforming manager just cause there is not much out there is not a good idea. But truth be told, for a new manager to have a high impact the club should have a good football structure above him. We do not have one, for whatever reasons our DoF thinks that his job is to bring the players the managers requests (and ideally overpay for them). So while there are interesting choices there (look at de Zerbi who was a nobody but now looks like one of the most promising managers in the world), it likely will be the same old song for us. It will be crap again, but a lot of people will be convinced that our manager is right there with Klopp and Pep if he wins a League Cup.
 
It would have to go unbelievably bad for me to give up on Ten Hag this season, partly because once he goes my hope, which is minimal while the Glazers are still here, is absolutely gone, dead and buried. Still has my faith.
 
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