Of course we are improving, maybe if you actually watched the game and not just numbers would have helped.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Can't blame him on the outgoing personnel front. It's always the non football side that messes things up for our managers since the Fergie/Gill combo.
Prioritising the accounting books over actual football dynamics creates a toxic environment but it seems like we never learn.
Prioritising the accounting books over actual football dynamics creates a toxic environment but it seems like we never learn.
Jose would have got the points though
Would've could've should've for EtH also yesterday, but ABU had a field day yesteday!
As long as the Glazers are in the building, ETH will not be lifting a premier league trophy any time soon. The entire leadership structure of this club is toxic to the bone and we are left with a bunch of deadwood players such as Sancho and Maguire who are our best bench options.
the fact that in 2023 we’re playing Maguire and Evans against Arsenal away should tell us how much we’ve regressed in terms of having a proper squad.
the fact that in 2023 we’re playing Maguire and Evans against Arsenal away should tell us how much we’ve regressed in terms of having a proper squad.
The last bit just isn't true, and it's such a tired argument. There is clearly a style that EtH is trying to implement, it's just taking time as he's been pragmatic enough to understand he couldn't make the switch immediately and expect to be successful, especially seeing how badly we panicked when trying to play some football in his first couple of matches with us.
This season has seen an improvement, we're orders of magnitude more comfortable with the ball at the back thanks to Onana, and the first half against Spurs showed pretty well what he's aiming for, but old habits die hard and we still have plenty of players for whom sitting deep and countering is muscle memory, and so are still learning where they need to be, how to press as part of a unit, etc.
Of course, but I very much doubt we will be
Just my opinion, but I think yesterday is a watershed moment for us in terms of being a team who can have more control over the game. We kept the ball so well at the back against their press that they gave up trying to press us. This has never happened to us in the age of high pressing football.
The scoreline always dictates the narrative unfortunately "united destroyed by incredible Arsenal etc etc" but I think the performance yesterday was far better than in the 3-2 loss there last season.
Hojlund is going to be transformative in this team. Look at the way he occupied the Arsenal defence in his cameo. They were terrified of him IMO
FFP is being limited because of previous spending and reduced revenues. Not really all to do with ETH, he's spent the money he had to on improving the first 11 to remove the least technically capable players.
I don't get this idea that style has to be so clear and defined at this stage. He's still bedding in new players and new ideas, he's still trying to remove bad habits out of other players. I think I can see what he's trying to do, but he's being hampered by the injuries and the quality in depth at his disposal.
Exactly, I mean one title in my country said, translating: "Someone sent justice to Emirates: Manchester surviving 96 minutes, Declan Rice knocked them down" Bloody hell, what am I reading.
It is like I was watching a different game.
Also some people still not seeing clear pattern and style of play is mad to me, genuinely mad.
I still need some time to access his progress with the team but I agree on many takes here.
We seem to be all over the place and there’s no balance in the team, no enough physicality and it’s been over a year but I still don’t understand what ETH proposes to get this team forward. Perhaps he still needs time but there are some worrying signs.
Another thing that scares me a bit is that we haven’t been scoring enough goals, Højlund looks promising surely but I don’t think he has 10 or 15 goals in him that we desperately need now. We just don’t have enough goalscorers and on top of that it looks like our defenders drop like flies. Concerning.
Agree. For the first time in a very long time I have a feeling we are progressing. It’s a daunting task in the most competitive competition on the planet. It will take time and what I like about ETH is that he has a process, doesn’t panic and is ready to have the last laugh.
I think most criticism is at how we play. Because even when we get the results, we didn't play well.
For me the style of football, and issues associated with it, is much more of a worry than results. If I saw some good football, some clear patterns of how are we going to progress the ball forward, that would be OK because it just needs to click for the whole team. This isn't the case though.
It’s so odd reading this. I must be watching a completely different team! The football is far more progressive than under previous managers, with an easily identifiable style of play, even if the team isn’t as effective as we would like yet.
And we saw that yesterday, we controlled Arsenals press really good, best I have seen us do that in forever. There is clear plan and style.
Arsenal didn't press because we controlled them and instead they stayed in a structure and setup counter-press traps in the middle of the park. It was a cat-and-mouse tactical battle first half.
Second half we made adjustments and with the introduction of Hojlund were able to progress the ball better as he offered more off the ball than Martial.
We saw plenty of patterns of play first half vs Spurs and also vs Forrest where we created plenty of chances.
Its quite easy to see what we are working towards as a team and also why he wanted to sign Amrabat
I don't think any of us are deluded enough to think we'll be challenging gor the title this season, but it's already looking like it could be an almighty struggle just to get 4th. Looks like there's one realistic spot for us to to aim for.
Missing out on CL football next year would be disastrous and Ten Hag couldn't complain about being sacked given the money he's spent. Hope it doesn't come to that, but Brighton at home and Burnley away are must win games already after the international break. Will be a real test of his resourcefulness considering the injury list.
I really want to believe in the guy, but our away form is seriously concerning even if there were a few encouraging signs yesterday.
Missing out on CL football next year would be disastrous and Ten Hag couldn't complain about being sacked given the money he's spent. Hope it doesn't come to that, but Brighton at home and Burnley away are must win games already after the international break. Will be a real test of his resourcefulness considering the injury list.
I really want to believe in the guy, but our away form is seriously concerning even if there were a few encouraging signs yesterday.
Yet under him the talk was of just having imposig athletes rather than technical footballers. though I agree that our first eleven isnt physically imposing and it is a concern on dead balls, I dont think the problem has been lack of height at the back and on set pieces, it is the lack of adaption with the zonal marking. Yesterday Arsenal had loads of corners and wasted the vast majority of them with poor set pieces. The few deeper good ones they played in the first half, they always seemed to have free players on the back post as nobody seemed to recognise it individually or as a group moving further back. Even with Maguire, Pogba, Matic, Fellaini in the side yesterday, it wouldnt really make a difference if they are in a zone with only one of them marking three players at the back post.
The fact it wasnt addressed at half time ended up costing us the game. The inability of that is concerning from both the players and manager.
I do however feel the failure to sign a quality young strong centre back this summer will be a huge mistake with probable injuries to our firt choice options. I mentioned Bella Kotchap several times on this forum, he has jsut gone on loan so cost nothing.....the general response is "he isnt good on the ball".....people are obsessed with the technical side rather than simple parts of the game on here, so in that sense I have an element of agreement, but I just dont think despite a vision of how he wants to play he has got the tactical part right yet or the recruitment, which makes me think people menting a 3year plan and next summers transfers will complete it.....are naive
Exactly, I mean one title in my country said, translating: "Someone sent justice to Emirates: Manchester surviving 96 minutes, Declan Rice knocked them down" Bloody hell, what am I reading.
It is like I was watching a different game.
Also some people still not seeing clear pattern and style of play is mad to me, genuinely mad.
My biggest gripe is our own fans using this word 'cowardly' to describe us nullifying the Arsenal press and then hitting them perfectly on the break twice and scoring, (damn you offside lines!).
There's some irony in the fact that the team that beat us yesterday stood by their manager for a few years before he came good. And Arsenal were pretty poor in Arteta's first two seasons.
I do not know why people are praising our performance yesterday. It was not dogshit (like against Wolves or second half vs Spurs), but Arsenal was by far the better team.
2.27-0.96 in xG
42 touches for them in our box vs 19 for us in their box
168 passes for them in our final third vs 47 for us in their final third
Only 12.2% of our passes were in the final third, the second lowest we ever did since this stat started getting measured almost 2 decades ago.
Essentially, we played LVG-like football where we kept the ball between defenders but were unable to do much with it. But back then it was insomnia-curing football while now it is progressive football. Similar to how when Mourinho criticizes players it is toxic, but when EtH does it, it is not an issue.
Not even Ole got as many excuses.
2.27-0.96 in xG
42 touches for them in our box vs 19 for us in their box
168 passes for them in our final third vs 47 for us in their final third
Only 12.2% of our passes were in the final third, the second lowest we ever did since this stat started getting measured almost 2 decades ago.
Essentially, we played LVG-like football where we kept the ball between defenders but were unable to do much with it. But back then it was insomnia-curing football while now it is progressive football. Similar to how when Mourinho criticizes players it is toxic, but when EtH does it, it is not an issue.
Not even Ole got as many excuses.
Im sick and tired of all these excuses. Its like Groundhog day. At the end of the day its about results and performance. Its not been up to standard. Fact. Ten Haag has to take some blame
I'd wait to see what a full team with the first choice defence + Mount and Amrabat + Rasmus does for a run of games.
Otherwise I agree that the performance wasn't as great as someone here claim. Not for a supposed top team that is.
My criticism is we seem to stumble upon chances. I don't see for example what is the plan to get the ball to attackers, something top teams do very effectively. Arsenal did that all game yesterday, Martinelli alone must've won 10 corners (and he was against one of the best 1on1 fullbacks around). Saka had a quiet game and that's what let Arsenal down. They still managed to get 3 goals (not undeserved too).
Lumping the ball forward is not a strategy that Manchester United should be applying.
Onana is the single player that makes the difference in how teams approach/press us compared to last season.
We have one of the worlds leading scouting systems but the managers veto them. We had already scouted Antony and ID'd his weaknesses from back when he was in Brazil and declared not right for us yet ETH still wanted him. We were chasing Caicedo at the same time as Brighton. If managers listened to our club recommendations we would have had Thiago, Kroos, Haaland, Enzo, Bellingham, Alvarez. But managers tend to veto and go for their own options. Ole recommended Haaland before he was manager.
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That relies on movement from the attackers which was non existent, and only changed once Hojlund and Garnacho came on.
It also relies on bravery from the midfielders to hold the ball and turn and not just pass it straight back to the defender that played it too them
You have to also credit Arsenal because their defensive shape was really good, they cut off most passing lanes into midfield and into the forwards. At this point you need your forwards to move and show for the ball.
Against Spurs and Forrest we were a lot better because they both have inferior defensive organisation
The plan was to beat the press and then start the build up from there, the attacking players didn't show enough off the ball movement first half.
Ironically probably someone like Sancho would have helped
It is absurd that every manager, regardless of their credentials (or lack of them) can veto the signings. It is criminal that they could actually force the club (often by massively overpaying) to buy players that the scouting network has judged not good enough for us.
Fixing this, aka having a real DoF and football structure around him, is by far the most important thing we should do. Far more important than any manager we hire, or any player we sign.
Here is where the SAF legacy hinders us. Once giving the complete power to an individual worked , but these days its not the norm. However for us it's tHe uNIted waY and all that bollocks, that really need to get binned. It's so incredibly risky, starting everything from scratch when you change the head coach.
This is the important point. We don't have an attacking strategy: Liverpool do. City obviosuly do. Brighton do. Brentford do. Seems like Spurs are already moving towards this under their new manager.
We rely on moments of inspiration.
I think this is because we lack the attacking talent that we can rely upon. Rashford can still improve, but he is a constant threat. But Martial? Antony? Sancho? If you are a midfielder, or Martinez, Lindehof, Maguire, Shaw, Varane etc would you feel confident playing the ball into any of those three? I wouldn't and it shows. We have to decide whether we smother teams, and indeed rely on moments... or we have an attacking strategy.
We also do not have real attacking full backs.. like Roberston, or Reece James, or Trippier. Shaw, on form, can play this role, but I think he doesn't trust our forwards enough. I don't blame him.
We need to play Rasmus, Rashford and Garnacho, tell them to go out there and cause absolute havoc! That's what Manchester United forwards should always be doing. Pellestri comes in when required. The others I have little time for, sorry.
I would probably agree but if you follow this logic, you can pin everything to "players". Players not doing this, players not doing that, midfielders not showing for the ball, attackers not making runs etc. Surely at this point, after a season under ETH, we (as a team) should be doing those basics right? If we're not doing that, you have to consider what our coaching stuff is actually doing with those players?
We played shite against Wolves, couldn't really get the ball to forwards effectively and were constantly overrun in midfield during defensive transitions. We can probably pin that to Casemiro not being in top form, but manager needs to see this surely and adjust the tactics? Otherwise we will always be a team that "players are not following manager instructions". I refuse to put all the blame on the players at this point for our shitty performances (more important than results at the start of the season).
This!
What are you talking about?
I will say it again.
We do it at home, we did it against Spurs first half, we did it against Forrest.
When the pressure gets tough we already know many of these players revert to type. ETH mentioned that he was unhappy that the team did not play passes forward when the opportunity arose and the fact things got better when Hojlund and Garnacho came into the game says a lot.
Remember Garnacho started the season, ETH wants him in the 11 for a reason, against Wolves we got him the ball consistently isolated one on one with their fullback, he just had a poor game
It doesn't help that away from home against good sides, our main creative midfielder always goes missing
Aye. This brainless approach by the club combined by the ability of a large part of the fanbase instantly creating the cult of the manager feeding on each other and we are in this sad situation.
I do not think this changes without getting new owners, and hopefully they don't give a shit that most of the fanbase equates supporting the manager with supporting the club.
Brighton is a perfect example what you can do when you go practically all in on scouting. Both for players and coaches that is. They knew Potter would get a call sooner or later and they had already planned a successor to fit in with their system. Its just management done right without narcissistic executives thinking they know how football works (eg Boehly)
I disagree.
Onana improves us because he can pass the ball, but the amount of touches he currently has highlights how slow the build up play is. Lots of the ball, passed between the back four and into/back from midfield with opposition teams content to let us have it when we're not hurting them. Yesterday highlights that - first half 57% possession, three shots on goal to Arsenal's 9. Hardly any possession in the final third. Under Van Gaal we had a lot of the ball, did nothing with it.
He's been working with these players for over a year. Most of them look no better or accustomed to what he supposedly wants to do. If a high press is what he wants he hasn't got the players for that - certainly in midfield yesterday where Casemiro and Eriksen don't have the legs. What's his solution? If these players can't do it after a year, are they going to suddenly get it in a month, three months, another year?
As an example, I watched Brighton on Saturday night. They pressed and looked positive on the ball when they got it back with plenty of forward passes. Their wide players could hurt Newcastle because they were getting the ball in dangerous positions, not 40 yards from goal. In general, they looked a front foot team, as a lot of PL teams now do. We still look like a backfoot team.
Our shit away results against top half teams continues. Fans will be or have already started turning on ETH.
For once, I am looking forward to the break, and it’s just 4 weeks into the season.
For once, I am looking forward to the break, and it’s just 4 weeks into the season.
The thing is, how much of that is solely down to personal and what is down to improvement as a team. I would agree to your observation but it doesn't necessarily show, that we improved too much. I think, the step we did last year was also by far bigger in that regard. My stance is, there is progress but it is overstated to a certain degree. I guess often out of fear creating an atmosphere where the manager is in danger. I get that. I for sure don't want him gone. Lets see how he adjusts and how the footballs shapes up when especially Hojlund gets up to speed.
Same here. Although it is really difficult to assess the level of "problematic" right now. The injuries and apparent fitness woes aren't really helping at all, I also think, the group of players we have could be a pretty difficult group to work with. Most of them aren't striking me as super bright and unfortunately, a few of them, Shaw, Martial, Rashford, McTominay never really received coaching that was seemingly at the level required in a top club. I think, our pressing is getting more organized, but the overall shape and the timing is a big issue - when there is a transition, our attacking personal is switching extremely fast which can be a good thing but as some of our defending personal isn't capable of moving the ball as fast, they come under pressure because their passing options become more and more difficult and further and further away. Which will then lead to really bad situation when we lose balls a few moments later, because the opponents then has a lot of uncontested space to work with.
I don't get this at all. Why would a side waste energy "pressing" when all we're doing is passing the ball around the back four before giving it to Onana to punt long towards Rashford? They know they'll get it back and the speed of their transition into attack meant they looked like hurting us when they did.
Hojlund was a positive yesterday and if that's anything to go by he'll do well. At least he gives a focal point to the attack.
That was your problem right there. Passing the ball around in your own half is never going to hurt teams. It was clear that once the ball went forward your players didn't seem to know what to do next. You had more passes than us at half time but most were in your own half and were backwards or sideways. I read somewhere Onana was your 4th highest passer.
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