Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Appletonred]

5th still takes us into the CL this season right?

5th yes, but its nowhere near good enough.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Why would De zerbi leave Brighton to join us? And why on earth would we sack ETH after 2 seasons. we would have to have one of the worse seasons ever and finish bottom halve for him to be sacked. We’ve had 1 game… chill out

We are a top 5 club in world football. I cannot judge ETH on future performances that have not happened yet. Preseason was also terrible but let's revisit around Christmas. The signs are not good but maybe Antony will turn into Salah in November.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

By all accounts, Ten Hag can see this.

I don’t think we prioritised Mount due to position. It probably just made sense to pursue due to his contractual situation.

Can he? Because he signed Mount to be a starter, that's pretty clear at this point. Obviously he knows we need another deeper progressor but whoever that player is won't be given a starting role immediately.

 

[Kag]

You thought we played balanced and entertaining football for the majority of last season? Wow.

It's very clear how much power EtH has been given so far during his tenure. We are briefed nearly every two weeks in seeing how EtH is putting his stamps on the club side, usually positively I'd hope. However it shouldn't have taken a manager to come and achieve these things. For example aligning the academy to the first team, which EtH has done a lot of work on. These are basic things at most clubs.

Let's not even start of the mess Arnold is making with the whole MG situation/investigation, it's good there isn't much of a platform on here to discuss that but oh boy.

But continue in la-la-la land mate. Something with ignorance and bliss.

I’m one of the few who is realistic, I’d suggest. There’s poor bastards on here who think we should be challenging for the title.

They’re going to wet themselves over the coming months. A bit like the way you are pissing your knickers about Richard Arnold and Mason Greenwood, something you know absolutely nothing about.

 

[Red the Bear]

By all accounts, Ten Hag can see this.

I don’t think we prioritised Mount due to position. It probably just made sense to pursue due to his contractual situation.

Why though, he isn't exactly the type of player to do that for.

 

[Kag]

Can he? Because he signed Mount to be a starter, that's pretty clear at this point. Obviously he knows we need another deeper progressor but whoever that player is won't be given a starting role immediately.

Mount will start games, yes. I also think Mount and Bruno will start games in midfield and the outcome will be better than it was last night. But sometimes he won’t start, and that’s fine. A bit like the way somebody like Jack Grealish won’t always start games at City.

It’s a squad game, and we need five or six midfielders who can all start at different points in time without the quality dipping too much. It’s why need another midfielder. Ideally, I’d want another two.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Mount will start games, yes. I also think Mount and Bruno will start games in midfield and the outcome will be better than it was last night. But sometimes he won’t start, and that’s fine. A bit like the way somebody like Jack Grealish won’t always start games at City.

It’s a squad game, and we need five or six midfielders who can all start at different points in time without the quality dipping too much. It’s why need another midfielder. Ideally, I’d want another two.

On that, we can agree on. Amrabat and someone like Thuram would really help us.

 

[erikcred]

We are a top 5 club in world football. I cannot judge ETH on future performances that have not happened yet. Preseason was also terrible but let's revisit around Christmas. The signs are not good but maybe Antony will turn into Salah in November.

Based on pre-season and one league game that we, just fyi, won?! And this after a season in which ETH won a trophy and brought CL back first time of asking.

You haven't even seen our new striker play. Talk about an overreaction.

 

[Kag]

Why though, he isn't exactly the type of player to do that for.

But he’s a player the club wanted, and we got it done. It also makes sense for reasons I’ve outlined above. We just need more. Just like we needed more midfielders last summer and neglected to bring them in.

We’re a half-job Harry club, ultimately. I can already see the issues next summer. Varane will need replacing after another year of unreliable fitness and Lindelof will also be on the wrong side of 30. We’ll probably need two centre halves, alongside the midfielder (or two) we’ll neglect to buy right now, in addition to a genuinely good right back (ours are shite) and a forward to replace the the bloke currently masquerading as Anthony Martial.

That’s five or six more players already. But we don’t plan ahead. We dick around and leave holes to widen and widen while expecting the results to improve. Face it: they won’t.

Chelsea don’t half get some stick, but what they’re doing is admirable in a warped sort of way.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I’m one of the few who is realistic, I’d suggest. There’s poor bastards on here who think we should be challenging for the title.

They’re going to wet themselves over the coming months. A bit like the way you are pissing your knickers about Richard Arnold and Mason Greenwood, something you know absolutely nothing about.

Right, delusional it is.

 

[Kag]

Right, delusional it is.

What is this squad capable of, and what do you really know about the procedures and processes concerning Richard Arnold and Mason Greenwood?

 

[Solius]

One thing I don't really get about his interview after the game. He mentioned we got countered so badly because we gave the ball away, but surely you need to have a better rest defence to account for this.

You can't just have your entire gameplan around not giving it away, because with each attack you will literally either score, or give the ball away. Yes the areas you give the ball away can matter a lot but it's not like having so many players in attacking positions is even making us that dangerous going forward. We looked ponderous on the ball yesterday and then would cheaply give it away and have nobody back to protect the defence. Was odd.

 

[Newtonius]

Wolves just outplayed us tactically and some players had bad individual performances at the key moments where we managed to break them down. The game was screaming for the need to have a quality striker in the box who loves to battle against big central defenders and make room for himself and his peers. Rashford was bullied out of the box.

Was an interesting video until this

"Antony and Garnacho were not at their most effective in 1vs1 situations".

Cant trust the analysis of someone who thinks this pair could be more effective, against a settled defence they couldn't break down a cardboard box.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

maybe if he who shall not be named gets back to levels he had before the absence it will help the attack a bit more as well. Idk just dont see a way we get a backup 9 in here at all. And not sure MG would even be a 9 at this point no idea what shape he is in.

 

[CM]

Hence we need(ed) more than one.

Personally, I think we needed three. Get rid of shit like McTominay and Van de Beek and actually sort out the midfield once and for all.

I think we could've done it with two, on the proviso we didn't piss the Mount funds up the wall.

We're now being linked with Onana from Everton for £50m. For that cumulative spend, we could've gone balls to the wall with a player like Caicedo from Brighton and had a midfield three of Casemiro, him and Fernandes with Mainoo and Eriksen as squad players. We'd still probably need one more on top of that but I'd feel far more secure with that composition of players than what we have now.

 

[ThatGreyKit]

I have read the end of the world reactions and found it laughable.

We were sh1t yesterday, but their was flashes of what this team could look like, we found our wingers 1 v 1 against the fullback but due to a lack of quality and no real target to aim for in the box these moves broke down by overplaying. I expect Hojlund to change that, through being a focal point and interplay as we progress through the 3rds and around the box then look to get onto the end of the moves.

I could see a better high press than we have had since he arrived, winning possession more times in there 3rd but we were not clinical and finishing them off.

We gave the ball away 81 times yesterday, how can you control games and constant pressure when your giving it away every minute, course you are going to get caught on the counter as we have positioned ourselves higher.

The defensive structure will improve as I suspect this is being worked on to negate being so open on the break.

I think some of you forget we won yesterday, nothing wrong with criticism and analysis but f1ck me OTT is an understatement.

There's certain posters here who actually prefer being miserable. I don't know if it's agendas, the fact they might actually get off on complaining all the of the time or if they've played too much FIFA and enjoy starting over with somebody different every year.

Some clearly do it because it gives them more to talk about. Like the enjoyment from a good win will only last for the weekend then they feel a bit empty again. But the feeling they get from complaining about a bad result or something going wrong can last the whole week.

The comebacks are always the same too, the "so I can't question the manager" when nobody is even saying they can't. But it does start to look a bit sad when that's basically their whole online persona.

Nobody hates United as much as United fans on Redcafe.

 

[chay chay okocha]

Good post.

But the bolded part is my biggest concern. I haven't seen anything from our pressing to suggest our approach will work. We don't press anywhere near well enough for this approach, you'll continue to see us exposed in transition time after time.

Agreed, and outside of becoming much better drilled - I think we also really need to be better at tactical fouling ala Fernandinho / Rodri if we want to employ this strategy. For example, I think it may work to have Casemiro put in challenges high up the mid block when teams break the Bruno - Mount line, but he absolutely has to stay on his feet and not get spun so he can make a recovery run. And if he does go into the challenge, he needs to foul the opposition player and stop the ball, preferably if the player still has his back to goal or hasn't started a run. It's been talked about in the Casemiro thread but this is where his mobility is actually most critical. The good news is we have quick defenders - Varane, AWB, Shaw are all pacey (if not as pacey as Kyle Walker), and Onana is comfortable defending a high line - so that does allow us to gamble and go player to player in that defensive transition.

 

[Rozay]

Pretty much every team in England has more than one attacking midfielder at the club. We needed a younger one given the over-reliance on Bruno and the age of Eriksen. I’ve never been overly fussed with Mount, but a younger midfielder of his ilk was always part of the plan. We just need(ed) more.

Even if the spec was to get a younger 10 to understudy Bruno, of all of the possibilities, how do you go for Mason fecking Mount? At 55m with a year left at that?

 

[Kag]

I think we could've done it with two, on the proviso we didn't piss the Mount funds up the wall.

We're now being linked with Onana from Everton for £50m. For that cumulative spend, we could've gone balls to the wall with a player like Caicedo from Brighton and had a midfield three of Casemiro, him and Fernandes with Mainoo and Eriksen as squad players. We'd still probably need one more on top of that but I'd feel far more secure with that composition of players than what we have now.

Mount and Caicedo would have been fine and dandy, but we’re allowing Chelsea to show ambition and bridge the gap.

 

[Kag]

Even if the spec was to get a younger 10 to understudy Bruno, of all of the possibilities, how do you go for Mason fecking Mount? At 55m with a year left at that?

I’d say the fee is fairly standard in this day and age. Whether he is ultimately good enough time will tell, but I can see the thinking behind bringing him in.

 

[ShamrockD]

Bruno & Rashford will never be able to play possession based football.

However, it seems suicidal to build an entire team based on them and change your philosophy, if indeed that is the case and Erik switched his approach. It is better to sell them and build your own team in the end, even if they were the pillars of the team the last years.

Could Bruno be tested in a deep lying role? He was amazing vs Everton last year at home.

 

[DSG]

I’m blown away by the negativity here. I feel like ETH deserves some trust. We were very poor, but it was the first match of the season, and we don’t know how good/bad this Wolves team is yet. They looked pretty well organized IMHO.

Positives are Onana looked really good. Negatives are mainly that the patterns of play we had developed last season don’t look to be there yet. Mount is getting a lot of stick, somewhat logically as he looked more like a 2nd 10 rather than an Eriksen like DLP.

We’re all concerned, and that’s fine, but everything we know about Ten Hag, he’ll adjust.

 

[DJ_21]

We are a top 5 club in world football. I cannot judge ETH on future performances that have not happened yet. Preseason was also terrible but let's revisit around Christmas. The signs are not good but maybe Antony will turn into Salah in November.

But you can judge that he got us top 3 and a trophy last season?

 

[Rozay]

I’d say the fee is fairly standard in this day and age. Whether he is ultimately good enough time will tell, but I can see the thinking behind bringing him in.

If we were after a young 10 I’d have gone after Cherki or even Eze for the same money or less. Or go and get Kudus again for less money (and salary). Mount is simply Mason Mount. And if all he turns out to be is Mason fecking Mount, then it will be an unforgivable decision from the manager for me. The opportunity cost attached to signing Mount for good money and trying to make him a first choice CM is too huge.

The fact that he didn’t immediately sell McTominay last summer upon arrival, and then brought Wout Weghorst to Manchester United had already made me have serious concerns of his judgement. This Mount business may well be the final straw for me personally, unless Mount turns out to be something other than the Mount I have always known.

 

[AjaxCunian]

What is this squad capable of, and what do you really know about the procedures and processes concerning Richard Arnold and Mason Greenwood?

Excuse me if I have missed it, no one is saying we should win the title this season. But EtH has spent enough on a team that already had the likes of Bruno, Rashford, Varane, Shaw, to actually have us playing balanced and entertaining football now.

The performances have been consistently crap, last season was so much grinding out of results. It could be excused because of the horrific schedule, World Cup, injuries, Ronaldo etc. but the excuses cannot longer hold. He doesnt have to win the title, but improvement has to be significant.

I'll dm you my take on the MG situation.

 

[Kag]

If we were after a young 10 I’d have gone after Cherki or even Eze for the same money or less. Or go and get Kudus again for less money (and salary). Mount is simply Mason Mount. And if all he turns out to be is Mason fecking Mount, then it will be an unforgivable decision from the manager for me. The opportunity cost attached to signing Mount for good money and trying to make him a first choice CM is too huge.

The fact that he didn’t immediately sell McTominay last summer upon arrival, and then brought Wout Weghorst to Manchester United had already made me have serious concerns of his judgement. This Mount business may well be the final straw for me personally, unless Mount turns out to be something other than the Mount I have always known.

You don’t like Mount, but the lads you mention carry just as much, if not more, risk. It’s the nature of transfer.

As for the bolded, this is bigger than Ten Hag. McTominay will hang around like a bad smell and will be difficult to shift. It’s obvious he doesn’t rate him given he never puts him in from the start. Weghorst was a punt because the Glazers are pretending that we can’t spend money.

 

[Kag]

Excuse me if I have missed it, no one is saying we should win the title this season. But EtH has spent enough on a team that already had the likes of Bruno, Rashford, Varane, Shaw, to actually have us playing balanced and entertaining football now.

The performances have been consistently crap, last season was so much grinding out of results. It could be excused because of the horrific schedule, World Cup, injuries, Ronaldo etc. but the excuses cannot longer hold. He doesnt have to win the title, but improvement has to be significant.

I'll dm you my take on the MG situation.

You mention the only four genuinely good players on our books upon Ten Hag’s arrival. I think that’s disingenuous. The squad was abhorrent. So fecking bad to the point I think folk have too readily forgotten.

I want performances to improve also. I think we went through decent spells last season, but the lack of a striker kills us.

As I’ve said a few times now, I just think we need more players to allow this to happen. I’m also hoping that Hojlund can make a difference.

 

[izak]

Three seasons ago we were all crying out for Ole to evolve from 4231 to 433, now we've got a manager who's got the balls to switch us tactically to 433, isn't that what the majority of us wanted?

One game after the switch we want him to revert back to what? And some would even want him sacked.

 

[mav_9me]

Three seasons ago we were all crying out for Ole to evolve from 4231 to 433, now we've got a manager who's got the balls to switch us tactically to 433, isn't that what the majority of us wanted?

One game after the switch we want him to revert back to what? And some would even want him sacked.

I didn't see a 3 in midfield against Wolves. It was more of a 1 man CM with a 5 man attack.

 

[Rozay]

You don’t like Mount, but the lads you mention carry just as much, if not more, risk. It’s the nature of transfer.

As for the bolded, this is bigger than Ten Hag. McTominay will hang around like a bad smell and will be difficult to shift. It’s obvious he doesn’t rate him given he never puts him in from the start. Weghorst was a punt because the Glazers are pretending that we can’t spend money.

They carry more risk but also greater reward IMO. And I mentioned only of the spec was as you described - a young understudy for Bruno. Such a player doesn’t need to be risk free. Talent and attitude are the key factors as they are players to ultimately be developed.

And I don’t not like Mount either. I think he’s good, but for an elite team, I see him in the sort of James Milner role of recent years. A capable 12th, 13th, 14th player in a squad who can come in and cover a few roles, but never special enough to be a defacto starter. We had several under Fergie. Players like Fletcher, Butt, Park all played many games without ever being of the status of being considered long term first XI solutions in any role. But definitely valued members and could have runs in the team here and there. That’s what Mount should be, and our initial offer of closer to 40m was more in keeping with what a top club should be paying for him IMO. I fear for the opportunity cost of going big on him.

 

[AjaxCunian]

You mention the only four genuinely good players on our books upon Ten Hag’s arrival. I think that’s disingenuous. The squad was abhorrent. So fecking bad to the point I think folk have too readily forgotten.

I want performances to improve also. I think we went through decent spells last season, but the lack of a striker kills us.

As I’ve said a few times now, I just think we need more players to allow this to happen. I’m also hoping that Hojlund can make a difference.

We clearly weren’t stacked with a world class squad, but that's a steady core of players with top class ability who have shown themselves over the years to be able to near world class ability.

He has now been given the funds to buy HIS players for literally all of the other positions except RB. All of them costing around 50 million pounds or more. Few managers in the world receive more backing than that. Nor do I think our current squad is far behind Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle or Brighton. He just has to get us playing football.

 

[Pronewbie]

 

[Levi1]

Three seasons ago we were all crying out for Ole to evolve from 4231 to 433, now we've got a manager who's got the balls to switch us tactically to 433, isn't that what the majority of us wanted?

One game after the switch we want him to revert back to what? And some would even want him sacked.

We all wanted him to buy a midfielder so that he COULD play 3 in midfield. But he has bought another 10, so we're trying to shoe-horn him in, and it requires a different formation.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Yep.

It has nothing to do with ETH as such, but yep x 10.

I've been banging this drum for years now, and I'd like to stop. But we have made several signings under ETH that are hard to regard as anything but his signings.

Again, it's not about ETH. It's about not moving away from the idea that the "manager" is king. I've said a million times that it's far more important for the future of United to get the structure right than to hire some kind of saviour type "manager".

This is spot on. We've been hearing a lot in the press over the summer about how the club's approach to recruitment has been overhauled and how there's more coordination and a committee in place. However, judging by the profiles of the players we've been targeting recently, I can't help but think it's all just PR and our recruitment is, in practice, still very much manager-driven.

I know Adnan's made some very good posts detailing the changes that have taken place behind the scenes, but making changes on paper to the operating model doesn't mean much if the people who are put into place aren't actually given the right level of authority and accountability.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

But you can judge that he got us top 3 and a trophy last season?

Of course, and we also made progress last season playing-wise. I can also judge that we had a poor preseason and were terrible yesterday against a relegation candidate. I just cannot see where we have improved expect for Onana's skills.

 

[E-mal]

I am really worried for him. He has brought in expensive average players and an old DM that is of good quality for just half a season and my expectation is that he will get worse as this season.
Martinez is decent but we will continue to need players of good height to compensate for his deficiency in that regard.
ETH is a decent manager but he has underrated the magnitude of the job at united and like every manager he will be judged based on recruitment and performance.

 

[poleglass red]

Shows were we are at in midfield right now. Wolves midfield breezing passed us with pace on countless occasions and we bring on Eriksen. I understand the thought process being he may make the killer pass but that game was too finely balanced to have him and Casemiro in the same midfield. Shaw at one stage give him a right rollicking for not closing down the Wolves player. Mainoo is injured, you'd assumed he possibly would have seen the pitch last night.

 

[Hoof the ball]

I would urge caution and patience to fans in the early part of this season.

1. EtH is clearly making a switch from last season's 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3. We need to stop knee-jerking and asking him to "go back to 4-2-3-1". Defaulting to what you're comfortable with isn't progression. It's a guarantee of stagnation. Whilst this tactical transition is happening, it's normal for existing players or new players to not operate fluidly in their new roles in defensive and offensive transitions.

2. Inverted full-backs is a part of ten Hag's tactical design. Stop asking for Mount and/or Bruno to "drop deeper" to receive the ball. It is not the solution. It is reactionary and demonstrate no trust that ten Hag knows what he's doing. It will take a little time before Shaw or AWB can fluidly shift into DM next to Casemiro without error. Accept that and be patient until it works itself out.

3. Taper expectations for Hojlund as a pure goalscorer and look more for his contribution overall in relation to how the new system takes shape. Whether he hits 15-20 goals or not, his success this season will not be defined by whether we "rely on him for goals", but instead whether his skillset as a CF makes everyone around him more efficient in front of goal or improves chance creation.

 

[Red the Bear]

We’re a half-job Harry club, ultimately. I can already see the issues next summer. Varane will need replacing after another year of unreliable fitness and Lindelof will also be on the wrong side of 30. We’ll probably need two centre halves, alongside the midfielder (or two) we’ll neglect to buy right now, in addition to a genuinely good right back (ours are shite) and a forward to replace the the bloke currently masquerading as Anthony Martial.

That’s five or six more players already. But we don’t plan ahead. We dick around and leave holes to widen and widen while expecting the results to improve. Face it: they won’t.

Chelsea don’t half get some stick, but what they’re doing is admirable in a warped sort of way.

Yeah agreed, it could be argued that in the long term we'd be better off not spending at all than as you put it half harry it every window, at least that way we save up cash for a full overhaul and don't end up with deadwood upon deadwood that we both need to replace and can't seem to get rid off.

 

[DJ_21]

Of course, and we also made progress last season playing-wise. I can also judge that we had a poor preseason and were terrible yesterday against a relegation candidate. I just cannot see where we have improved expect for Onana's skills.

You think wolves are relegation candidates? They’ll easily stay up. You’re forgetting they had a new manager, players up their performance when someone new comes in. You seen it with us under Ole.. we went unbeaten after being terrible previously… we was bad yesterday. But it’s just 1 game into the season and we picked up 3 crucial points, we can play brilliant but still get beat, we can play bad and still win. That’s football…