Yeah, I think it's been our most glaring flaw for years - and it's not like we're Pep's Barca balancing it out with high technique.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Yeah, I think it's been our most glaring flaw for years - and it's not like we're Pep's Barca balancing it out with high technique.
I am sure we'll play better vs Spurs.
People claiming Mount should be dropped for McTominay for that game are saying we should go backwards.
We need to see more games with this line-up and system.
People claiming Mount should be dropped for McTominay for that game are saying we should go backwards.
We need to see more games with this line-up and system.
I have faith in him, but I'm a bit worried. I don't think he'll survive a season without significant improvement. We don't have to win trophies, but we have to improve in terms of points and goals at least in the league. If we get new owners they won't have any issue getting a new manager if things aren't improving. Again, I think he's the right man for the job long term, but the league is so competitive, and we still have a lot of players that might down tools easily, including his captain.
Utd were clearly behind Wolves physically in terms of prep, would be foolish to overreact to that given how quickly that can change.
Supposedly wolves had a real good preseason. So they were confident going in. Still, we did not look very cohesive.
"We aspire to be like City"
Wolves had what Spurs had last season. Zero expectations and no pressure.
Time and time again we see sides playing under these circumstances pull off one of their best performances of the season (and this will likely be one of Wolves) because they can just relax and enjoy themselves without fear of reprisals.
Wolves will probably be poor in their next game as people will now expect a performance. United will be better Spurs because both sides are expected to play to win.
ETH has shown himself capable of learning lessons from poor performances so I expect this to continue.
Time and time again we see sides playing under these circumstances pull off one of their best performances of the season (and this will likely be one of Wolves) because they can just relax and enjoy themselves without fear of reprisals.
Wolves will probably be poor in their next game as people will now expect a performance. United will be better Spurs because both sides are expected to play to win.
ETH has shown himself capable of learning lessons from poor performances so I expect this to continue.
If you're about to crash your car, do you hit the break before you crash or after? Why is it bad to be proactive if the signs are there?
I agree that "this doomsday prepping" is a bit over the top, but you are on the other side of the spectrum, the "Nothing is wrong, everything is fine" crowd. And, imo, thats worse than the "preppers" crowd. Just to stick your head in the sand and pretend this hasnt been on the wall a long time now.
I like Ten Hag but I've not been impressed in his signings. I dont trust his eye to spot talents.
And by the looks of it it seems he put all his eggs in the Mount basket. This is a mistake that i think will ultimately be his downfall.
Its his team with his players, he's had a preseason, he should know the league by now and im a bit worried he is not up for it tbh.
After the spurs game we will have a clearer picture.
Hopefully im dead wrong and will have to eat my words!
Agree with this completely, LVG complained of the same and I see ETH doing the same. Prob use it as an excuse if our form doesn’t pick up over the next couple of games. A good excuse in some ways, other ways not so much.
When you setup a midfield like that, you give yourself no chance of playing well.
At some point excuses like these need to stop.
excuses??? Who since SAF has showed us any sort of plans and style of play?
Take into account the same thing that happened at villa last season new manager syndrome. What happened every other club that had a new manager in place. I doubt wolves will have any of that intensity they showed yesterday.
I know there's an overreaction here(my posts included) but we have been shite since that cup win. It's not 1 game. That's a long time.
How the feck have we no update on Voldemort ? Is there any news?
Not really an excuse. United were poor but Wolves were relaxed in their play and this often helps.
You just know their manager told them to go out and enjoy themselves before they stood up to leave the dressing room.
This is the excuse I'm talking about. We were outplayed by Wolves who are favorites for relegation and were playing great football under their new manager with 1 week tenure.
What style of play are you talking about?
And yet, they were able to do better than us who have been trained under ETH for over a year. I guess that's acceptable these days.
19 unbeaten at home now
Not at all. I'm simply referring to how people cope with or without pressure. It's far easier without and it often shows.
Importantly though, where it mattered most, it was United who stood up to the challenge, even though we were dreadful. Wolves had fun, played without fear but when it came to putting the ball in the net, the part where the pressure comes into play, they fluffed it over and over again.
I'm not making any excuses for United because there are none. Just pointing out Wolves played like a side without pressure because, given what's gone on at the club, they had none.
Large thread of last night's game. While I don't always agree with his evaluations and even analysis at times, I think his point regarding our pressing was something we need to correct.
Too many times Antony presses high and our full-back or midfielder is too late or too deep to press the 2nd player. It remedies the initial press from Antony pointless. Happened a few times this game and I remember Klopp took advantage of it in the Anfield disaster.
The solution is probably a dynamic RB going forward in the Cancelo mold while Shaw plays as a 3rd CB in the build up (along with a different midfield profile than Mount). Otherwise the other solution is ditching the system and
Im well aware of all of the statistical arguments for Mount, but this actually doesn’t have as much to do with Mount as it does the other players in our squad. Shaw inverting would be fine if we had someone at RB that was an excellent passer and essentially a third CB, but we don’t. Not to mention when playing a single pivot with two advanced 8’s technical security is just as important as energy/pressing from those CM’s. Bruno and Casemiro are not those types of players, nor is anyone in our front three (barring Antony who has his own issues).
The arguments for an against Mount have been litigated for pages on here, but the bigger issue is that ETH in the first place is insisting on these tactical changes without the personnel to do it. Playing in the shape we did yesterday will have us getting rinsed this season, regardless of how individual players played. So either adjustments are made (and fast), or personnel changes are made. But “giving it time” while doing the same thing as yesterday given what we know about the players in that XI is a poor decision at best and just feeding into the sink cost fallacy.
To give him some credit, he does realise quite quickly when something doesn't work and looks to improve it. He's shown he's not married or tied to a particular idea. My issue is he tries some things that blatantly won't work, that any of us here could have told him. Last season, he had the benefit of the doubt by being new to the PL but now he really should know better.
I cannot figure out for the life of me why Rashford played the whole game as the No.9. He played Sancho as the false 9 all through preseason just to have him at LW when he came on. Baffling.
We won't play as bad as yesterday and I'm sure he'll have us looking much better but I've said for a few years now building around Bruno and Rashford won't lead to big trophies. He's put his faith in them and will be let down. Not that they aren't good players but they are B-level players and these types rarely lead you to the PL title.
I cannot figure out for the life of me why Rashford played the whole game as the No.9. He played Sancho as the false 9 all through preseason just to have him at LW when he came on. Baffling.
We won't play as bad as yesterday and I'm sure he'll have us looking much better but I've said for a few years now building around Bruno and Rashford won't lead to big trophies. He's put his faith in them and will be let down. Not that they aren't good players but they are B-level players and these types rarely lead you to the PL title.
It might also be a case of an overeager Antony doing stuff, that wasn't planned. Or in a different way than planned. Pressing is a team thing, you can't just do it on your own. When you are on your own, you are just running towards the ball. Actually, the worst thing you can do is going for a press just because you see a player in front of you do it as well. This is when you get hammered.
Pressing is doubleedged sword - if you are shit at it, don't do it.
And I think, it is pretty easy to argue against this being an AWB issue, even in Pre season Onana played higher than yesterday. We were pretty deep, which ended in our players scattered all around the pitch (vertically) which makes playing against "a press" for an opponen easier as the space isn't as condensed. Trying to bring that message across since 2 years - usually it is Bruno who gets laudits for looking busy and "being the only one to press". Well yes, if you notice you are the only one to do it, STOP it, because you doing nothing than wasting energy.
I was expecting something like this as well. I mean after all Wolves opened the sides of the pitch to be able to block the middle. Not like Rashford or Sancho would be somebody I expect a smart dribble from, but at least, if the opponent presents you a weakness, at least try to go for it.
Appreciate the response!
I started to notice the implementation of the Pep "box" midfield last night, which is at least someting different from last season, at least in the build-up phase. The first half had a bunch of examples of it; the second half is different. I didn't notice the inversions quite so much.
If this is to be a continual thing then I can see this limiting Shaw's foray into the final third for the sake of defensive solidarity vs. opposition transitions. Curious that Mount drifted wide form his half-space to make the option for Martinez since Shaw no longer the out ball in the wide spaces.
Thanks! Is there a way to rewatch this? It's hard to separate the emotion from the tactical analysis while watching the game.
Appreciate the response!
I started to notice the implementation of the Pep "box" midfield last night, which is at least someting different from last season, at least in the build-up phase. The first half had a bunch of examples of it; the second half is different. I didn't notice the inversions quite so much.
If this is to be a continual thing then I can see this limiting Shaw's foray into the final third for the sake of defensive solidarity vs. opposition transitions. Curious that Mount drifted wide form his half-space to make the option for Martinez since Shaw no longer the out ball in the wide spaces.
If this is going to be a common thing then we either need a new RB now, or Dalot needs to play over AWB. Harsh on him as he was one of the better players and got the assist, but Dalot can invert much better, so they can at least switch it up a bit and allow Shaw to get forward. We'll miss that part of his game too much otherwise.
Just go to the videos thread on this forum. You'll get all the links needed there
Yeah Soccercatch has the full game on there.
If Dalot's the one inverting, Shaw would then drop to form a back 3(which he's generally excellent in doing).
In this set-up, the full-backs won't be overlapping much generally.
Who are the A-level players in the league?
Aside from a period of maybe 2-3 months last year where we genuinely looked good, we are pretty much the same mediocre side we have been since Fergie left. ETH‘s biggest weakness so far has been his recruitment and the club needs to find a long term solution in that department as we cannot keep operating this way. If what he’s doing doesn’t work out are we going to hand the next manager half a billion to spend as well?
Probably more if the Glazers sell.
Without overlapping fullbacks we have to render Antony useless, and find a replacement. Even Rashford has hugely benefitted from an overlapping Shaw in recent years.
That’s no way to operate though.
Well Antony might be useless in general, but inverting full-backs can carve out space for the winger as well. They can benefit from that too. Don't think Rashford needs Shaw overlapping to provide the most value in a team.
Nah I’d stick with the same lineup except Sancho in the middle and Rashford out left. Or hell I’d take a Rashford/Martial/Sancho front 3
That's a whole different argument.
There's been plenty of talk and detailed posts by @Adnan of how our recruitment model has changed the past year. The manager doesn't have full authority on who gets signed or not. It's a decision by committee. If one side doesn't like the player or has reservations, a different target is talked about.
Whether it plays out like that or not would be guess-work from us.
I'd do that as well. Same line-up, but Sancho through the middle and Rashford on the left.
At the risk of opening pandora's box I'll keep it to the unquestionable A-level players which are KDB, Haaland and Salah. Kane was one but obviously just left.
There are players who have potential to reach that or will imminently but not quite there yet.
Only including offensive players as that's what I was referencing in my initial post.
How did Arsenal lead the table for so long last season without a single A-level attacker? I think their attackers and ours are at a pretty similar level(I think ours have a higher ceiling if MG returned and was good again) unless you disagree.
Because they played great team football. Every player in their first 11 played to a very high level.
Saying that Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli to a lesser extent definitely have the talent to reach that top bracket in the league and probably will but they'll need to prove it again this season before I put them in the company of the players I mentioned earlier.
MG isn't really worth considering seeing as we don't know how he'll come back or if he even features in our long term plans. None of our players have the potential to reach that level in my opinion. Hojlund and Garnacho? we just haven't seen enough to be able to say.
You think Martinelli has more talent than Rashford?
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