Wow looks like it's all over after one game. 
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I have been thinking this too recently, Our best players are also our worst in terms of what we want to do as a team.
I know its blasphemous to say in here but I would have transitioned away from needing Bruno and tried to sell him this summer or at most next summer just before he turns 30 and the crazy mileage he has put in his 20s start to show.
Yeah, well said!
Ye Rashford is definitely best for countering which gives us a different option depending on the opponent. It seems like Erik is trying to build a defence to play out from the back, a midfield that’s got a bit of mixture to it and a forward line that as no end product. That Everton game was probably one of Bruno’s best games. He dictated play from deep. Seems like every time we try something and it works we never do it again
The biggest issue I have with the club at this present moment is not the manager but his superior the DOF not having enough of a prominent impact to shape this team in his direction more so than the managers. This club has repeatedly failed whenever the manager has too much impetus with signings and shaping the direction of the team. The signings this season prove that you can't trust a manager with the massive responsibility of spearheading all levels of senior team recruitment, having to coach the team and manage the players on top its too much.
The transition from Eriksen to Mount is a monumental issue. Totally different profile of players, therefore both impact the phase of play in the midfield in a completely different way. This is not an issue of either player being objectively bad or good but rather is a question of does the team have a strong enough foundation at present to deal with the transition in addition to other areas of the field that have sufficient need of being addressed.
What Im trying to suggest is there's no synergy in the approach. City for instance have lost KDB this early season, so go after a press resistant midfielder who brings qualities to the midfield so that the team can recycle the ball in possession efficiently. The player has a history of playing either side of a defensive midfielder (as an 8) so it's less of a gamble to compensate him into the system. That is a strategic approach with a logical sentiment for implementation.
Casemiro for instance is an excellent signing short-term but it's essentially a ticking time bomb because how long will the player maintain playing at a competitive level without a drop off in quality ? So that's a 70M outlay for a position with an aged player, in a team that has dividend subtracting owners which equivalates limited resources. So now United have purchased a defensive 6 and an 8 last season (Eriksen), a new 10 (Mount) has been purchased this season which doesn't bode well because he has all the perquisites of an existing 10 (Bruno) that's already at the club, so now United have to amend this and potentially buy another traditional 8 (Amrabat) to counter the imbalance of the midfield. Oh and don't forget the back up 6 because father time is unpredictable with the existing one. The transfer strategy around the midfield has done nothing but compound the problem it was questionable for Bruno to play as a disciplined 8 and now the club have essentially cloned that problem.
If the DOF from the outset provides the outliers: age, profile, position, qualities it's easier to build from and the scouting network can refine their efforts in finding the players that the DOF has given the instructions to and the months of game visitations, statistical reports and other elements can be used to find these individuals and the team can strengthen from position to position.
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Quite frankly points 1 and 2 are a load of crap. Making tactical changes just for the sake of progression when we dont have the personnel to fit those changes is poor management. That includes both the “advanced 8’s” switch and inverting the fullbacks.
The more I think about this signing the more ridiculous it looks. Unpopular opinion because he did kind of save our season and is a legend in the game, but he is obviously in decline, and the signing itself was evidence of poor planning. Just like his predecessors, ETH seemed to have little interest in addressing that position. That sort of money should have been decisively spent on someone like Rodri, with forward planning. Not a panic stop gap signing. There's a reason why Madrid splashed out so much to refresh their midfield as soon as those big talents were available. It was a Woodward type of signing.
Except it's not. City has been playing this way for years. Arsenal are playing it this year. So calm the feck down and wait for more samples. It was one game !
The tactics haven't really changed between last season and this season - he builds up with a 3-1-6 structure and we did that last season and we're continuing to do that this season. Mount and 4-3-3 and all of that doesn't really compute for me. We should stop using traditional formation numbers like 4-2-3-1 because they're not really suggestive of what the team is doing in each phase of play.
This is our typical build up structure (ignore the 3 attackers, it's a bit more nicely organized than that).
This clearly puts too much of a burden on Casemiro. One error and it's curtains on the transition. This is why everyone (Pep, Arteta, Xavi, Poch etc. etc.) are going with the 3-2 / 2-3 build up structure these days with the inverted fullback or an advanced CB.
One advantage for the 3-1-6 is another attacker in space -- if the initial press is beaten it ends up being really dangerous. You can achieve that through quick movements, third man runs, faster passing but when it's not your day it looks like shit.
Did you not read what I wrote right after that? It has nothing to do with the tactics themselves. It has to do with employing those tactics with players that don’t fit the system at all compared to what City/Arsenal have
Our players don't suit this system. AWB can never be an inverted fullback, he struggles with normal passing.
Casemiro is one of the slowest players in the league. Shaw has really lost a lot of dynamism, United fans overrate him crazily.
Hojlund remains to be seen, but Rashford only contributes in an offensive way and does very little work off the ball except for making runs.
Bruno and Mount don't contribute in retaining possession at all, the likes of Odegaard, Gundogan do this appropiately. It's no comparison really, and it will not work with these type of players.
It is no two advanced #8's either. More like two #10's ahead of Casemiro.
And Casemiro is complete skipped in the buildup, he pushes far higher than Rodri / Rice / Partey do.
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Nice post.
EtH has recruited Mount precisely because he believes that Mount fits his tactical profile of a 4-3-3 and the advanced 8's; and whilst you don't personally believe the personnel fits the changes, ten Hag clearly does. He obviously has his own reasons for this. Perhaps it's because Mount is in the elite percentile of ball carriers. Perhaps it's because Mount has definitively high press statistics. Perhaps it's because Mount has a +70 percentile in progressive passes, and perhaps it's because Mount has a relatively high shot-creation statistic too. These things cumulatively give EtH the confidence that the system change can be implemented.
As for inverting Shaw; well, that's not exactly a surprise given that Luke is a very safe pair of feet in closed spaces and has the requisite amount of pace and acceleration to be a compliment to Casemiro in DM.
EtH is clearly seeing things in these players that you simply don't, hence the questioning of the management as poor.
I agree with that. Apart from many other things, this mentality needs to stop.
Wow looks like it's all over after one win.
Good points. These formation talks are unfortunately too simplified most of the time. Your 2nd point is important in my eyes. I think, we are making it intentionally harder for ourselves. I think, ETH needs to accept, that we have quite a far way to go, before he can use those advanced (advanced because risky) tactics.The tactics haven't really changed between last season and this season - he builds up with a 3-1-6 structure and we did that last season and we're continuing to do that this season. Mount and 4-3-3 and all of that doesn't really compute for me. We should stop using traditional formation numbers like 4-2-3-1 because they're not really suggestive of what the team is doing in each phase of play.
This is our typical build up structure (ignore the 3 attackers, it's a bit more nicely organized than that).
This clearly puts too much of a burden on Casemiro. One error and it's curtains on the transition. This is why everyone (Pep, Arteta, Xavi, Poch etc. etc.) are going with the 3-2 / 2-3 build up structure these days with the inverted fullback or an advanced CB.
One advantage for the 3-1-6 is another attacker in space -- if the initial press is beaten it ends up being really dangerous. You can achieve that through quick movements, third man runs, faster passing but when it's not your day it looks like shit.
One of the first times I've had to disagree with Ten Hag, he shouldn't have said anything like that about Maguire to the media 'proving' himself or ‘leave’.
More worrying signs that he’s giving the media soundbites challenging maguire to fight for his place rather than encouraging him out the door.
Any manager in his position should be desperate to upgrade Maguire with someone up and coming like Todibo or Tapsoba.
Any manager in his position should be desperate to upgrade Maguire with someone up and coming like Todibo or Tapsoba.
It honestly doesn’t matter what mangers say in the media.
He needs a strong game against Spurs
Imo he was probably just being honest. I think what he actually means is if Maguire stays he gotta give his best else just leave. Because slabhead might be very happy just with collecting 200k a week and showing up for training on time.
nice to have a sensible post on here for a change.
The tactics haven't really changed between last season and this season - he builds up with a 3-1-6 structure and we did that last season and we're continuing to do that this season. Mount and 4-3-3 and all of that doesn't really compute for me. We should stop using traditional formation numbers like 4-2-3-1 because they're not really suggestive of what the team is doing in each phase of play.
This is our typical build up structure (ignore the 3 attackers, it's a bit more nicely organized than that).
This clearly puts too much of a burden on Casemiro. One error and it's curtains on the transition. This is why everyone (Pep, Arteta, Xavi, Poch etc. etc.) are going with the 3-2 / 2-3 build up structure these days with the inverted fullback or an advanced CB.
One advantage for the 3-1-6 is another attacker in space -- if the initial press is beaten it ends up being really dangerous. You can achieve that through quick movements, third man runs, faster passing but when it's not your day it looks like shit.
Appreciate the response!
I started to notice the implementation of the Pep "box" midfield last night, which is at least someting different from last season, at least in the build-up phase. The first half had a bunch of examples of it; the second half is different. I didn't notice the inversions quite so much.
If this is to be a continual thing then I can see this limiting Shaw's foray into the final third for the sake of defensive solidarity vs. opposition transitions. Curious that Mount drifted wide form his half-space to make the option for Martinez since Shaw no longer the out ball in the wide spaces.
The problem wasn't the failure to stop Wolves from progressing through the midfield, it was giving them the ball for free almost every time we crossed midfield with it. Stop doing that so much and the runs through midfield don't happen in the firstplace.
Eriksen was brought on so that he could dictate the play with the ball and he did a good job of it. The problem was that everyone else still kept giving the fecking ball away.
So why didn't it work against Wolves? Every team in the PL are happy to let AWB see a lot of the ball during our build up play. They can man mark us and leave AWB unmarked (so he can provide an assist...).
Fernandinho lasted a long time, and I think changing the mentality was also on Ten Hag’s mind. Can we stop picking apart players and coaches who actually saved our season last year? Criticize him for Antony, fine, but Lisandro and Casemiro and Eriksen were excellent throughout the year.
AWB is better suited to us how Walker is suited to City. Limit his offensive responsibility. Keep him back there to form part of the back three when Shaw moves into midfield......
But we'll see, I guess.
Arsenal are doing it with White and Zinchenko. Come on now. Yes, AWB can't do it but Shaw definitely can do it.
Again ,point is its only one game into the season. We are overreacting
The system in possession shouldn't but that much of a burden on Casemiro as either one of the fullbacks or Martinez should be moving into the midfield to lessen the potential of an overload. What the last game showed was our inability to control the ball. We held onto the ball well in the last 15 or so minutes of the first half which showed how the system works as we were averaging ~70% possession during that time. The picture you show is wrong in that the wingers hold high and wide with the two tens underlapping. Then the fullbacks can come into the midfield and help control possession there. It's about creating as many triangles as possible.The tactics haven't really changed between last season and this season - he builds up with a 3-1-6 structure and we did that last season and we're continuing to do that this season. Mount and 4-3-3 and all of that doesn't really compute for me. We should stop using traditional formation numbers like 4-2-3-1 because they're not really suggestive of what the team is doing in each phase of play.
This is our typical build up structure (ignore the 3 attackers, it's a bit more nicely organized than that).
This clearly puts too much of a burden on Casemiro. One error and it's curtains on the transition. This is why everyone (Pep, Arteta, Xavi, Poch etc. etc.) are going with the 3-2 / 2-3 build up structure these days with the inverted fullback or an advanced CB.
One advantage for the 3-1-6 is another attacker in space -- if the initial press is beaten it ends up being really dangerous. You can achieve that through quick movements, third man runs, faster passing but when it's not your day it looks like shit.
https://tactical-board.com/1f16b4bf6f513e_bfuk
This should be how it looks in the offensive phase. Progression into the penalty box is always going to be difficult when the opposition plays 2 banks of four and defends so compactly. Also, whilst not playing well and losing the ball constantly we still restricted Wolves to 5 shots in the first half. So even defensively it wasn't horrendous, as had we kept up the same stats they would have had 10 shots total. The second half however, was an even bigger gongshow than the first. The issues we had yesterday weren't necessarily tactical ones, they were personnel issues. Garnacho's inability to control a ball or pass, Rashford's inability to commit effort or control a ball, the whole teams lack of movement off the ball are not tactical issues. The personnel issues meant that instead of being able to progress the ball up the pitch in a controlled manner we would lose the ball or when we did get the ball up the pitch the player who received it was usually alone at a numerical disadvantage. Also due to the players inability to control or pass the ball, we picked up early yellow cards which meant we couldn't be as aggressive in the press as we needed to be. For instance when Garnacho made a terrible pass towards Shaw which cause Shaw to have to foul the opposition player and his subsequent yellow. This meant he had to stand off players for the rest of the game creating more space for counterattacks.
Had we been able to keep the ball the two number tens will drag opposition midfielders out of position creating gaps, same with the striker and their defenders. The whole point of playing the two tens is to create overloads at the back so that the defense has to decide who to mark. When you lose the ball 81 times however, this is impossible.
Appreciate this post. I had been very down after yesterday. Maybe you are right. Patience would be the word I guess.
I think the reason we started the inversions less in the second half is because of the early yellow card to Shaw, and Martinez coming off. Martinez and Shaw are instrumental to making the system work, and we also have to be aggressive in the press and aggressive in the tackle for it to work defensively. Defensively it worked in the first half as we restricted them to 5 shots (still too much, but we were playing poorly) whereas in the second half where we weren't inverting they had 18 shots. The whole reason to play the two 10's in Mount and Bruno is to create the triangles out wide in those half spaces you mention. So instead of having the fullbacks over/underlapping you are having the 10 do it instead. We saw this a few times last season where Bruno would run the channel and Antony would play him in. It's all moot though when you lose the ball 81 times as we did yesterday.Appreciate the response!
I started to notice the implementation of the Pep "box" midfield last night, which is at least someting different from last season, at least in the build-up phase. The first half had a bunch of examples of it; the second half is different. I didn't notice the inversions quite so much.
If this is to be a continual thing then I can see this limiting Shaw's foray into the final third for the sake of defensive solidarity vs. opposition transitions. Curious that Mount drifted wide form his half-space to make the option for Martinez since Shaw no longer the out ball in the wide spaces.
Tifo did a video talking about the tactics. Basically pressed everyone but AWB because they know he's a weakness on the ball.
As much as I like him he needs to wake the feck up and realise the importance of some controlled possession and keeping the ball abit. Right now, every ball is a through ball every pass is a killer pass every move is a transition move. This kind of chaotic ping pong football isn’t sustainable at all, if he doesn’t see that then get ready for some more tonkings like last season and this time the fans won’t be on his side if we get another 6 or 7 humiliations from rivals.
Another good post.
Losing the ball 81 times is a huge confounder to analyzing anything. It doesn't matter who is playing or what formation, that just screws everything up.
I'd prefer both of them over Shaw in that role. Shaw has been hanging on his form of two years ago, he has class ability but lacks a lot of application, hunger and speed.
Main issue for me is the buildup, Arsenal and City's midfield actually help with the buildup whereas there defenders are also more capable on the ball. We were playing two different teams yesterday, on in our half, the other one in the opponent's half.
Another factor was the ridiculous US tour which was more about making money than enabling a good pre season preparation to happen. Loads of travelling, time zone changes and a daft extra game against Wrexham, then two in two days just so they could fleece the Irish fans.
Would be so much better to have pre season in Europe and limit the travel, giving the manager maximum time to work with the players.
Would be so much better to have pre season in Europe and limit the travel, giving the manager maximum time to work with the players.
As a team, we really lack athleticism and strength. The fact that it’s been overlooked makes me question Ten Hag. Pace and power are going to be a real problem for us this season.
Last night was risky but it’s another win at Old Trafford.
The unbeaten run must be looking pretty impressive at home…but I can’t find the current stats.
The unbeaten run must be looking pretty impressive at home…but I can’t find the current stats.
Can we not wait until the shit hits the fan before claiming it will (after one fecking game!!!!)? We were shite last night but we won and we can only hope there is improvement, we don’t know anything. This doomsday prepping is so pointless.
I 100% trust this manager to come good, but this start is kind of scary. I have pinned all hopes of United winning and becoming dominant again on him being a very good coach. Yet yesterday, it felt like Ole's brand of football. I am sure that him being ok with yesterday was just for the cameras and he would be frustrated as well, but the formation and players he chose was completely wrong. Just hope he would get United to play some nice passing and keep the ball instead of trying to play on the counter as we are unable to keep the ball at all.
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