England Euro 2024 Squad and Discussion

[Mike Smalling]

But he has shown it for England whereas Foden...

Bellingham for England: 31 games, 4 goals, 5 assists
Foden for England: 36 games, 4 goals, 8 assists

What is that Bellingham has shown that Foden hasn't?

 

[bosnian_red]

Bellingham for England: 31 games, 4 goals, 5 assists
Foden for England: 36 games, 4 goals, 8 assists

What is that Bellingham has shown that Foden hasn't?

Good performances in tournaments? Bellingham is the guy you want to build around for England. Foden isn't on his level in general but also has never done anything for England

 

[LankyHoggie]

Southgate is not a very good manager, I don’t think he’s even remotely as good as the mid table PL managers these days, I don’t think he’s as good as Dyche for what its worth.
However, he has a phenomenal level of talent to his disposal.

I genuinely think that Southgate should’ve used the model of the most dominant international team in recent times (10-12 Spain).
That team’s style of play was dictated by Barcelona players.
Use that model, and pick every single English Manchester City player and let these players dictate how the team plays.
Yes, that includes Rico Lewis at LB or in midfield, Grealish, and I would count Cole Palmer in that (he was brought up in that system).

Instead, he went for a team full of random
players, many of them never won anything of note, some had good seasons for midtable teams but you have to pick players that know how to win and perform on the biggest stage against the very best (CL semi finals and finals).

The late 90’s - early 00’s England team would’ve done better with Andy Cole up top than Alan Shearer for the same reasons imo, even if the latter is the better footballer.

Bellingham as his Gundogan, Saka / Palmer as his Bernardo and if Kane can’t stay away from midfield as if he’s prime bursting with energy Wayne Rooney and can’t play the Haaland role then play Watkins or Toney instead.

 

[#07]

England's problems to me really don't seem that complicated, but it seems that the vast majority of fans and pundit don't see it as I do. I'd whittle down to a few key issues:

Left back - Taking only one, injured left footed fb is turning out to be as stupid as it looked when the squad was announced. It effects our balance to such a degree that I'd be tempted to play Saka there until Shaw is back, especially because we are stacked with Saka alternatives for RW (Foden, Palmer, Bowen).

Deep midfield - Every top team who wants to control games MUST have a player who can take the ball in tight areas on the half turn off the defence, and instinctively play short, sharp forward passes with as few touches as possible, and have good pass selection. England have only 2 players who fit this mould. Wharton and Mainoo. You have to play one of them. I'm so against those calling for a trio of Rice, Bellingham or Foden. None of them meet that criteria for me, and against a good side we would be absolutely bossed as a result.

Attacking Midfield and Kane - We need to get passed this obsession with playing all your "most talented" players. For most fans and pundits this is currently Foden, Bellingham, Palmer, and Kane. Unfortunately, all 4 of them want to occupy the same spaces. There is room for two of them max. If you play Kane, you simply have to play runners either side of him to break the back line. So that is Bowen or Saka on the left, and probably Gordon on the right. If you play Watkins instead of Kane and he holds a position on the shoulder of the last defender, you could maybe get away with playing a Foden or Palmer type on one of the wings to drift into central areas alongside the 10 without creating too much congestion. However, only on the side where an overlapping FB will provide natural width , so currently only on the right.

Barring maybe the LB issue due to baffling initial squad selection, most of this can be easily fixed with the squad he has chosen. Southgate just needs to grow a pair, and start to prioritise balance and system over names.

Agreed.

Southgate has set us up for failure. If we win this it'll be inspire of him not because of him. He's completely clueless.

The squad is lacking options in vital areas and he's exacerbating those deficiencies with his dud tactics.

 

[TheGame]

I'd say the first screw up was a year ago at the start of the qualification when southgate backed the likes of Henderson, Philips, Shaw and Maguire. He didn't need to drop them entirely but it would have been sensible to phase them out a bit. Deciding to abandon that 2 matches before the tournament was compounding a stupid decision.
He could have had trent in midfield for qualification and it might possibly have worked (i doubt it) or at least they'd have ironed out some of the problems with it. He could have done a lot of things really but every decision he's made has been a really poor one.

Maguire has done fine, he shouldn’t be in the same category as the other two.

 

[Gio]

I'd say the first screw up was a year ago at the start of the qualification when southgate backed the likes of Henderson, Philips, Shaw and Maguire. He didn't need to drop them entirely but it would have been sensible to phase them out a bit. Deciding to abandon that 2 matches before the tournament was compounding a stupid decision.
He could have had trent in midfield for qualification and it might possibly have worked (i doubt it) or at least they'd have ironed out some of the problems with it. He could have done a lot of things really but every decision he's made has been a really poor one.

Yeah that was an obvious failure of forward planning. He’s wasted a lot of opportunities to try out the new combinations, get a feel for what works, what issues he might need to resolve as a result. In principle there is nothing wrong with certain individual player choices he’s made, it’s his failure to test a system in place around them and how it might need to be adapted.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Good performances in tournaments? Bellingham is the guy you want to build around for England. Foden isn't on his level in general but also has never done anything for England

Maybe. I guess Bellingham did have a very good 2022 World Cup.

 

[WeePat]

Bellingham for England: 31 games, 4 goals, 5 assists
Foden for England: 36 games, 4 goals, 8 assists

What is that Bellingham has shown that Foden hasn't?

Bellingham was one of England's standout players at the WC. I don't think Foden has had this kind of impact on England at a tournament.

 

[caid]

Maguire has done fine, he shouldn’t be in the same category as the other two.

Some were better bets than others. Maguire being injured was a fairly predictable risk. He didn't even need to drop him, just give Guehi 20 / 30 mins at the end of the match. He probably should have known Guehi was who he was turning to if it didn't work out rather than giving 3 / 4 players a chance in the final 2 games.

He could have brought Henderson and Philips and just trusted them to perform for him because they were familiar with the team and system - at least follow through. I dont know how injured Maguire is too, maybe bringing him instead of Dunk or whoever would have made sense after backing him throughout the qualifiers.
Dunk, Gomez and Konsa probably won't kick a ball this tournament. One is more than enough for defensive cover, leave one behind and bring Grealish or Rashford as a back up plan.

 

[G-manc]

The decision not to take another left-back other than Shaw was ridiculous.

There’s no natural width with Trippier and Foden.

He should have taken Chilwell or Tyrick Mitchell.

 

[TheGame]

The decision not to take another left-back other than Shaw was ridiculous.

There’s no natural width with Trippier and Foden.

He should have taken Chilwell or Tyrick Mitchell.

He should have taken both of them and not sure. Or even Lewis Hall.

 

[TheGame]

Some were better bets than others. Maguire being injured was a fairly predictable risk. He didn't even need to drop him, just give Guehi 20 / 30 mins at the end of the match. He probably should have known Guehi was who he was turning to if it didn't work out rather than giving 3 / 4 players a chance in the final 2 games.

He could have brought Henderson and Philips and just trusted them to perform for him because they were familiar with the team and system - at least follow through. I dont know how injured Maguire is too, maybe bringing him instead of Dunk or whoever would have made sense after backing him throughout the qualifiers.
Dunk, Gomez and Konsa probably won't kick a ball this tournament. One is more than enough for defensive cover, leave one behind and bring Grealish or Rashford as a back up plan.

Maguire is injured so definitly can’t play. You could have probably dropped Dunk and maybe brought an attacker however he hasn’t even used Palmer.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

Yeah he's not playing in this tournament is he.

Even if he is somehow deemed fit enough at some point, it's mental to just chuck him into a Euros game after being injured for like 5 months

 

[G-manc]

He should have taken both of them and not sure. Or even Lewis Hall.

It’s made even more ridiculous by Gomez and Konsa both going, who can cover RB and probably won’t see a minute between them.

 

[Ricardo de la Vega]

What I will say is this; the fact that there is so much sustained media discussion over how INEOS like Southgate, and how Southgate is Ashworth's pick makes me worry, very very strongly, for the future, because it is pretty obvious that they just dont understand football if that is true.

 

[giorno]

It's certainly not helped, but he had no issue picking Phillips and Maguire when they weren't playing.

Lack of alternatives

I genuinely think that Southgate should’ve used the model of the most dominant international team in recent times (10-12 Spain).
That team’s style of play was dictated by Barcelona players.
Use that model, and pick every single English Manchester City player and let these players dictate how the team plays.
Yes, that includes Rico Lewis at LB or in midfield, Grealish, and I would count Cole Palmer in that (he was brought up in that system).

Nice thought. You forgot the most important part though: give Rodri an english passport and convince him to play for England before he got called up by Spain

Yeah that was an obvious failure of forward planning. He’s wasted a lot of opportunities to try out the new combinations, get a feel for what works, what issues he might need to resolve as a result. In principle there is nothing wrong with certain individual player choices he’s made, it’s his failure to test a system in place around them and how it might need to be adapted.

And I reiterate: a year ago, who were the midfield options to replace Phillips and Henderson?

I see it the opposite. There's nothing wrong with not having a system in place yet, it's the individual choices where he's fecking up

 

[caid]

Maguire is injured so definitly can’t play. You could have probably dropped Dunk and maybe brought an attacker however he hasn’t even used Palmer.

Palmer is a 10 or a right winger that cuts inside, he won't solve any problems. Its another example of a player he doesn't need and probably wont use.

 

[Alex99]

Lack of alternatives

I'd argue that's the case with players like Rashford, and yet

 

[caid]

Lack of alternatives

Nice thought. You forgot the most important part though: give Rodri an english passport and convince him to play for England before he got called up by Spain

And I reiterate: a year ago, who were the midfield options to replace Phillips and Henderson?

I see it the opposite. There's nothing wrong with not having a system in place yet, it's the individual choices where he's fecking up

Gallagher and Trent apparently. Bellingham is still an option and its not like Mainoo is some obscure nobody who came out of nowhere. If your going to stick with them then follow through and bring them.

 

[TheGame]

Palmer is a 10 or a right winger that cuts inside, he won't solve any problems. Its another example of a player he doesn't need and probably wont use.

He could have easily been coming on for Bellingham in the first 2 games.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Lack of alternatives

Nice thought. You forgot the most important part though: give Rodri an english passport and convince him to play for England before he got called up by Spain

And I reiterate: a year ago, who were the midfield options to replace Phillips and Henderson?

I see it the opposite. There's nothing wrong with not having a system in place yet, it's the individual choices where he's fecking up

The clamour was for JWP which says it all, this quote shows Southgate’s been well aware of the lack of quality in CM (that comment about Phillips yesterday was bad though and sounded desperate)

 

[giorno]

The clamour was for JWP which says it all, this quote shows Southgate’s been well aware of the lack of quality in CM (that comment about Phillips yesterday was bad though and sounded desperate)

Cool beans. Mainoo had how many first team appearances by, say November 2023?

James Ward-Prowse. That's who was the alternative to replace Phillips and Henderson. Him and Gallagher. Allright

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Cool beans. Mainoo had how many first team appearances by, say November 2023?

James Ward-Prowse. That's who was the alternative to replace Phillips and Henderson. Him and Gallagher. Allright

Um I was agreeing btw

 

[giorno]

Um I was agreeing btw

Mine is a genuine question. I'm not trying to make a point here

 

[SirBillNic]

Serious question: how would the team we've seen so far fare against this team:

Mainoo--Wharton
Palmer--Eze--Gordon
Watkins​

Keeping the back 5 the same. Throw Bowen in there in place of Eze or Palmer if you feel that would be better.

 

[Hammondo]

Serious question: how would the team we've seen so far fare against this team:

Mainoo--Wharton
Palmer--Eze--Gordon
Watkins​

Keeping the back 5 the same. Throw Bowen in there in place of Eze or Palmer if you feel that would be better.

It's a bit defensively weak, I would rather Rice than Eza allowing the other 2 some freedom.

 

[christy87]

If his plan was to play Trent in midfield, he should of brought Rashford, who would be his ideal winger, Trent’s strengths is cross field balls, foden, saka, Kane Bellingham are all come short players, basically Trent’s weakness is exposed here, play Gordon, to stretch the field and it would play into Trent’s strengths and allow Kane a bit more freedom in the middle of the park.

 

[SirBillNic]

It's a bit defensively weak, I would rather Rice than Eza allowing the other 2 some freedom.

More defensively weak than Trent/Rice/Bellingham/Foden? Idk about that.

I think Wharton is the closest thing in the squad to a proper DM.

 

[Hammondo]

More defensively weak than Trent/Rice/Bellingham/Foden? Idk about that.

I think Wharton is the closest thing in the squad to a proper DM.

He's not a DM though, and he definitely cannot defend alone. That midfield defensively is weaker than what we currently have.

 

[InspiRED]

Seems like this thread has attracted many of the gang that would troll us over Ole. Only thing haven’t seen yet is “it’s not a game of FIFA on PlayStation”. Like flies to shit. .

 

[LankyHoggie]

Nice thought. You forgot the most important part though: give Rodri an english passport and convince him to play for England before he got called up by Spain

Spain did alright without Messi didn’t they?

The gap between Messi and the forwards Spain had was far more significant than the gap between Rodri and Rice.

 

[caid]

Cool beans. Mainoo had how many first team appearances by, say November 2023?

James Ward-Prowse. That's who was the alternative to replace Phillips and Henderson. Him and Gallagher. Allright

Just returned from an injury in pre season so basically 0. Debut season before. He was in the under age groups and theres been enough talk about him for a while that he should have been on his radar at least.
I'd criticise him more for not recognising he needed to mix things up and after sticking with Henderson and Phillips to not bring either. Phillips was so bad he couldn't to be fair but Henderson seemingly finished the season at Ajax quite well. I think having him around to guide the likes of Mainoo and Wharton could help but just recognising that they needed to refresh the team and it was going to be a first tournament for a lot of players would have helped with expectation. I think he could and should be much further along with refreshing the team and there should have been a couple more safish bets in terms of grealish and rashford and a left back in the mix which has been an obvious problem for years and years.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Serious question: how would the team we've seen so far fare against this team:

Mainoo--Wharton
Palmer--Eze--Gordon
Watkins​

Keeping the back 5 the same. Throw Bowen in there in place of Eze or Palmer if you feel that would be better.

The team you mentioned would wax the starting XI from yesterday. Wharton would find Eze and Palmer in so many pockets that Rice would be trying cover on his own

 

[FootballHQ]

Yeah that was an obvious failure of forward planning. He’s wasted a lot of opportunities to try out the new combinations, get a feel for what works, what issues he might need to resolve as a result. In principle there is nothing wrong with certain individual player choices he’s made, it’s his failure to test a system in place around them and how it might need to be adapted.

Kalvin Phillips was starting still as recently as October v Italy. That was always going to be a problem if he flopped on loan which he did spectacularly at West Ham. Henderson also came on in that game.

Southgate did play TAA in midfield v Malta and Andorra but he didn't really stand out v either. However if he really believed in him in that position he'd have played him against Italy at home and Ukraine away as that's the standard of opposition where you can assess whether it could genuinely work or not.

Guehi also came on as a sub in that game so again he could've rotated a bit with Maguire and got a few more starts.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Spain did alright without Messi didn’t they?

The gap between Messi and the forwards Spain had was far more significant than the gap between Rodri and Rice.

You’re significantly underrating those Spanish forwards, some of which are all timers.

And overrating what a few City random players would bring to the team. There’s a reason you don’t see many International teams Try to mimic Peps style. It takes endless drilling of pressing patterns and strict positional rules in possession, which International sides just don’t have the time for. Not to that level of detail. Just getting an extra couple of them in (that aren’t game breakers anyways) won’t turn England into Man City lite.

 

[giorno]

Spain did alright without Messi didn’t they?

The gap between Messi and the forwards Spain had was far more significant than the gap between Rodri and Rice.

Messi wasn't the guy who made their football work. Xavi was. Did you see what happens to City when Rodri is out?

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

What I'd play against Slovenia:

Gordon Kane Saka
Rice Palmer
Mainoo
Trippier Guehi Stones Walker
Pickford​

 

[caid]

Messi wasn't the guy who made their football work. Xavi was. Did you see what happens to City when Rodri is out?

Helped to have Busquets and Iniesta too, and pique. Fabregas came from same academy.
Suppose getting alonso and ramos to understand that system was a real leap of faith /s.

 

[LankyHoggie]

Messi wasn't the guy who made their football work. Xavi was. Did you see what happens to City when Rodri is out?

City were a dominant side prior to Rodri, when Fernandinho played that role.
Rodri is the best at what he does, but England doesn’t have a KDB either, and Germany 14 didn’t have a Robben or Ribery, and France 18 won it with a striker who didn’t score a single goal.

You’re significantly underrating those Spanish forwards, some of which are all timers.

And overrating what a few City random players would bring to the team. There’s a reason you don’t see many International teams Try to mimic Peps style. It takes endless drilling of pressing patterns and strict positional rules in possession, which International sides just don’t have the time for. Not to that level of detail. Just getting an extra couple of them in (that aren’t game breakers anyways) won’t turn England into Man City lite.

I loved David Villa he was a top player, Torres wasn’t the best version of himself.
Even at their best they were two of the best strikers in the world, but they weren’t Messi, who isn’t a normal football player.

I’m not saying England can play to the level of Man City, but they don’t have to.
At the bare minimum they would look like as a somewhat cohesive side and not like a group of strangers who met for the first time.

 

[giorno]

Helped to have Busquets and Iniesta too, and pique. Fabregas came from same academy.
Suppose getting alonso and ramos to understand that system was a real leap of faith /s.

Yes. And having 10 months a year to work with those guys. But then they went to the NT and brought their football with them. The thing is, Spain was successful with Xavi - and never without him. In the same way City look like a completely different side without Rodri. That would be asking a lot of Rico Lewis, who isn't precisely a regular for City yet...