England Euro 2024 Squad and Discussion

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Judas said:
It's horrible to be feeling so similarly to the last Euros final. Just a massive feeling of what if about it again. Handbrake on football is a curse I want gone, especially with the talent we have.
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Yeah I am sick of Safegate stifling our best talents because he has a negative mindset. Go out and make them worry about you not the other way round.
 
I feel like Southgate deserves a bit more respect. He’s made mistakes like every coach, but regardless of what he did, anything less than England winning the tournament meant he was always going to be criticised and always going to be the fall guy.

At the end of the day England were beaten by a better football team, that’s all there is to it really.
 
Joel Miller said:
I feel like Southgate deserves a bit more respect. He’s made mistakes like every coach, but regardless of what he did, anything less than England winning the tournament meant he was always going to be criticised and always going to be the fall guy.

At the end of the day England were beaten by a better football team, that’s all there is to it really.
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Yeah, but losing in similar fashion as in the last final says a lot. England plucked their way to the final and even then when they equalised they again went on the defensive instead of seizing the momentum.
 
FootballHQ said:
Lucky to get to the final.

Need a possession based coach in next.
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Disagree. England will never be better than Spain at being Spain. This tournament showed England have enough attacking talent to score against parked buses without attacking well anyways. Build a great transition side - which fits the current profile of players - capable of beating teams like Spain or France
 
Carragher made a good point that Spain, played eactly the same in the group stages as they did in the final. Just totally belief in that system. I don't know what we were even attempting.

Just dire from start to finish. I rate Southgate, at all, he useless, but the previous tournaments were not this bad under him. At least, they has some sort of plan.

Against france in the WC, I actually thought we were on to something. More attacking, looked dangerous, at times. I hoped a lesson would be learned.
 
Joel Miller said:
I feel like Southgate deserves a bit more respect. He’s made mistakes like every coach, but regardless of what he did, anything less than England winning the tournament meant he was always going to be criticised and always going to be the fall guy.

At the end of the day England were beaten by a better football team, that’s all there is to it really.
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Other than most of the first half of the game vs Netherlands, at what point did England look like a better team than any of the opponents they faced?

England and Southgate's true level at this tournament was being eliminated in the last 16 by Slovakia, and its Bellingham we had to thank for averting that, not Southgate.

Its just the same story for me. We always get this stuff about him not getting enough credit or respect, but if you watch the games the pattern is the same every time. He gets a very good group of players to constantly underperform and is then bailed out by the individual talent of the players. That's not how good management works.

Good management is the Spain team looking like a well coached and well organised unit with a clear gameplan, players picked to suit it, and tactically out performing every opponent. Not sacrificing the team having any balance to try and shoehorn Foden and Bellingham into the same line up, because you have no idea what you actually want either of them to do.
 
noodlehair said:
Other than most of the first half of the game vs Netherlands, at what point did England look like a better team than any of the opponents they faced?

England and Southgate's true level at this tournament was being eliminated in the last 16 by Slovakia, and its Bellingham we had to thank for averting that, not Southgate.

Its just the same story for me. We always get this stuff about him not getting enough credit or respect, but if you watch the games the pattern is the same every time. He gets a very good group of players to constantly underperform and is then bailed out by the individual talent of the players. That's not how good management works.

Good management is the Spain team looking like a well coached and well organised unit with a clear gameplan, players picked to suit it, and tactically out performing every opponent. Not sacrificing the team having any balance to try and shoehorn Foden and Bellingham into the same line up, because you have no idea what you actually want either of them to do.
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Agree with this, decide how you want the team to play, then pick a squad that fits the style, but can be adaptable. The obsession with picking all the top players and squeezing them into a side even if it is a position they are not comfortable playing is madness. It isn't only Southgate who has done this. Stop listening to the media about this player should be in and that player should be in. Go and watch players and make your own choices and if it p*sses someone off then tough luck.
 
giorno said:
Disagree. England will never be better than Spain at being Spain. This tournament showed England have enough attacking talent to score against parked buses without attacking well anyways. Build a great transition side - which fits the current profile of players - capable of beating teams like Spain or France
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You don't need to be better than Spain at being Spain! You coach possession oriented football so that they don't absolutely wet themselves under any sort of pressure or rely on long kicks from Pickford because they're panicking so badly as Rice isn't capable of receiving the ball off defenders. A possession oriented England U21 team beat Spain 1-0 in the U21 final. They had 34% of the ball but more shots on target than the opposition, they weren't built as a transition team.

Wharton in Rice's role, Foden and Mainoo ahead of them and Palmer off the right with Bellingham false nine. Actually use Trent. Play out with actual footballers. I don't think this England team is a transition side at all, we aren't the team which has Sterling and Rashford anymore.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Agree with this, decide how you want the team to play, then pick a squad that fits the style, but can be adaptable. The obsession with picking all the top players and squeezing them into a side even if it is a position they are not comfortable playing is madness. It isn't only Southgate who has done this. Stop listening to the media about this player should be in and that player should be in. Go and watch players and make your own choices and if it p*sses someone off then tough luck.
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Bellingham and Foden is going to be the current era of Gerrard and Lampard. We will keep trying to play them in the same team and it's not going to work well.

I don't think Southgate is one that has gone with the players the media and fans want. He's consistently picked a few players that almost everybody has wanted to be dropped. He fully backed Maguire and kept picking him. Even when he wasn't getting games for United. Henderson, Sterling, and Mount kept getting picked when most wanted them dropped as well. Kane would have been dropped during the Euros if the fans got their way.

He's also refused to start Grealish when the entire country was begging for him to start.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Agree with this, decide how you want the team to play, then pick a squad that fits the style, but can be adaptable. The obsession with picking all the top players and squeezing them into a side even if it is a position they are not comfortable playing is madness. It isn't only Southgate who has done this. Stop listening to the media about this player should be in and that player should be in. Go and watch players and make your own choices and if it p*sses someone off then tough luck.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head with listening to the media. Unfortunately its very difficult not to as England manager because our media is full of idiots with inflated egos who think they're there to control the narrative rather than report on it, but the national team needs a manager who is brave enough to do that because otherwise its just going to be the 2004 team all over again.

A few journos had a go about Mainoo not being physical enough after the warm up game, which was utter garbage when the alternative was Gallagher or a fullback, but low and behold Southgate panicked and changed it. He dropped Rashford which was fine but then refused to use either of the players brought in to replace him because the media gave both Foden and Bellingham the big build up and weren't interested in Eze or Gordon. If you can change your whole plan at the drop of a hat or first murmer of discontent like that, it means you never had a plan in the first place. Doesn't give you much chance when you come up against opponents like Spain who very definitely do have a plan as well as a talented crop of players.
 
noodlehair said:
I think you've hit the nail on the head with listening to the media. Unfortunately its very difficult not to as England manager because our media is full of idiots with inflated egos who think they're there to control the narrative rather than report on it, but the national team needs a manager who is brave enough to do that because otherwise its just going to be the 2004 team all over again.

A few journos had a go about Mainoo not being physical enough after the warm up game, which was utter garbage when the alternative was Gallagher or a fullback, but low and behold Southgate panicked and changed it. He dropped Rashford which was fine but then refused to use either of the players brought in to replace him because the media gave both Foden and Bellingham the big build up and weren't interested in Eze or Gordon. If you can change your whole plan at the drop of a hat or first murmer of discontent like that, it means you never had a plan in the first place. Doesn't give you much chance when you come up against opponents like Spain who very definitely do have a plan as well as a talented crop of players.
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The fact that Spanish fans were underwhelmed with Luis de la Fuentes appointment but a lot of his players have worked under him in differennt age groups and he lost to Spain in qualifying, but he has not changed his ideas and is now reaping the rewards. The players seem to like him, he looks a nicer character than Luis Enrique.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
The fact that Spanish fans were underwhelmed with Luis de la Fuentes appointment but a lot of his players have worked under him in differennt age groups and he lost to Spain in qualifying, but he has not changed his ideas and is now reaping the rewards. The players seem to like him, he looks a nicer character than Luis Enrique.
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At international level I think if you have a decent set of players, and a tactical plan you can fit around them, you are halfway there. The tricky part is getting all the players on board and managing the pressure/expectation. Those bits Southgate seemed to do fine on but then probably because he was more focused on pandering to the media and his favoured players than he was the tactical plan part.

You could see from Spain's first game how hey had been set up to play. They have an abundance of players who are good on the ball yet they set up with two very direct wingers and an out and out striker because their manager obviously thought they needed a goal threat to go with the ball retention. They then consistently picked the same team, injuries and suspensions aside, and played the same way.

England went into the tournament not knowing what their midfield was and not knowing what positions two of their front 4 were even really playing in. They then completely changed their formation mid tournament. One of the two of our front four who actually WAS in a position they knew how to play, ended up at wing back. If you asked me to explain what England's tactics were. Other than "hope the other team don't score", I wouldn't be able to, and I bet none of the players could either.
 
noodlehair said:
At international level I think if you have a decent set of players, and a tactical plan you can fit around them, you are halfway there. The tricky part is getting all the players on board and managing the pressure/expectation. Those bits Southgate seemed to do fine on but then probably because he was more focused on pandering to the media and his favoured players than he was the tactical plan part.

You could see from Spain's first game how hey had been set up to play. They have an abundance of players who are good on the ball yet they set up with two very direct wingers and an out and out striker because their manager obviously thought they needed a goal threat to go with the ball retention. They then consistently picked the same team, injuries and suspensions aside, and played the same way.

England went into the tournament not knowing what their midfield was and not knowing what positions two of their front 4 were even really playing in. They then completely changed their formation mid tournament. One of the two of our front four who actually WAS in a position they knew how to play, ended up at wing back. If you asked me to explain what England's tactics were. Other than "hope the other team don't score", I wouldn't be able to, and I bet none of the players could either.
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Think Palmer, Gordon , Eze and Bowen should have been given more time. I love the threat they provide. We saw it when Saka ran at people. The media have been discussing Kane and say he needs runners round him. Which they might have helped him.
 
MrVolante said:
You don't need to be better than Spain at being Spain! You coach possession oriented football so that they don't absolutely wet themselves under any sort of pressure or rely on long kicks from Pickford because they're panicking so badly as Rice isn't capable of receiving the ball off defenders. A possession oriented England U21 team beat Spain 1-0 in the U21 final. They had 34% of the ball but more shots on target than the opposition, they weren't built as a transition team.

Wharton in Rice's role, Foden and Mainoo ahead of them and Palmer off the right with Bellingham false nine. Actually use Trent. Play out with actual footballers. I don't think this England team is a transition side at all, we aren't the team which has Sterling and Rashford anymore.
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Being able to play through the press is the first thing a good transition teams needs to be good at these days? You of course need to be good enough in possession
 
noodlehair said:
Other than most of the first half of the game vs Netherlands, at what point did England look like a better team than any of the opponents they faced?

England and Southgate's true level at this tournament was being eliminated in the last 16 by Slovakia, and its Bellingham we had to thank for averting that, not Southgate.

Its just the same story for me. We always get this stuff about him not getting enough credit or respect, but if you watch the games the pattern is the same every time. He gets a very good group of players to constantly underperform and is then bailed out by the individual talent of the players. That's not how good management works.

Good management is the Spain team looking like a well coached and well organised unit with a clear gameplan, players picked to suit it, and tactically out performing every opponent. Not sacrificing the team having any balance to try and shoehorn Foden and Bellingham into the same line up, because you have no idea what you actually want either of them to do.
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He’s had them in 2 finals and one semi final. For that he gets torn to shreds and pelted with bottles off his own fans? Yeah I think he deserves better.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Think Palmer, Gordon , Eze and Bowen should have been given more time. I love the threat they provide. We saw it when Saka ran at people. The media have been discussing Kane and say he needs runners round him. Which they might have helped him.
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The media and pundits always make excuses for Kane tbh.

He was utterly crap. Part of the reason he has never won a thing is because the team has to be subservient to his selfishness and limited work rate, and he really just isn't that good to justify it.

I agree we should have seen more of the likes of Palmer,Gordon and Eze, but I doubt it would have made Kane look any better. Saka numerous times played really good balls in amd Kane was never there.

If we'd dropped Foden for any of those we'd have just got nonsense from Neville and Co about how Kane keeps dropping deep because he needs someone like Foden to pick him out.

It's the same problem Portugal have with Ronaldo. Except the reason Ronaldo is like that is because he's nearly 40. Not because he's spent his whole career having an average Tottenham team pander their gameplan around him.
 
giorno said:
Disagree. England will never be better than Spain at being Spain. This tournament showed England have enough attacking talent to score against parked buses without attacking well anyways. Build a great transition side - which fits the current profile of players - capable of beating teams like Spain or France
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I'd agree with this, I don't think either of Foden or Bellingham are at their best keeping the ball. It's a little more indoctrined in Phil but for the longest period Pep doesn't like him centrally cause he's too direct. I don't think England have the players to make that tick. At City Phil is surrounded by Bernardo, Gvaridol, Akanji, Rodri etc.. and even City have gone a little more direct since Haaland and Phil as a 10. I don't think England can put out 11 players who excel at that kind of keep ball. Stones is probably the only one off the top of my head in the back 4. Maybe Mainoo looks like he has that potential too in the midfield and none of the attackers..
 
noodlehair said:
The media and pundits always make excuses for Kane tbh.

He was utterly crap. Part of the reason he has never won a thing is because the team has to be subservient to his selfishness and limited work rate, and he really just isn't that good to justify it.

I agree we should have seen more of the likes of Palmer,Gordon and Eze, but I doubt it would have made Kane look any better. Saka numerous times played really good balls in amd Kane was never there.

If we'd dropped Foden for any of those we'd have just got nonsense from Neville and Co about how Kane keeps dropping deep because he needs someone like Foden to pick him out.

It's the same problem Portugal have with Ronaldo. Except the reason Ronaldo is like that is because he's nearly 40. Not because he's spent his whole career having an average Tottenham team pander their gameplan around him.
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Kane’s a bottler. It’s probably just as well he spent so long at spurs because the real high pressure games clearly aren’t for him.
 
Pickford's distribution also caused England to lose a lot of possession because he liked to kick long balls which bring the ball back to opponents. It's silly actually.
 
MrVolante said:
You don't need to be better than Spain at being Spain! You coach possession oriented football so that they don't absolutely wet themselves under any sort of pressure or rely on long kicks from Pickford because they're panicking so badly as Rice isn't capable of receiving the ball off defenders. A possession oriented England U21 team beat Spain 1-0 in the U21 final. They had 34% of the ball but more shots on target than the opposition, they weren't built as a transition team.

Wharton in Rice's role, Foden and Mainoo ahead of them and Palmer off the right with Bellingham false nine. Actually use Trent. Play out with actual footballers. I don't think this England team is a transition side at all, we aren't the team which has Sterling and Rashford anymore.
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Yeah, I don't think England can just keep dropping back over and over in big games, particularly with no real pace in transition.

Should be easier without Maguire being slow at the back. The emerging CBs are less slow so that will help. They could probably have been higher up this tournament against Denmark and the Netherlands in the 2nd half. Probably wouldn't have worked against Spain, I think in a game like that you just need to defend well and bring in some real speed on the counter.

I don't think you need to drop Rice, really. He covers a lot of ground defensively in midfield. Germany and Austria both used players similar to him (Seiwald and Grillistch, Andrich/Can) while pressing high, and Arsenal do it every week.
 
NoPace said:
Yeah, I don't think England can just keep dropping back over and over in big games, particularly with no real pace in transition.

Should be easier without Maguire being slow at the back. The emerging CBs are less slow so that will help. They could probably have been higher up this tournament against Denmark and the Netherlands in the 2nd half. Probably wouldn't have worked against Spain, I think in a game like that you just need to defend well and bring in some real speed on the counter.

I don't think you need to drop Rice, really. He covers a lot of ground defensively in midfield. Germany and Austria both used players similar to him (Seiwald and Grillistch, Andrich/Can) while pressing high, and Arsenal do it every week.
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Arsenal use Rice correctly. Arteta realised really quickly that he isn't an elite level 6 because his ability to receive the ball off the centre backs and turn/progress play is non-existent. He isn't press resistant or mobile at all. Where Arsenal used him is further up, with Jorginho or Partey at the 6. Then you can use his engine, his very good off the ball work and also make use of a genuinely decent shot on him and his ability to carry the ball. In this role he is a good premier league midfielder, an upgraded version of a Gallagher ... a busy worker essentially, never worth anything close to 100 million pounds but that's English tax.

England need to integrate Wharton going forward. He can receive the ball off his defenders and will look to play it forward. He's not scared of being pressed. This kind of player who doesn't panic in possession will be so crucial in moments like this going forward for England when we're under the cosh and need a period of calm and to have a breather. Right now we have a lot of technically gifted players who excel in the final third and in finishing off moves (foden is a big example of this) but not enough technical players who play deeper.

England with Pickford, Guehi, Rice and Walker just can't play out under pressure. They panic and kick long .. to Kane who can't relieve the pressure as he doesn't win duels. You can only have so many players like this before it becomes a huge issue for the team.
 
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MrVolante said:
Arsenal use Rice correctly. Arteta realised really quickly that he isn't an elite level 6 because his ability to receive the ball off the centre backs and turn/progress play is non-existent. He isn't press resistant or mobile at all. Where Arsenal used him is further up, with Jorginho or Partey at the 6. Then you can use his engine, his very good off the ball work and also make use of a genuinely decent shot on him and his ability to carry the ball. In this role he is a good premier league midfielder, an upgraded version of a Gallagher ... a busy worker essentially, never worth anything close to 100 million pounds but that's English tax.

England need to integrate Wharton going forward. He can receive the ball off his defenders and will look to play it forward. He's not scared of being pressed. This kind of player who doesn't panic in possession will be so crucial in moments like this going forward for England when we're under the cosh and need a period of calm and to have a breather. Right now we have a lot of technically gifted players who excel in the final third and in finishing off moves (foden is a big example of this) but not enough technical players who play deeper.

England with Pickford, Guehi, Rice and Walker just can't play out under pressure. They panic and kick long .. to Kane who can't relieve the pressure as he doesn't win duels. You can only have so many players like this before it becomes a huge issue for the team.
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Rice may have his flaws but he is clearly mobile
 
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