England Euro 2024 Squad and Discussion

[Jezpeza]

As you say, one of the worst German sides ever. Big name, not a big team at the time. Löw had overstayed his welcome, similarly to Southgate now, but at least he had the World Cup 2014 and the Confed Cup 2017 to show for it. Löw messed up the generation change after that and that resulted in disastrous tournaments 2018 and 2021.

By the way, it feels weird to talk about a generation change in Germany when we now field one of our oldest ever teams on average under Nagelsmann

I think Naglesmann has found a good system for your players. Not necessarily a generation change per se - but Gundogan, Neuer, Rudiger and Kroos are quality regardless of age and Musiala and Wirtz look very very bright

 

[Jezpeza]

That last paragraph needs highlighting particularly to the tournament fans who see him as some kind of messiah. We got favourable runs and that's how he got so far in tournaments

2018 - colombia, Sweden, Croatia(lost)

2020 - Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy(lost)

2022 - Senegal, France(lost)

I mean, bearing in mind that these are the knock our stages of major tournaments, not even the group stages, it doesnt get much kinder than that. Not like we are going to be playing San Marino and Andorra at those points is it?

 

[The Purley King]

Yikes.

This should be stapled to Southgate's P45. That is utterly cowardly.

 

[stefan92]

I think Naglesmann has found a good system for your players. Not necessarily a generation change per se - but Gundogan, Neuer, Rudiger and Kroos are quality regardless of age and Musiala and Wirtz look very very bright

True. The obvious big difference between Nagelsmann and Southgate is that Nagelsmann saw that his first approach last year (which was based on continuing with and fixing Flick's team and tactics) didn't work well, so he just decided on a new system and in the process kicked out some players completely. Not even benched them in some cases but just decided "you don't have a place in my starting eleven, and you are not the type who accepts that easily, so you can just stay at home" (Hummels, Goretzka). That changed approach attributed more to the changed selection than just including a new generation, instead we saw (somewhat) experienced players like Mittelstädt or Andrich suddenly being called up.

I could never imagine Southgate doing such a move.

 

[Jezpeza]

True. The obvious big difference between Nagelsmann and Southgate is that Nagelsmann saw that his first approach last year (which was based on continuing with and fixing Flick's team and tactics) didn't work well, so he just decided on a new system and in the process kicked out some players completely. Not even benched them in some cases but just decided "you don't have a place in my starting eleven, and you are not the type who accepts that easily, so you can just stay at home" (Hummels, Goretzka). That changed approach attributed more to the changed selection than just including a new generation, instead we saw (somewhat) experienced players like Mittelstädt or Andrich suddenly being called up.

I could never imagine Southgate doing such a move.

Absolutely, Southgate is names over system. I said earlier in the thread that if you are going to play like he does (mystery to most of us) and be punting long balls to a front man to hold up and chase lost causes, then it is prudent to drop Harry Kane and play Ivan Toney for example. Kane is obviously a much better player but not right for the ridiculous system Southgate is employing.

The bullshit about Kalvin Phillips was the tipping point for me last night. A guy who kissed a runners up medal on camera, who it was always a mystery why he was starting every game, is cried about as the reason we play like an early 2000’s lower half premier league team? Eh?

 

[#07]

The FA really needs to be looking beyond Southgate. I don't care if he lucks into a win, which I doubt. I think the last 8 is as far as we can credibly hope to go.

This whole thing has been a f'n disaster and its not going to get better from here.

Looking at Austria, I'd be talking to Ralf Rangnick and seeing if we can get him in.

 

[Kirk lazarus]

I thought the overall performance in the Belgium friendly , despite needing a late equalizer , showed us something that could be built on .

That's where I'd go back to look . Toney started up top , chilwell at left back , mainoo and rice in midfield , Bellingham 10 . Foden one side Bowen the other .

I agree with those who would consider saka at left back .

He's got to find a balance . Left back needs a lefty and saka is his only current option , so that is who it must be .

 

[Alex99]

2018 - colombia, Sweden, Croatia(lost)

2020 - Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy(lost)

2022 - Senegal, France(lost)

I mean, bearing in mind that these are the knock our stages of major tournaments, not even the group stages, it doesnt get much kinder than that. Not like we are going to be playing San Marino and Andorra at those points is it?

I defended him quite staunchly after 2018 when there were lots of mentions of Netherlands and Italy, neither of which had actually qualified, but it's obvious now that England under Southgate are only ever going to peak at "best of the rest", and I'd say they're going backwards now.

Ignoring how he'd cope with the different squads, I don't think you could make a strong argument for him doing (much) better than his predecessors, given the teams they came up against.

 

[Mb194dc]

Southgate is partly right, the pressure is a big problem for England players.

There's enough quality in the squad to expect to realistically get to the semis. So it's right there is pressure, can't avoid it. Southgate is at least aware of how to mitigate it off the pitch.

What he doesn't get, is that club teams are set-up tactically to hold on the ball, play out from the back. That's how you handle pressure on the pitch in the modern game. You keep the ball.

The likes of City are favourites every game and tournament. They handle pressure as other team can't get the ball. Sure they can lose, like they did against Real. Still, they dominate the ball and will win 9/10 if they play like that.

That's not going to happen with the teams Southgate is picking and his tactical setup. TAA doesn't play midfield at Liverpool for good reason. We're able to beat weaker teams with the panic hoofball due to individual quality. Against any decent team it'll be game over...

Potter is probably the only English manager I can think of who actually knows how to coach the modern possession style.

 

[Robbie Boy]

He's been our best midfielder alongside Odegaard. Not sure what you're on about.

Instead of petty tribalism club posts your ire should be at Southgate, under who every single player from Foden to Saka to Bellingham last game look utterly shite and lost.

Well, obviously Southgate is shite.

 

[NLunited]

Could it be the players don‘t give a feck? Look at Germany‘s intensity. Night and day.

 

[gerdm07]

Speed on the wings! England has speed on the right with Saka and Walker. The left, though, is wanting with Foden more central and Trippier. Play Gordon on the left and this is a totally different England capable of winning the cup.

 

[leontas]

Speed on the wings! England has speed on the right with Saka and Walker. The left, though, is wanting with Foden more central and Trippier. Play Gordon on the left and this is a totally different England capable of winning the cup.

Agreed - I'd shift Foden centrally, give Bellingham a rest cause he's knackered and put Gordon on the wing. Also put Mainoo in for TAA.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Maybe it is, but if the team started playing good football and got results it would shut the media right up. I don't buy into this whole "English media is terrible" narrative that is sometimes used. I bet the German, Spanish and French media can be brutal as well.

If I was Southgate I'd make some drastic changes for the Slovenia game. Bellingham, Kane and Alexander-Arnold wouldn't start.

Why would you drop Bellingham when he’s arguably been our best player? And play who foden? He’s just not as good.

 

[Doracle]

He is still to young to play in that position in this kind of tournament. It is different football. Is there any team that plays teenager at that position?

Portugal won Euro 16 with Renato Sanchez playing a key role in their midfield. There’s no reason at all why the best player in the FA Cup final involving two of the world’s biggest clubs, can’t play a major role for England.

 

[Jezpeza]

Why would you drop Bellingham when he’s arguably been our best player? And play who foden? He’s just not as good.

Just play Bellingham as 10, with a striker who drops back to 10 and a 10 on the wing who drifts back to his usual position. Its still a 4231:

Pickford

walker stones geuhi trippier
Trent Rice
Bellingham
Foden
Kane

saka

love the balance

 

[Mike Smalling]

Why would you drop Bellingham when he’s arguably been our best player? And play who foden? He’s just not as good.

He certainly didn't show it yesterday.

 

[Alex99]

Thats bred by his fear of going for it and his insecurity in the job. He’s too insecure to pick Mainoo or Wharton in midfield. He’s too insecure to swap Walker for Trent in certain games and tweak his setup. He got to the final against Italy - the worst result at that stage was runner up and he got runner up by losing the game whilst playing negative hold on for your life dross instead of going for it because hes insecure and scared. The Italy equaliser was coming for about 20 minutes and he just did nothing.

He doesn't even have the basic guile to have his players go down with ‘cramp’ or take 40 seconds to take throw ins and free kicks when we are under the kosh.

Why do we always look lethargic and knackered? Because we end up doing the hard chasing even against Denmark and then we just start lashing the ball upfield and it comes straight back. Our possession stats are faux because we get about 60 passes between the two centre halves and goalkeeper before lashing it upfield and losing it because theres no method of ball progression. Its awful to watch - every game we let the opposition get their defensive shape, we work the ball to left wing slowly, nowhere to go, Bellingham comes across to receive a pass, rice comes short for him, he goes backwards diagonal to rice, rice plays it back to a centre half, he plays it to the other centre half, who plays it to walker or saka, and the whole process repeats in reverse because the switch of play is so slow the opposition just sidle across to shut down the wing. We are a piece of piss to play against even for the likes of serbia, denmark and slovenia.

The jobs always been too big for him. He benefitted from a period where some of the bigger sides like Germany and Spain were going through cycles of players and not at their best. The only good/big team we have beaten in knockout football under him is Germany in Euro 2020 - and that was one of their worst sides in decades.

He's insecure and scared but has then shot himself in the foot by trying to appear brave.

He's tried to appear brave with is squad selection, but he's just ended up picking a mess of players that he doesn't know how to work with. The whole Alexander-Arnold thing is possibly the biggest example of this. He's bemoaning the lack of Kalvin Phillips but, while not the exact same profile, has chosen to leave Henderson behind. Instead, he's starting his third-choice (probably fourth-choice if James is fit) right-back in midfield, while Mainoo and Wharton sit warming the bench. On top of that, he's made the 'brave' decision to leave out Rashford, but doesn't know how to set up a functioning attack without someone willing to run into space, and is instead watching Kane, Saka and Foden all dropping into the same part of the pitch Bellingham is starting in to receive the ball to feet, all while Gordon and Eze sit warming the bench.

He's also made the 'brave' decision to adapt his tactics from two holding midfielders, except he doesn't appear to have given it any more thought than "only play one", so the midfield is just a mess whoever is playing there. Rice is effectively alone out there, with neither Alexander-Arnold or Gallagher operating remotely like a midfield partner, and the front-line don't appear to have been given any real instruction, so are all reverting to individualism, which is seeing them all try and do the same thing to affect the game. About the only thing they seem to have been instructed to do is drop deeper when in the lead, which just creates the endless cycle you've mentioned there.

He's 'bravely' picking a starting eleven that he doesn't know how to set up effectively, and 'bravely' picked a bench that he doesn't really trust to come in and change things.

The one thing Southgate had going for him was getting England, by-and-large, winning the games they should be winning, but since the last Euros, they've not even managed that consistently (and the wobbles were starting to show in the Nations League 2020/21).

 

[croadyman]

The FA really needs to be looking beyond Southgate. I don't care if he lucks into a win, which I doubt. I think the last 8 is as far as we can credibly hope to go.

This whole thing has been a f'n disaster and its not going to get better from here.

Looking at Austria, I'd be talking to Ralf Rangnick and seeing if we can get him in.

No chance they would ever appoint Rangnick he is far too outspoken for them, look at the fact Clough never got appointed in the 70's

 

[croadyman]

He's insecure and scared but has then shot himself in the foot by trying to appear brave.

He's tried to appear brave with is squad selection, but he's just ended up picking a mess of players that he doesn't know how to work with. The whole Alexander-Arnold thing is possibly the biggest example of this. He's bemoaning the lack of Kalvin Phillips but, while not the exact same profile, has chosen to leave Henderson behind. Instead, he's starting his third-choice (probably fourth-choice if James is fit) right-back in midfield, while Mainoo and Wharton sit warming the bench. On top of that, he's made the 'brave' decision to leave out Rashford, but doesn't know how to set up a functioning attack without someone willing to run into space, and is instead watching Kane, Saka and Foden all dropping into the same part of the pitch Bellingham is starting in to receive the ball to feet, all while Gordon and Eze sit warming the bench.

He's also made the 'brave' decision to adapt his tactics from two holding midfielders, except he doesn't appear to have given it any more thought than "only play one", so the midfield is just a mess whoever is playing there. Rice is effectively alone out there, with neither Alexander-Arnold or Gallagher operating remotely like a midfield partner, and the front-line don't appear to have been given any real instruction, so are all reverting to individualism, which is seeing them all try and do the same thing to affect the game. About the only thing they seem to have been instructed to do is drop deeper when in the lead, which just creates the endless cycle you've mentioned there.

He's 'bravely' picking a starting eleven that he doesn't know how to set up effectively, and 'bravely' picked a bench that he doesn't really trust to come in and change things.

The one thing Southgate had going for him was getting England, by-and-large, winning the games they should be winning, but since the last Euros, they've not even managed that consistently (and the wobbles were starting to show in the Nations League 2020/21).

I wish Rashford and Grealish hadn't taken the decision out of his hands by a combo of not impressing Guardiola and strolling around the pitch without a care away at Newcastle

 

[Pirlo'sBeard]

Southgate is "experimenting" in the tournament.

That says it all. He does not have a clue.

 

[Alex99]

I wish Rashford and Grealish hadn't taken the decision out of his hands by a combo of not impressing Guardiola and strolling around the pitch without a care away at Newcastle

It's certainly not helped, but he had no issue picking Phillips and Maguire when they weren't playing.

 

[sammyhol]

England's problems to me really don't seem that complicated, but it seems that the vast majority of fans and pundit don't see it as I do. I'd whittle down to a few key issues:

Left back - Taking only one, injured left footed fb is turning out to be as stupid as it looked when the squad was announced. It effects our balance to such a degree that I'd be tempted to play Saka there until Shaw is back, especially because we are stacked with Saka alternatives for RW (Foden, Palmer, Bowen).

Deep midfield - Every top team who wants to control games MUST have a player who can take the ball in tight areas on the half turn off the defence, and instinctively play short, sharp forward passes with as few touches as possible, and have good pass selection. England have only 2 players who fit this mould. Wharton and Mainoo. You have to play one of them. I'm so against those calling for a trio of Rice, Bellingham or Foden. None of them meet that criteria for me, and against a good side we would be absolutely bossed as a result.

Attacking Midfield and Kane - We need to get passed this obsession with playing all your "most talented" players. For most fans and pundits this is currently Foden, Bellingham, Palmer, and Kane. Unfortunately, all 4 of them want to occupy the same spaces. There is room for two of them max. If you play Kane, you simply have to play runners either side of him to break the back line. So that is Bowen or Saka on the left, and probably Gordon on the right. If you play Watkins instead of Kane and he holds a position on the shoulder of the last defender, you could maybe get away with playing a Foden or Palmer type on one of the wings to drift into central areas alongside the 10 without creating too much congestion. However, only on the side where an overlapping FB will provide natural width , so currently only on the right.

Barring maybe the LB issue due to baffling initial squad selection, most of this can be easily fixed with the squad he has chosen. Southgate just needs to grow a pair, and start to prioritise balance and system over names.

 

[croadyman]

England's problems to me really don't seem that complicated, but it seems that the vast majority of fans and pundit don't see it as I do. I'd whittle down to a few key issues:

Left back - Taking only one, injured left footed fb is turning out to be as stupid as it looked when the squad was announced. It effects our balance to such a degree that I'd be tempted to play Saka there until Shaw is back, especially because we are stacked with Saka alternatives for RW (Foden, Palmer, Bowen).

Deep midfield - Every top team who wants to control games MUST have a player who can take the ball in tight areas on the half turn off the defence, and instinctively play short, sharp forward passes with as few touches as possible, and have good pass selection. England have only 2 players who fit this mould. Wharton and Mainoo. You have to play one of them. I'm so against those calling for a trio of Rice, Bellingham or Foden. None of them meet that criteria for me, and against a good side we would be absolutely bossed as a result.

Attacking Midfield and Kane - We need to get passed this obsession with playing all your "most talented" players. For most fans and pundits this is currently Foden, Bellingham, Palmer, and Kane. Unfortunately, all 4 of them want to occupy the same spaces. There is room for two of them max. If you play Kane, you simply have to play runners either side of him to break the back line. So that is Bowen or Saka on the left, and probably Gordon on the right. If you play Watkins instead of Kane and he holds a position on the shoulder of the last defender, you could maybe get away with playing a Foden or Palmer type on one of the wings to drift into central areas alongside the 10 without creating too much congestion. However, only on the side where an overlapping FB will provide natural width , so currently only on the right.

Barring maybe the LB issue due to baffling initial squad selection, most of this can be easily fixed with the squad he has chosen. Southgate just needs to grow a pair, and start to prioritise balance and system over names.

Southgate doesn't have a pair and unfortunately neither does his bosses at the FA

 

[Iffin]

Don’t know if any international manager has ever been sacked in the group stages of a major tournament, but I’d really love for Southgate to be the first.

The guy infuriates me with squad selection, team selection, cowardly in-match decisions and any interviews he gives.

I didn’t actually mind him as a player but as manager at any level he’s proper gash.
I was very disappointed when he got the England job and the disappointment never lessened regardless of any decent results he got.

 

[Red Dreams]

We wont beat Germany, Spain or France. Even Italy.
Not because they have better players.
They all have better managers.
The FA retaining Southgate after the last Euro debacle against Italy is unbelievable. The blame lies entirely on them.

 

[footballistic orgasm]

Why would you drop Bellingham when he’s arguably been our best player? And play who foden? He’s just not as good.

What is Bellingham better at?

As far as this tournament goes so far, Bellingham has had about 30-40 good minutes in the first half of the first game, and has disappeared since then. Basically carrying on with his form of the 2nd half of the season with Madrid.

I don't necessarily think that he should be dropped, but I don't see why he should be untouchable either.

 

[IRN-BRUno]

No chance they would ever appoint Rangnick he is far too outspoken for them, look at the fact Clough never got appointed in the 70's

He came close before, was between him and Allardyce.

 

[croadyman]

We wont beat Germany, Spain or France. Even Italy.
Not because they have better players.
They all have better managers.
The FA retaining Southgate after the last Euro debacle against Italy is unbelievable. The blame lies entirely on them.

Yeah they are such a weak mentality organisation

 

[lex talionis]

I do sort of see what he is saying re Phillips.


Probably over eze in all honesty, taking both eze and Gordon to very inexperienced players who play in the same position.

Rashford had a poor season. But he has vast experience in comparison to eze and Gordon. And you know exactly what your going to get with him.

(I have to figure out why I can't format anything any longer.)

You actually don't always know what you're going to get from Marcus Rashford and that's the problem. On his day he's a an worlder, but on most days he's not. He has vast experience, but when you take into account the sum of that experience it's a pretty picture. But his peaks...oh my.

In general, you go with players in form. Some exceptions, such as Rice, as there is no substitute for Rice. And perhaps Kane has attained undroppable status. But although I would have included Rashford in the squad his form is such that he would be nothing more than a last ditch sub when chasing a goal late.

 

[Alex99]

We wont beat Germany, Spain or France. Even Italy.
Not because they have better players.
They all have better managers.
The FA retaining Southgate after the last Euro debacle against Italy is unbelievable. The blame lies entirely on them.

To extend it to the World Cup, you've got the group of Argentina, Brazil, France, Germany and Spain that, short of an off-period, you expect to be among the favourites. You can probably add Italy and Portugal to that too. England (under Southgate) are simply never beating one of those sides unless they're in a truly shit period.

Then you've got the next group, which is a bit less static, but in recent(ish) tournaments has included the likes of Belgium, Colombia, Croatia, Denmark, Netherlands, Switzerland and Uruguay, as well as one-off tournament surprises like Costa Rica 2014, Wales 2016 or Morocco 2022 that England (under Southgate) probably go in with a 50/50 chance of beating.

 

[croadyman]

(I have to figure out why I can't format anything any longer.)

You actually don't always know what you're going to get from Marcus Rashford and that's the problem. On his day he's a an worlder, but on most days he's not. He has vast experience, but when you take into account the sum of that experience it's a pretty picture. But his peaks...oh my.

In general, you go with players in form. Some exceptions, such as Rice, as there is no substitute for Rice. And perhaps Kane has attained undroppable status. But although I would have included Rashford in the squad his form is such that he would be nothing more than a last ditch sub when chasing a goal late.

Rashford should have thought earlier if I don’t start putting in the effort for Utd I won't get picked for Euros. Personally I think he just arrogantly assumed he would get picked, maybe it's the same with Grealish as well

 

[DixieDean]

We wont beat Germany, Spain or France. Even Italy.
Not because they have better players.
They all have better managers.
The FA retaining Southgate after the last Euro debacle against Italy is unbelievable. The blame lies entirely on them.

I've said all along that the final performance against italy was sack worthy.

 

[croadyman]

I've said all along that the final performance against italy was sack worthy.

Yeah and you would be absolutely right

 

[TheGame]

What a fecking joke.

 

[chris123]

What a fecking joke.

Yeah he's not playing in this tournament is he.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Such a bad move.

 

[croadyman]

What a fecking joke.

Yeah he had to take at least one of the first two

 

[caid]

I'd say the first screw up was a year ago at the start of the qualification when southgate backed the likes of Henderson, Philips, Shaw and Maguire. He didn't need to drop them entirely but it would have been sensible to phase them out a bit. Deciding to abandon that 2 matches before the tournament was compounding a stupid decision.
He could have had trent in midfield for qualification and it might possibly have worked (i doubt it) or at least they'd have ironed out some of the problems with it. He could have done a lot of things really but every decision he's made has been a really poor one.

 

[croadyman]

I'd say the first screw up was a year ago at the start of the qualification when southgate backed the likes of Henderson, Philips, Shaw and Maguire. He didn't need to drop them entirely but it would have been sensible to phase them out a bit. Deciding to abandon that 2 matches before the tournament was compounding a stupid decision.
He could have had trent in midfield for qualification and it might possibly have worked (i doubt it) or at least they'd have ironed out some of the problems with it. He could have done a lot of things really but every decision he's made has been a really poor one.

Yeah he definitely screwed up with that