England Euro 2024 Squad and Discussion

[90 + 5min]

It's not for experimenting with a right back in centre midfield either, but here we are.

That is something that can't be explained. I find it wierd from tactical point of view.

He played brilliantly against a frankly world class Man City that won the league this season and a treble the year before.

But he is too young to play against Serbia and Denmark ?

He played brilliant. I agree. He is still to young to play in that position in this kind of tournament. It is different football. Is there any team that plays teenager at that position? It is no surprise that France plays Rabiot and Kante and not players like Camavinga. There is reason why Andrich plays and not some young talent. Or why Ruiz plays when you got younger equal talents. You need experience.

You have players like Will Griggs and David Healy smashing international football. Stop over rating it. It’s not that difficult. The level is actually lower than club football.

That is different position. It is easier to play attacking football because if you make misstake it doesn't affect you in same way.

 

[90 + 5min]

Disagree massively with this.
You don't need to "learn" how to play international football, its the same game.
Look at some of the youngsters excelling in other teams, should they all be dropped in order to learn? Crazy post.

Which ones? In that position?

 

[Maagge]

It was pretty clear that the Danish team had talked about shooting from range due to this ball being very good for it. It was actually good to see, because with our lack of quality in wide areas our attacks often come to nothing. So it's good to actually finish an attack with an attempt on goal, even if it has a low chance to go in. Worked for Hjulmand, and with a bit more accuracy Højbjerg could have won it in the end.

Yeah it makes complete sense, since all three of our midfielders can score from outside the box and that we've been really poor at creating chances in the box outside of set pieces for a while.

 

[RobinLFC]

Ok, I've solved the issue, 4231:

You play Kane as a #10, with Bellingham and Rice behind him. Kane spent the majority of the last two games in our own half. Bellingham is instructed to be more disciplined and his job is to work with Rice. If he can't do this, he's dropped.

You play Watkins at #9, utilising him like how Kane had Son. Basically having a runner off of him. Kane drops deep, then can pass to the runners or holds up, lays off to player for a first time pass to the runners.

The current team lacks pace.

So you start Gordon on the left. I want high and wide pace for our #10 and for Foden to hit. This is Watkins and Gordon.

People who think this team and this coach will suddenly start dominating the ball, like City or Arsenal are deluded. Putting some good players together doesn't mean they'll start playing liquid football.

So be pragmatic, hit teams on the break because we won't or can't dominate possession.

The galling thing is, we are currently playing on the counter and on transition, but are playing the wrong players to make this work. Every time we won the ball back, we trundled up the pitch and made no attempt on goal. If we were a Spain type team, sure we can maintain possession but we are not and likely will never be that so why try?

So we are set up to dominate the ball, yet we can't dominate the ball. We retreat into a low block and try to spring a counter but are playing slow, untransitional players so we end up doing neither.

"Solved the issue" and the first thing you'd do is put yet another England player OUT of his preferred and best position

Kane exclusively played as a striker for Tottenham, even when he played off of Son. You're giving up midfield control entirely if you put a central forward in a midfield position who not only isn't used to defend and track back consistently, but also will lose sharpness in front of goal where he can actually contribute something. You have the best #9 in world football as your captain, KEEP HIM THERE and work something out to provide for him. And yes that could involve Watkins as a Son-like player around Kane but just figure those things out after Kane is your first player on the board as central forward.

 

[stefan92]

I'd say it's indeed Southgate being inept but also because the likes of Pep, Klopp, Arteta play such a specific brand of football that Foden, TAA, Saka, Rice, ... might be struggling. The difference is certainly less big for a guy like Rodri coming into that Spain side given the way they play, let alone Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta who could just replicate the exact style they played for their club.

But I agree with the overall sentiment yeah. You just need to "tone it down" a bit so that the different styles of players blend in together well and find a common ground on tactics that works. Which seems something that for example Nagelsmann has found for Germany, that second goal against Hungary looked a lot like something City would do (and a position Gundogan found himself in very often), left-back overlap and a 45° cross to an attacker in the box. Think Kimmich did the same for one goal against Scotland.

That's kind of the point. Pep and Arteta play quite similar styles, Klopp over the years also came closer to Pep's style (and vice versa), so that it should be possible to find a relatively high common ground for the players from City, Arsenal and Liverpool. Instead Southgate does play quite different.

And yes Nagelsmann did the interesting move to get rid of the Bayern axis to have a core of Real/Leverkusen players and sprinkle a bunch of players around this who fits them well.

 

[RobinLFC]

Which ones? In that position?

Enzo Fernandez, just last World Cup.

 

[romufc]

He played brilliant. I agree. He is still to young to play in that position in this kind of tournament. It is different football. Is there any team that plays teenager at that position? It is no surprise that France plays Rabiot and Kante and not players like Camavinga. There is reason why Andrich plays and not some young talent. Or why Ruiz plays when you got younger equal talents. You need experience.

Oh yes.. I forgot Pedri is 30.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

"Solved the issue" and the first thing you'd do is put yet another England player OUT of his preferred and best position

Kane exclusively played as a striker for Tottenham, even when he played off of Son. You're giving up midfield control entirely if you put a central forward in a midfield position who not only isn't used to defend and track back consistently, but also will lose sharpness in front of goal where he can actually contribute something. You have the best #9 in world football as your captain, KEEP HIM THERE and work something out to provide for him. And yes that could involve Watkins as a Son-like player around Kane but just figure those things out after Kane is your first player on the board as central forward.

HE WONT STAY THERE. The fact I called it a 10 doesn't mean a literal 10, call it a 9.5, call it Cantona/Yorke whatever you like but someone who doesn't lead that line.

I've solved it Robin.

 

[RobinLFC]

HE WONT STAY THERE. The fact I called it a 10 doesn't mean a literal 10, call it a 9.5, call it Cantona/Yorke whatever you like but someone who doesn't lead that line.

I've solved it Robin.

Whether you're playing him as a 9 or a 10 on paper, you're still giving up a midfield player or sacrificing your entire right-hand side if you pair him with Watkins. Someone like Kroos or Rodri will punish you for that imo.

 

[stefan92]

There is reason why Andrich plays and not some young talent. Or why Ruiz plays when you got younger equal talents. You need experience.

Andrich plays because he is the only German DM who performed well this season and is used to play alongside a player operating as a DLP (Xhaka in Leverkusen, Kroos in the national team). There literally is no young talent in Germany who does the same job on a similar level. Nonetheless Pavlovic was intented as his backup after a half season in the Bundesliga (comparable to Mainoo I'd say, even if Pavlovic already is 20). Only due to his illness we got Can instead as a very late addition to the German squad.

 

[ErikElevenHag]

That is something that can't be explained. I find it wierd from tactical point of view.


He played brilliant. I agree. He is still to young to play in that position in this kind of tournament. It is different football. Is there any team that plays teenager at that position? It is no surprise that France plays Rabiot and Kante and not players like Camavinga. There is reason why Andrich plays and not some young talent. Or why Ruiz plays when you got younger equal talents. You need experience.


That is different position. It is easier to play attacking football because if you make misstake it doesn't affect you in same way.

What are you talking about? Plenty of teams play young players in Central Midfield if they're good enough. Last international tournament alone, Spain started 17 year old Gavi and 19 year old Pedri at every game at the world cup. France played 22 year old tchouameni, Argentina played 21 year old Enzo Fernandez.

Plenty of teams if they believe players are talented enough put them into the sides. Mainoo is playing week in week out for one of the biggest clubs in the world and has been man of the match in our biggest games this season. He should be in the side as the other alternative is playing a RB in there.

 

[Bwuk]

he’s basically seen what Bellingham has done for Madrid this season and is too scared not to play him anywhere else. If Madrid had Bellingham and Foden then Bellingham wouldn’t be playing so far up the field.

you have Rice, Bellingham and Foden to form a world class triangle in the middle with the potential for two good pacey wingers and he has fecked it all up because he had to do what Madrid does.

The knock on effect of it is Foden on the wing which doesn’t help Kane nor does it help the left with a makeshift Trippier out there and it renders the midfield impotent especially when he’s doubling up on his error by playing TAA there.

And the stupidist thing of all is he seemingly can’t see this himself, or just refuses to change things lest he admit he doesn’t know what he’s doing. It was all there to see in the first game and he rolled out the same team. Hilarious.

He would because Foden would be on the bench.

 

[Red Stone]

He played brilliant. I agree. He is still to young to play in that position in this kind of tournament. It is different football. Is there any team that plays teenager at that position? It is no surprise that France plays Rabiot and Kante and not players like Camavinga. There is reason why Andrich plays and not some young talent. Or why Ruiz plays when you got younger equal talents. You need experience.

Spain finished third in the last Euros with an 18 year old Pedri starting every game in midfield. Playing in the middle for Spain is a far more daunting task than playing for England. In Qatar they started Gavi and Pedro together, with Gavi only just having turned 18 and Pedri not being much older than Mainoo is now.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

Mainoo should start the next game over Trent, who's had two bad games and isn't a natural midfielder at all. It's hardly going to be a downgrade and there are huge possible upsides.

Also thought Foden was a fair bit better than Bellingham last night and was unlucky to be subbed.

 

[noodlehair]

I mean Pedri literally played in the game straight after the England one.

Also I reckon most teams would pick Mainoo if the alternative was to play a right back in midfield. Also though, I don't think many managers when given an entire country of midfielders to pick from, would put a right back in midfield.

For anyone other than Southgate this would be an astonishingly stupid thing to do. For him its just another to add to the list of weird incompetent shite that he for some reason doesn't get properly called up on.

 

[90 + 5min]

Enzo Fernandez, just last World Cup.

You can find one or two exceptions. He still had 2-3 seasons in Argentina.

Andrich plays because he is the only German DM who performed well this season and is used to play alongside a player operating as a DLP (Xhaka in Leverkusen, Kroos in the national team). There literally is no young talent in Germany who does the same job on a similar level. Nonetheless Pavlovic was intented as his backup after a half season in the Bundesliga (comparable to Mainoo I'd say, even if Pavlovic already is 20). Only due to his illness we got Can instead as a very late addition to the German squad.

If he wasn't good enough he wouldn't play. It is not like Germany have lack of players. It is big football country. Those important positions are being given to experienced players. Young players need time do develop into that position to function in best way possible. I think Pavlovic would be sitting on the bench for most of the time except some minutes here and there. He could have taken a player like Stiller who had good season but he also needs to get experience before being thrown into international football.

 

[FrankDrebin]

--------------Pickford-----------

Walker----Stones----Guehi----Saka (left field choice)

-------------------Rice--------------
Wharton----------Maino---

Foden-----Kane/Bellingham---Gordon

 

[90 + 5min]

What are you talking about? Plenty of teams play young players in Central Midfield if they're good enough. Last international tournament alone, Spain started 17 year old Gavi and 19 year old Pedri at every game at the world cup. France played 22 year old tchouameni, Argentina played 21 year old Enzo Fernandez.

Plenty of teams if they believe players are talented enough put them into the sides. Mainoo is playing week in week out for one of the biggest clubs in the world and has been man of the match in our biggest games this season. He should be in the side as the other alternative is playing a RB in there.

Spain finished third in the last Euros with an 18 year old Pedri starting every game in midfield. Playing in the middle for Spain is a far more daunting task than playing for England. In Qatar they started Gavi and Pedro together, with Gavi only just having turned 18 and Pedri not being much older than Mainoo is now.

Maybe that is why they couldn't get past Morocco in last World Cup.

People think that I'm against Mainoo. I'm not. Big, big talent. He is just still to young to play in this tournament. England should have gone with Henderson and Prowes instead of experiment with some players. There is zero leadership in midfield.

 

[SilentWitness]

Still think England should move to Pickford, Trent, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Saka, Wharton/Mainoo, Rice, Bellingham, Foden, Kane if Shaw isn't fit.

With Shaw fit you can play with 4 at the back but need to drop Foden or Bellingham and play Gordon or Eze at LW, drop Trent and play Wharton or Mainoo.

 

[The Purley King]

Which ones? In that position?

Pedri is 21, Gavi who would have been playing if not for injury is 17. Both midfielders.
Guler for Turkey is 19 and plays attacking midfield.
Experience is good to have yes, but its not essential, Mainoo won us the cup final vs City and has played generally very well since his introduction, so to say he can't play because he needs to learn is crazy in my opinion.

 

[John XII]

Still think England should move to Pickford, Trent, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Saka, Wharton/Mainoo, Rice, Bellingham, Foden, Kane if Shaw isn't fit.

With Shaw fit you can play with 4 at the back but need to drop Foden or Bellingham and play Gordon or Eze at LW, drop Trent and play Wharton or Mainoo.

I like Eze but I thought he looked really out of his depth yesterday.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

The clamour for Gordon now shows what a disastrous decision it was not to take Rashford, it’s obvious Kane needs a Son

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Whether you're playing him as a 9 or a 10 on paper, you're still giving up a midfield player or sacrificing your entire right-hand side if you pair him with Watkins. Someone like Kroos or Rodri will punish you for that imo.

I've solved it Robin!

 

[FrankDrebin]

I like Eze but I thought he looked really out of his depth yesterday.

It was like all the enthusiasm had been sucked out of him.

 

[ErikElevenHag]

You can find one or two exceptions. He still had 2-3 seasons in Argentina.


If he wasn't good enough he wouldn't play. It is not like Germany have lack of players. It is big football country. Those important positions are being given to experienced players. Young players need time do develop into that position to function in best way possible. I think Pavlovic would be sitting on the bench for most of the time except some minutes here and there. He could have taken a player like Stiller who had good season but he also needs to get experience before being thrown into international football.

I've just named 4 players in the last tournament from the major nations, Pogba is another who as soon as he started playing regular first team football he was starting games in the 2014 world cup for France. There are plenty of examples out there, but you're willing to die on this hill of some idea that young players don't play midfield for major nations which you've conjured up in your own head.

 

[Rojofiam]

--------------Pickford-----------

Walker----Stones----Guehi----Saka (left field choice)

-------------------Rice--------------
Wharton----------Maino---

Foden-----Kane/Bellingham---Gordon

Why would you put Saka there?

 

[giorno]

He has a 22 goals, 11 assists season player on the bench who has featured a grant total of 0 minutes in the two games so far.

Kane is a known quantity and has shown little to nothing, nobody does when your have shit tactics.

The point is that going into the tournament he could trust Rashford and Graelish more than Eze and Watkins - Gordon has a different skillset and actually does offer some level of flexibility -

But we'll see. If he starts using those guys then fair enough. I still don't think any of them offers quite the package Rashford and Graelish do, so there's also an element of skillser involved(Eze doesn't defend like Graelish, Watkins can't dribble like Rashford)

As for Palmer - he may be the player the english have collectively convinced themselves Foden was, 5 years ago - wrongly. He's still a tactical headache to fit next to Bellingham. Less so than Foden maybe, because he fits england's football better, but you still have the issue of lacking width on the left, unless you ask Jude to stay wide

 

[stefan92]

If he wasn't good enough he wouldn't play. It is not like Germany have lack of players. It is big football country. Those important positions are being given to experienced players. Young players need time do develop into that position to function in best way possible. I think Pavlovic would be sitting on the bench for most of the time except some minutes here and there. He could have taken a player like Stiller who had good season but he also needs to get experience before being thrown into international football.

Of course, I literally said that Pavlovic was intented as Andrich's backup

Stiller is a good shout, but his problem isn't a lack of experience but Toni Kroos. This German team is built around Kroos and the midfielders either have to be able to replace him (which Groß probably can do the best) or work well with/for him (Andrich/Pavlovic/Can). Stiller isn't that good as a passer than Kroos/Groß and he isn't as good defensively as the other three, he is a more balanced CM. There is no space for his profile in the German team, he couldn't just slot into it. Besides that he also is already 23 and has played three Bundesliga seasons, so he doesn't exactly qualify as comparable to Mainoo.

If Nagelsmann had decided on a different overall strategy we could also have a midfield Goretzka/Stiller and I think that could work. But he didn't, so both of them are on holiday. But that allows us to circle back to England: What actually is Southgate's strategy and how are the players intented to fit it? That's not really obvious.

 

[ErikElevenHag]

Maybe that is why they couldn't get past Morocco in last World Cup.

People think that I'm against Mainoo. I'm not. Big, big talent. He is just still to young to play in this tournament. England should have gone with Henderson and Prowes instead of experiment with some players. There is zero leadership in midfield.

Midfield wasn't the issue for Spain in that world cup, it was a lack of attacking talent, which often mars the Spanish teams. Funny that you didn't respond about the other 2 who were mainstays for both finalists. You're talking nonsense, just accept it.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Why would you put Saka there?

Left footed,has history playing in a fullback role and for general team balance.

 

[Rockets Redglare]

That is something that can't be explained. I find it wierd from tactical point of view.


He played brilliant. I agree. He is still to young to play in that position in this kind of tournament. It is different football. Is there any team that plays teenager at that position? It is no surprise that France plays Rabiot and Kante and not players like Camavinga. There is reason why Andrich plays and not some young talent. Or why Ruiz plays when you got younger equal talents. You need experience.


That is different position. It is easier to play attacking football because if you make misstake it doesn't affect you in same way.

Your argument would hold some weight if we had some experience in the centre. Yet he’s playing a right back who looks terrified because he’s so out of his depth.

 

[Fr. Todd Unctious]

Was put out before the game and all

 

[FrankDrebin]

Fundamentally what holds England back is thier ignorance and thier arrogance.

 

[90 + 5min]

Of course, I literally said that Pavlovic was intented as Andrich's backup

Stiller is a good shout, but his problem isn't a lack of experience but Toni Kroos. This German team is built around Kroos and the midfielders either have to be able to replace him (which Groß probably can do the best) or work well with/for him (Andrich/Pavlovic/Can). Stiller isn't that good as a passer than Kroos/Groß and he isn't as good defensively as the other three, he is a more balanced CM. There is no space for his profile in the German team, he couldn't just slot into it. Besides that he also is already 23 and has played three Bundesliga seasons, so he doesn't exactly qualify as comparable to Mainoo.

If Nagelsmann had decided on a different overall strategy we could also have a midfield Goretzka/Stiller and I think that could work. But he didn't, so both of them are on holiday. But that allows us to circle back to England: What actually is Southgate's strategy and how are the players intented to fit it? That's not really obvious.

I'm starting to believe that Southgate have his favorites and they will play regardless. So if he needs to put them in different position he will do it. I don't see any strategy which I find shocking given that he had so much time to think about this. It is to late to bring right players in so he must change his approach and tactics. Some players need to get benched but who do you bring in? The main problem apart from midfield as I see it is lack of leadership. You got maybe Kane and Walker. Nowhere near good enough.

Midfield wasn't the issue for Spain in that world cup, it was a lack of attacking talent, which often mars the Spanish teams. Funny that you didn't respond about the other 2 who were mainstays for both finalists. You're talking nonsense, just accept it.

I've said that Enzo had like 3 seasons behind him in South America. Tchouameni was surrounded by quality. You don't have that in England right now. Spain had problems with experience.

 

[Natener]

Yeah he doesn't deserve it based on club form but you really need to have some tactical variety. The spots are not there to just fill them up with like 5 identical players who played well for their clubs without taking into account what tactical situations might be relevant in a tournament.

If his option #1 when faced with trouble is to sit in a low block and counter, you absolutely need someone like Rashford in there. He is still elite at running in behind and finishing.

22/23 he was elite at running in behind and finishing. 23/24 he didn’t show that at club level and doesn’t deserve to be called up. I agree with having options for tactical variety but it should still be based on players performing for the season at least. Maybe I’m old school, but I’m always of the mindset that national team callups are precious and a “reward”. FIFA has probably ruined that with the saturation of football.

 

[BluesJr]

Fundamentally what holds England back is thier ignorance and thier arrogance.

Correct, but the media and the fans are blind to it as always. Their fans are an absolute disgrace as well.

Also, why is Mainoo not being mentioned at all in any post game analysis of what they need to change? All I’m hearing about is Wharton.

 

[Red Stone]

Tchouameni was surrounded by quality. You don't have that in England right now.

Yeah, Rice is only a key player for one of the best club teams in the world right now and Bellingham only won Player of the Season in Germany as part of a double pivot and is knocking on the door of being a Ballon d'Or candidate now. No quality whatsoever...

It's international football. A Bellingham - Rice - Mainoo midfield has more quality than all the midfields in the tournament bar three or four, and none of those few teams are in England's group. The issue isn't Mainoo's lack of experience. It's that Southgate is too much of a clueless wanker to understand how to play to the strengths of his squad.

 

[The Firestarter]

90 + 4 + 1 mare in this thread

 

[90 + 5min]

Yeah, Rice is only a key player for one of the best club teams in the world right now and Bellingham only won Player of the Season in Germany as part of a double pivot and is knocking on the door of being a Ballon d'Or candidate now. No quality whatsoever...

It's international football. A Bellingham - Rice - Mainoo midfield has more quality than all the midfields in the tournament bar three or four, and none of those few teams are in England's group. The issue isn't Mainoo's lack of experience. It's that Southgate is too much of a clueless wanker to understand how to play to the strengths of his squad.

That is why England is playing so dominant right now. Brilliant players. Never been seen before in history of football.

 

[Red Stone]

That is why England is playing so dominant right now. Brilliant players. Never been seen before in history of football.

I see you failed to either read or comprehend the last part of my post. Not surprised.

A competent manager gets an easy nine points in this group.