Southgate does not know how to create a functioning attacking set-up even with all the talent England has, you cannot just tell the players go forward boys and goals will pour.
For that reason he only relies on defense.
Very very limited manager.
England Euro 2024 Squad and Discussion
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Southgate does not know how to create a functioning attacking set-up even with all the talent England has, you cannot just tell the players go forward boys and goals will pour.
For that reason he only relies on defense.
Very very limited manager.
TAA is playing a position he never plays, because even in the 5 or 10 midfield games he played for Liverpool it's an entirely different role than he is being asked to play (I think, because God knows what's being asked of him) for England at the moment. The one thing he could provide some added value in midfield is his excellent passing but literally no one is making runs in behind, and when you bring on the players who regularly do that, TAA has already been substituted. I've seen him slaughtered on here, and perhaps rightfully so because he simply hasn't been good at all, but he's also not being put in a position to succeed at all. You either play to his strengths or you don't play him at all, but this "experiment" has clearly failed.
Also meh on Rashford, he simply wasn't good this season and I doubt he would've made a true difference. If Southgate would've taken (and played) him, the entire country except for Utd fans would slag him off as well for playing the usual suspects who don't deliver (because of his poor system and tactics).
I usually think it's a cop out to blame everything on the manager but this is one of the rare cases in which I feel it's warranted. At this point you'd think they'd be better off choosing their starting XI and tactics amongst themselves and just let them play ball. We all know they're talented enough but they look disjointed. A downgrade from club football performance can somewhat be expected, but it's so noticeably larger with England than for other countries that I do think it's mostly down to Southgate.
You're making my point, thanks, and we have one of the strongest squads in the league, if we didn't we'd be bottom half as our underlying number suggests. A lot of United games are won by individual talent as there are no tactics. It doesn't matter how strong the squad is bad coaching will always hold you back. Look at some of the great teams that achieved nothing over the years.
Don't be silly.
I do sort of see what he is saying re Phillips.
Probably over eze in all honesty, taking both eze and Gordon to very inexperienced players who play in the same position.
Rashford had a poor season. But he has vast experience in comparison to eze and Gordon. And you know exactly what your going to get with him.
Probably over eze in all honesty, taking both eze and Gordon to very inexperienced players who play in the same position.
Rashford had a poor season. But he has vast experience in comparison to eze and Gordon. And you know exactly what your going to get with him.
I do think the players need to take some responsibility for yesterday’s performance. Some of the passing was just shocking. However, the way we are setup and the movements/positions they are finding themselves in is surely a result of Southgate tactics. Our pressing game is just awful as a unit, and when we do have the ball, the entire team is so sluggish to transition up the pitch. There’s no runs being made to get in behind and make the opposition panic. Any defensive line playing against England right now are going to have a merry old time.
For Southgate to say ‘we don’t have a natural replacement for Kalvin Phillips’, Kane saying ‘we didn’t know what to do when they dropped deep’. It paints a picture of how these players are managed tactically.
Also he’s so wet…can you imagine going in at half time and having Gareth Southgate motivate you / giving you orders
For Southgate to say ‘we don’t have a natural replacement for Kalvin Phillips’, Kane saying ‘we didn’t know what to do when they dropped deep’. It paints a picture of how these players are managed tactically.
Also he’s so wet…can you imagine going in at half time and having Gareth Southgate motivate you / giving you orders
We literally do, people can't see that because they confuse bad management with bad players. Only 3 teams have better squads which is why Ten Hag should be thrown to the wolves.
Great,
You get the sense that England won't be successful until they have a manager that is willing to make some really tough omissions from the starting line-up. It goes all the way back to Sven that England seem to pick the best players over the players that fit together well.
I'd love to see an England team line up with more pace and running up front. With this current squad, would it work with Gordon-Foden-Saka behind Watkins for example? At least it would give the opposition something to worry about with runs in behind. Also, just pick the best available left-footed left back.
I'd love to see an England team line up with more pace and running up front. With this current squad, would it work with Gordon-Foden-Saka behind Watkins for example? At least it would give the opposition something to worry about with runs in behind. Also, just pick the best available left-footed left back.
I don't if it's the power of the media that puts relentless pressure on them? Just imagine the shooting from the sidelines if he benched Foden or Rice or gasp...Kane or Bellingham. In Southgate's case he really needs to make some tough changes and decisions if he wants the team to improve. Slovenia is not going to be a pushover.
The only way it works to get the players he wants in, is the 5-2-2-1 formation, but he won't do that. In this formation he needs to drop one of Foden or Bellingham and drop Trent.
Maybe it is, but if the team started playing good football and got results it would shut the media right up. I don't buy into this whole "English media is terrible" narrative that is sometimes used. I bet the German, Spanish and French media can be brutal as well.
If I was Southgate I'd make some drastic changes for the Slovenia game. Bellingham, Kane and Alexander-Arnold wouldn't start.
Rashford is a known quantity. He's self-sufficient enough that you can leave your entire attacking left flank to him - thus solving the LB issue - and his skillset mixes beautifully with Bellingham's and Kane's.
In hindsight, dropping Graelish was also a mistake. Again, known quantity. For a side going into the tournament with 2 huge question marks, you should focus on everything else being rock solid
As for the media/public reaction - tough. That's what they're paying you for
They definitely can.
They also can be brutal in their assessment of England. Let's have a look at what kicker (Germany's most respectable football newspaper) comments about England yesterday:
https://www.kicker.de/gareth-in-der-loewengrube-1033340/artikel
and it continues in that style...
Playing that crap with the players available is a disgrace. Can’t believe he bought on Eze and Bowan instead of Palmer and Gordan. Southgate needs to change some things for the next match and change the tactics. Would definitely drop Bellingham a line back next to Rice, play Fodan at 10, and Gordan on the left wing. And even consider Saka at left back and play Palmer right wing. TAA shouldn’t be anywhere near the first team and he’s a full back possibly winger. And start playing the pressing game, get on the front foot and stay there. This squad should be winning the championship, not luckily drawing with Denmark.
He has a 22 goals, 11 assists season player on the bench who has featured a grant total of 0 minutes in the two games so far.
Kane is a known quantity and has shown little to nothing, nobody does when your have shit tactics.
This is just really weird from him. Everything good about Trippier, bar his set pieces, is lost when he's playing in that position. And since he's intent on shoehorning TAA in for some reason, you don't even get that. Foden off the left isn't giving width either, so that whole flank is a graveyard.
As to the forward line, I think you just need to get Kane and Watkins up top as a pair. Whether that means playing an Atletico-style 442 or reverting to the old 352, that would get a lot more out of the players at your disposal.
Different position. Different team. Different football. Different responsibility.
I like Mainoo. I only have good thing to say about him, except his speed. Playing international football in that position is not easy. He needs experience. You don’t get that being throw in just like that. His time will come.
Since 2018 England had a problem with midfielders. Was good in defense and especially in forward positions but usually with workhorses in midfield. Now they have quality midfielders, both holding and creative ones, yet Southgate refuses to use them. I'd bite love to have one of Gordon of Mainoo in Croatian team.
The Guardian - England look terrified and they have no functioning midfield
This line is actually pretty good:
This line is actually pretty good:
Nice quote!
Mainoo is the only midfielder in the camp who instinctively triangulates the centre of the pitch or enables squares to form seamlessly. That triangulation provides much easier progression through midfield as well as the easiest out ball for players who don’t - or can’t - pass through the lines with the frequency needed for that triangulation not to be as vitally important. Mainoo would make very short and simple passes viable and, as part of a bigger chain, far more progressive than they otherwise would be. A short pass to him could instantaneously open up the field given his penchant for turning on a sixpence and having a sudden vast open space in front of him. That ability forcibly impacts upon opposing midfielders who have to factor in a different framing of the pitch and the potential fallout for not being in the correct position, should Mainoo turn out and away with the ball. In turn, that alleviates pressure on teammates because the threat such a player carries immediately becomes the priority, and that more often than not leads to shelling up and trying to protect passing lanes more so than bodies. The onus is on teammates of Mainoo’s to use that time and hesitation to work for space and to exploit the concern and anticipation. Mainoo is also adept at carrying the ball a number of yards himself, which means it’s a damnable situation whether the opposition decide to stick (and hold shape), or twist (trying to close him down directly). This team is screaming out for connective tissue like Mainoo because it has neither elite ball carriers (ala FDJ) nor an incredible DLP who by himself can negate the need for the above.
Even with a lack of tactics, struggling and panicked players know to look toward that player who takes the pressure off them with their willingness to take the ball and responsibility for it on when they themselves are flapping. Mainoo is also the only player who will put his foot on the ball, make a turn or two and slow the play down, looking for the best option, which his weaving to safety buys him the time to do. England need this more than anything else to alleviate that collective exhaustion of running ceaselessly because of such dire use of the ball, so in saying this, Mainoo by himself has the potential to solve a hell of a lot of the issues within the team, at least insofar as midfield is concerned. Off the ball running for the forwards and fullbacks should also see an uptake with someone buying time to be smarter and more selective with their runs.
Even if that route isn’t preferred, then at least put Wharton in and attempt the other method, which is, as mentioned, the deeper player who can constantly pass through the lines or go long to the diagonals. But if you are to do that, it’s imperative there are players who are eager to run behind the lines at any given opportunity, which means Gordon and whoever best fits the profile on the right.
Bottom line is neither TAA nor Gallagher should be anywhere near that midfield and whether you pick Mainoo or Wharton, there is a more defined style of play with clearer objectives for all involved. To some extent, even Southgate can’t feck that up, but it does require absolute trust in whichever foil is used to do their job without interference.
It's all on Southgate.
He may as well have picked Henderson if he thought the squad was light in midfield.
There's no point bringing Mainoo and Wharton along if you don't trust either of them to play ahead of your fourth choice right-back in midfield.
Even the very best international sides tend to have one or two "weak" spots. England have a wealth of talent and they're being led by a spineless buffoon.
He’s taken ‘form players’ from the season who’s barely played for England and so he doesn’t trust them. The likes of Mainoo, Palmer and Wharton aren’t having a sniff.
If he’s not trusting the new players just call up the ones from the last tournament, Rashford, Graelish, Hendo, Sterling, Mount.
If he’s not trusting the new players just call up the ones from the last tournament, Rashford, Graelish, Hendo, Sterling, Mount.
Football is football. The pressure starting in an FA Cup final vs City is the more than playing in a Euros vs Serbia and Denmark.
But Gordon can offer the same thing rashford would he just isn't using him, like he isn't using quite a lot of his squad.
England might not have the players to play like Spain but they do have good players which if coached competently could be a very effective side
While I can understand some of your points, not sure I can agree about Rashford.
There are enough passengers in the team already. And Rashford has been exactly that for United, all season. And if he was picked and failed to perform, it would have shown that Southgate was not picking players on merit.
Yes Mainoo and Wharton are young and inexperienced.
But that can also be a good thing because they would be trying that much more to impress.
I have a feeling that the players think that Southgate is too easy going and they can get away with less than full committment and still get picked.
The problem is that he may not make changes for the next game because England need at least a draw to qualify.
But it is perfectly clear that the current system is not working.
Yeah. And that is why he wasn't selected.
It is not pressure. It is different football. He is still to young to play in that position in tournament like this. He needs to learn international football and european championship is not for that.
Apparently Højbjerg had as many shots on target as the whole English team. He did try some speculative efforts, but still.
I really hope all the Southgate to United rumours are rubbish.
I really hope all the Southgate to United rumours are rubbish.
It's not for experimenting with a right back in centre midfield either, but here we are.
He played brilliantly against a frankly world class Man City that won the league this season and a treble the year before.
But he is too young to play against Serbia and Denmark ?
You have players like Will Griggs and David Healy smashing international football. Stop over rating it. It’s not that difficult. The level is actually lower than club football.
It was pretty clear that the Danish team had talked about shooting from range due to this ball being very good for it. It was actually good to see, because with our lack of quality in wide areas our attacks often come to nothing. So it's good to actually finish an attack with an attempt on goal, even if it has a low chance to go in. Worked for Hjulmand, and with a bit more accuracy Højbjerg could have won it in the end.
It's lower because you can't have the automatisms in national teams that you can properly train at club level, simply because you lack the training time. The art of international football is to minimize this drop. You need to be open to a different style and need to be able to adjust quickly to it (that's where in my eyes Foden completely fails). Experience in different setups can help a lot to adjust to international football, but it also works if you just can play the same way you do for your club (not possible for most England players because Southgate is a clueless coward) or if you are just smart. I feel like Mainoo could be one of the smarter players and therefore be able to perform well.
I like how everyone thinks his name is Will Griggs, purely because of the "Will Grigg's on fire" song
I'd say it's indeed Southgate being inept but also because the likes of Pep, Klopp, Arteta play such a specific brand of football that Foden, TAA, Saka, Rice, ... might be struggling. The difference is certainly less big for a guy like Rodri coming into that Spain side given the way they play, let alone Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta who could just replicate the exact style they played for their club.
But I agree with the overall sentiment yeah. You just need to "tone it down" a bit so that the different styles of players blend in together well and find a common ground on tactics that works. Which seems something that for example Nagelsmann has found for Germany, that second goal against Hungary looked a lot like something City would do (and a position Gundogan found himself in very often), left-back overlap and a 45° cross to an attacker in the box. Think Kimmich did the same for one goal against Scotland.
Disagree massively with this.
You don't need to "learn" how to play international football, its the same game.
Look at some of the youngsters excelling in other teams, should they all be dropped in order to learn? Crazy post.
Ok, I've solved the issue, 4231:
You play Kane as a #10, with Bellingham and Rice behind him. Kane spent the majority of the last two games in our own half. Bellingham is instructed to be more disciplined and his job is to work with Rice. If he can't do this, he's dropped.
You play Watkins at #9, utilising him like how Kane had Son. Basically having a runner off of him. Kane drops deep, then can pass to the runners or holds up, lays off to player for a first time pass to the runners.
The current team lacks pace.
So you start Gordon on the left. I want high and wide pace for our #10 and for Foden to hit. This is Watkins and Gordon.
People who think this team and this coach will suddenly start dominating the ball, like City or Arsenal are deluded. Putting some good players together doesn't mean they'll start playing liquid football.
So be pragmatic, hit teams on the break because we won't or can't dominate possession.
The galling thing is, we are currently playing on the counter and on transition, but are playing the wrong players to make this work. Every time we won the ball back, we trundled up the pitch and made no attempt on goal. If we were a Spain type team, sure we can maintain possession but we are not and likely will never be that so why try?
So we are set up to dominate the ball, yet we can't dominate the ball. We retreat into a low block and try to spring a counter but are playing slow, untransitional players so we end up doing neither.
You play Kane as a #10, with Bellingham and Rice behind him. Kane spent the majority of the last two games in our own half. Bellingham is instructed to be more disciplined and his job is to work with Rice. If he can't do this, he's dropped.
You play Watkins at #9, utilising him like how Kane had Son. Basically having a runner off of him. Kane drops deep, then can pass to the runners or holds up, lays off to player for a first time pass to the runners.
The current team lacks pace.
So you start Gordon on the left. I want high and wide pace for our #10 and for Foden to hit. This is Watkins and Gordon.
People who think this team and this coach will suddenly start dominating the ball, like City or Arsenal are deluded. Putting some good players together doesn't mean they'll start playing liquid football.
So be pragmatic, hit teams on the break because we won't or can't dominate possession.
The galling thing is, we are currently playing on the counter and on transition, but are playing the wrong players to make this work. Every time we won the ball back, we trundled up the pitch and made no attempt on goal. If we were a Spain type team, sure we can maintain possession but we are not and likely will never be that so why try?
So we are set up to dominate the ball, yet we can't dominate the ball. We retreat into a low block and try to spring a counter but are playing slow, untransitional players so we end up doing neither.
The thing with TAA is, when he plays in midfield for Liverpool, its in a functioning, well coached team where the manager has identified what he wants someone to do in that position to match it with TAA's strengths as a player. So it is an "experiment" that is based on a logical plan. He is also with team mates who train with him every day so have built up an understanding of what his strengths are.
With Southgate, playing TAA in midfield is based on nothing more than "der Liverpool played him there so me play him there too". So is literally just playing a defender in midfield and expecting it to work for no reason. Which is not only dumb but insulting to every single English midfielder who could be playing there and insulting to TAA who ends up taking a load of flack for his manager's mistake. Especially when Southgate comes out with absolutely idiotic crap after the game like "we haven't found a Phillips replacement yet"....so he is calling Trent and all his other midfielders out as shitter than Calvin Phillips, who, even if that weren't ridiculous nonsense, he could have just picked anyway.
And even all this is just a symptom of the actual problem with England, which is Southgate.
Despite all the valid arguments about the limited time you have to coach a national team, more or less every other team at this tournament has a system, a plan and tactical discipline which you can very clearly see when watching the games. England you see a bunch of players trying to do things as individuals who don't seem to have been given any direction at all. It can't be the players because they have all as individuals shown they can play in a tactical set up for their clubs and do well.
I don't even think England purposely sit off and defend. I think that's just naturally what happens when you have a terrible manager who doesn't send the team onto the pitch with any kind of plan they can execute. After the game has had time to settle down you have one team that knows what its meant to be doing and does it, and one team that doesn't know what its meant to be doing, so doesn't do anything.
All this posturing over who to pick over who or what formation to put them in is pointless. The problem will still be the same, which is that the gameplan will be rely on individual brilliance and when that doesn't work blame the players for not knowing how to manage them.
With Southgate, playing TAA in midfield is based on nothing more than "der Liverpool played him there so me play him there too". So is literally just playing a defender in midfield and expecting it to work for no reason. Which is not only dumb but insulting to every single English midfielder who could be playing there and insulting to TAA who ends up taking a load of flack for his manager's mistake. Especially when Southgate comes out with absolutely idiotic crap after the game like "we haven't found a Phillips replacement yet"....so he is calling Trent and all his other midfielders out as shitter than Calvin Phillips, who, even if that weren't ridiculous nonsense, he could have just picked anyway.
And even all this is just a symptom of the actual problem with England, which is Southgate.
Despite all the valid arguments about the limited time you have to coach a national team, more or less every other team at this tournament has a system, a plan and tactical discipline which you can very clearly see when watching the games. England you see a bunch of players trying to do things as individuals who don't seem to have been given any direction at all. It can't be the players because they have all as individuals shown they can play in a tactical set up for their clubs and do well.
I don't even think England purposely sit off and defend. I think that's just naturally what happens when you have a terrible manager who doesn't send the team onto the pitch with any kind of plan they can execute. After the game has had time to settle down you have one team that knows what its meant to be doing and does it, and one team that doesn't know what its meant to be doing, so doesn't do anything.
All this posturing over who to pick over who or what formation to put them in is pointless. The problem will still be the same, which is that the gameplan will be rely on individual brilliance and when that doesn't work blame the players for not knowing how to manage them.
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