Downing to Liverpool?

RedRover said:
If they click it'll be a very useful asset for Liverpool.

I expect Carroll to get more than a few and Suarez to get on the end of some knock downs as well.
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As one of the most expensive strikers in the world, ever, you would expect Carroll to get more "than a few", and obviously Suarez will get on the end of some.

Whether that is enough for Liverpool to qualify for the CL and challenge for the title is the question though.
 
RedRover said:
ENglish players always cost more.

United paid the same for Young who (I think) is a similar age and appears to be of similar ability if last season is anything to go on.

Carroll was a transfer driven by circumstance at the time, Liverpool being cahs rich and desperate for a striker, and seemingly keen to fend of any interest which might have materialised this summer for him had he had a decent end to the season.

certainly shows that the board mean business. I suspect if they get into the CL this year they'll back Kenny again.
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Young is a better player than Downing, and we paid less.

English players cost more. But there is a world of difference between paying more for English players and paying what Liverpool have for these two players.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
As one of the most expensive strikers in the world, ever, you would expect Carroll to get more "than a few", and obviously Suarez will get on the end of some.

Whether that is enough for Liverpool to qualify for the CL and challenge for the title is the question though.
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I think he will get more than a few. I was speaking generally. I think he'll get at least 15 - 20. Plus, his ability to bully defenders should leave a bit of space for others to chip in as well. Suarez could be a revelation based on how quickly he settled last season.

I personally think they'll challenge for fourth and think without serious investment on a few key player Arsenal could be on the slide.

They might keep Nasri but his head has likely been turned already. Fabregas will go and the general feeling appears to be one of doom and gloom which could have an effect on the season.

Looking at Arsenal at the moment I dont see many "battlers" who'll be prepared to put the hard yards in if they lose the likes of Fabregas. Wenger fosters a "blaming culture" - when things go wrong its the referee's fault, or the wrong type of grass, or the opposition being too physical - I get the feeling the players react the same, rather than adopting a backs to wall mentality you see at United and last season at Liverpool once Dalglish took over.

This is a huge summer for Wenger - needs to completely change his attitide and spend some serious cash on the right players. It wont be easy for him to climb down by firstly spending on established players and secondly by bringing in a couple of "tougher" players (especially in Defence) after being so vocal about the likes of Blackburn and Stoke in the past.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Young is a better player than Downing, and we paid less.

English players cost more. But there is a world of difference between paying more for English players and paying what Liverpool have for these two players.
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Perhaps he is - but Downing isn't far off and arguably had a better season than Young last year.

I cant see why people are obssesed with what they've paid. Maybe they have paid over the odds - but so what? The owners can clearly afford it, and the fact that Downing might have cost £5 million more than he should wont make him, or any players around him a "worse" player. What they've done with Downing is bought a player who has shown he can do it in the PL.

All clubs (United included) have over paid for players over the years, its part of the game, but if you get the players you want, in the grand scheme of things the manager, fans and players wont care - if anything the fans will be pleased that the manager is being backed, especially given the crap they had with the last lot.

As it is having a decent winger supplying crosses for Carroll, who is the type of player even top defenders dont like playing against it should work out well. Might be a bit old school for some but it'll probably be effective.
 
RedRover said:
I cant see why people are obssesed with what they've paid. Maybe they have paid over the odds - but so what? The owners can clearly afford it, and the fact that Downing might have cost £5 million more than he should wont make him, or any players around him a "worse" player. What they've done with Downing is bought a player who has shown he can do it in the PL.
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The problem is that the £6-7m overpaid for Downing would have bought that leftback they need just as badly.
 
RedRover said:
Perhaps he is - but Downing isn't far off and arguably had a better season than Young last year.

I cant see why people are obssesed with what they've paid. Maybe they have paid over the odds - but so what? The owners can clearly afford it, and the fact that Downing might have cost £5 million more than he should wont make him, or any players around him a "worse" player. What they've done with Downing is bought a player who has shown he can do it in the PL.

All clubs (United included) have over paid for players over the years, its part of the game, but if you get the players you want, in the grand scheme of things the manager, fans and players wont care - if anything the fans will be pleased that the manager is being backed, especially given the crap they had with the last lot.

As it is having a decent winger supplying crosses for Carroll, who is the type of player even top defenders dont like playing against it should work out well. Might be a bit old school for some but it'll probably be effective.
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Why have you spent most of this summer on a mission to defend every one of Liverpool's signings?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Why have you spent most of this summer on a mission to defend every one of Liverpool's signings?
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Perhaps that is what he really thinks. I posted a very similar post in regard to the Downing signing a few days ago. Along the lines of if they have the cash why should it matter.

Is he meant to lie and say it’s a shit signing even if he does not believe so?

He posted a well-constructed post and gave reasons etc.. Not the usual "Liverpool LOL" shite that is spouted so frequently
 
Of course they will be able to challenge for fourth place, but they are spending so much money the should be title challengers. They won't be.

I am just baffled by the fees. Without knowing much about their owners, I foubt the have unlimited budgets ala City.
 
peterstorey said:
The problem is that the £6-7m overpaid for Downing would have bought that leftback they need just as badly.
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Its not a problem if they have another £6 or £7 million for the left back though is it?

The owners are putting their money where their mouth is at the moment, seemingly with big plans regarding a new stadium and CL football.

It seems apparent that they'll back the manager to get the players he wants and I doubt they'd quibble over a few more million given the level of investment already made in the club in general.
 
RedRover said:
Its not a problem if they have another £6 or £7 million for the left back though is it?

The owners are putting their money where their mouth is at the moment, seemingly with big plans regarding a new stadium and CL football.

It seems apparent that they'll back the manager to get the players he wants and I doubt they'd quibble over a few more million given the level of investment already made in the club in general.
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Only true if they have unlimited funds
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Why have you spent most of this summer on a mission to defend every one of Liverpool's signings?
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What's it to you?

The main reason is that I like the players they've brought in.

Working in Newcastle I kept a keen eye on Andy Carroll and was impressed with what I saw, especially as he's english and a bit different to what we've got. Suarez last year also impressed based on what I saw of him back end of the season.

I liked the look of Henderson as my posts long before his transfer to liverpool show. As another young player from the North East I'm interested in his progress in the hope he'll become a top player for England.

I think Adam is a decent signing for the money paid and also think that Downing is a decent signing when you've got a 6ft odd target man like Carroll who's so good in the air.

Its not rocket science - just simple opinion based on my experiences in watching football over a fair few years in that I think they're building a decent squad for a side currently outside the top 4.

Some people may have a blind hatred of Liverpool and other teams and want to laugh at whatever they do and thats fine, but I'm simply a bit more pragmatic. Maybe that offends people or makes me less of a fan in their eyes, but the last time I checked this was an internet forum welcoming people's opinions.
 
RedRover said:
What's it to you?

The main reason is that I like the players they've brought in.

Working in Newcastle I kept a keen eye on Andy Carroll and was impressed with what I saw, especially as he's english and a bit different to what we've got. Suarez last year also impressed based on what I saw of him back end of the season.

I liked the look of Henderson as my posts long before his transfer to liverpool show. As another young player from the North East I'm interested in his progress in the hope he'll become a top player for England.

I think Adam is a decent signing for the money paid and also think that Downing is a decent signing when you've got a 6ft odd target man like Carroll who's so good in the air.

Its not rocket science - just simple opinion based on my experiences in watching football over a fair few years in that I think they're building a decent squad for a side currently outside the top 4.

Some people may have a blind hatred of Liverpool and other teams and want to laugh at whatever they do and thats fine, but I'm simply a bit more pragmatic. Maybe that offends people or makes me less of a fan in their eyes, but the last time I checked this was an internet forum welcoming people's opinions.
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Wrong, you must now be tarred and feathered and called a scouser for at least a week ;)
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Only true if they have unlimited funds
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Really?

What if they have another £20 million to spend and only need a left back?

I personally think that a manager will have in his mind what players he wants before he goes out and starts spending, therefore avoiding spending too much on one player and not leaving enough for another. Given that PL managers are spening millions of pounds I suspect its all very tightly considered long before anything is done.

I suppose its all relative anyway. Downing might provide 10 assists next year which may be the difference in getting them in the top 4 - so the slight over spend (especially if Arsenal were interested as alleged) might turn out to be worth it.

Ashely Young may be a better player in many people's eyes but it seems United may have paid a lot for a player with only a year left in his contract. Some might say that was over paying when he could have joined on a free next year - all a matter for the manager and money men I suppose - clearly both clubs think said player is worth it.
 
I think it's telling that Liverpool were after Young first. They missed out on him so moved on to Downing. I think we've got the better player for 5m less, regardless of his contract situation. You can't really argue with that.
 
We did over-pay for Young, but by probably by 3-4m. Liverpool has paid 10m more for Downing than he is worth.

To me, the likes of Downing and Carroll are no better than what they've had before inCrouch, Bellamy and Pennant. The difference being the massive differences in fees.

And the more they overpay for players, the less they've got to spend on other players.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Not that it bothers me, but you seem to be very positive about all things Liverpool and equally negative about United...
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I dont think I am - I just have the opinions I have.

I clearly care far more about United than I do any other side and currently think they need to address issues, especially in midfield which hopefully the club will do. I dont think thats particularly controversial given that the general consensus on the boards and in general seems to be just that. I felt the same last season in terms of the squad needing at least one midfield player - although it all worked out well in the end.

The point is it is again all relative - as a United fan I always want them to improve, and to be able to go toe to toe with the likes of Barca, to be consistently better than the Chelsea's and Arsenal's of the world - to be the best of the best year on year.

If I see players who I think aren't up to the task, or when I see a poor result errors I get frustrated like any fan does, and although I dont by any means think I'm always right I do what most people on here do and spout those frustrations on here, usually finding a fair few who agree.

As regards Liverpool or any other club, not having the same passion for their predicaments, I judge things on what I see - in this case a side with lower ambitions than United buying decent players and improving in the hope that they can break the top four.

The football fan in me likes it when clubs try to improve becuase it makes for an exciting league, especially in this case given the rivalry between Liverpool and United. I dont really see whats wrong with that.
 
Time will tell who's the better player. I don't really rate them to be honest. Both players are tidy players for a mid-table club. Let's hope Young proves me wrong.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
I think Young already has to be honest.
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Young definately has the ability to be a top player - if he can step up a level, and he wont have any better opportunity than this.

I'm excited to see how he does this year, hopefully he really pushes on.
 
so that's nearly 50m for average players(Henderson, Adam, Downing), and nearly 100m including that oaf Carroll. After all the deadwood Houllier and Benitez brought to the club. They will never learn it seems...
 
You could bet that if it was the other way round, with us signing Downing and Pool signing Young, the opinions would be completely different on the two.

I had high hopes for Joe Cole when he went to Pool. He turned out shit. I can see Downing doing a steady job, but he's nothing.. remarkable. It's no improvement on what they've already got. Same could be said with us about Young.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
I agree, if you reach your targets, then the price paid is somewhat irrellevant. But that is a big if. I just notice that you have paid 70m+ for three players worth around 30-35m.
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Football doesn't always follow a logical route though does it ?. Manchester United are pretty much nailed on for a top 2 spot. But for the rest, there are a few imponderables that need to be taken into account for next season: Chelsea have another new manager, along with quite a few lads who are becoming past their sell by date. Their terrific start last season papered over quite a few cracks. They 'should' be your closest challengers. But there's more than a few question marks against Chelsea for my liking - Despite all their wealth, City flattered to deceive for parts of last season. Big egos tend to come with big name foreign players. I personally don't feel that Mancini is good enough for a side wanting to challenge for the title. & I feel a lot of the foreign lads will save themselves for the big CL games (we saw this at Anfield prior to their FA Cup semi-final) - As for Arsenal. Well there's not much I need to add that hasn't been said over the past 2 or 3 years. Lots of style, but seriously lacking in substance, & a few key players wanting out - Spurs actually back up my point about football & logic not always being compatible bedfellows. 70 points in 2010 & CL football. Improve squad with quality like Van Der Vaart. But 62 points & 5th place in 2011. Nuff said as far as I'm concerned.

You seem to be getting hung-up on us paying over the odds for players. I'm not disagreeing about the prices we've paid. But the aim for Dalglish was to improve the squad. & I think it's fair to say he's done that. However, the one crucial thing people seem to be overlooking here, yourself included, is that regardless of who a manager brings in, it's down to the aforementioned guy to make it work out there on the pitch. Kenny has proved in the past that he's got what it takes on that score. He showed on more than one occasion last season, that even with a depleted squad of players, he can get his side playing some good football. So all things considered (except logic of course), there's no reason why we shouldn't improve. Because after all, the name of the game is achieving a points total that will help you reach your target. & looking at what we have, I don't feel adding an extra 10 -12 points on last season's total is being overly ambitious.........Of course, the old bastard called 'logic' could well come along & kick us in the balls ;)
 
Wayne_Rooney said:
You could bet that if it was the other way round, with us signing Downing and Pool signing Young, the opinions would be completely different on the two.

I had high hopes for Joe Cole when he went to Pool. He turned out shit. I can see Downing doing a steady job, but he's nothing.. remarkable. It's no improvement on what they've already got. Same could be said with us about Young.
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Well, that's not true, they haven't had quality wingers since... well, since John Barnes, really. Downing isn't quite that category but he's an improvement on what they have now.
 
redman5 said:
Football doesn't always follow a logical route though does it ?. Manchester United are pretty much nailed on for a top 2 spot. But for the rest, there are a few imponderables that need to be taken into account for next season: Chelsea have another new manager, along with quite a few lads who are becoming past their sell by date. Their terrific start last season papered over quite a few cracks. They 'should' be your closest challengers. But there's more than a few question marks against Chelsea for my liking - Despite all their wealth, City flattered to deceive for parts of last season. Big egos tend to come with big name foreign players. I personally don't feel that Mancini is good enough for a side wanting to challenge for the title. & I feel a lot of the foreign lads will save themselves for the big CL games (we saw this at Anfield prior to their FA Cup semi-final) - As for Arsenal. Well there's not much I need to add that hasn't been said over the past 2 or 3 years. Lots of style, but seriously lacking in substance, & a few key players wanting out - Spurs actually back up my point about football & logic not always being compatible bedfellows. 70 points in 2010 & CL football. Improve squad with quality like Van Der Vaart. But 62 points & 5th place in 2011. Nuff said as far as I'm concerned.

You seem to be getting hung-up on us paying over the odds for players. I'm not disagreeing about the prices we've paid. But the aim for Dalglish was to improve the squad. & I think it's fair to say he's done that. However, the one crucial thing people seem to be overlooking here, yourself included, is that regardless of who a manager brings in, it's down to the aforementioned guy to make it work out there on the pitch. Kenny has proved in the past that he's got what it takes on that score. He showed on more than one occasion last season, that even with a depleted squad of players, he can get his side playing some good football. So all things considered (except logic of course), there's no reason why we shouldn't improve. Because after all, the name of the game is achieving a points total that will help you reach your target. & looking at what we have, I don't feel adding an extra 10 -12 points on last season's total is being overly ambitious.........Of course, the old bastard called 'logic' could well come along & kick us in the balls ;)
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I don't disagree with any of that. However, Dalglish has spent more than 100m since January, a large chunk of that on average players. For that kind of money I would expect more than a 10 point improvement!

If someone suggested 12 months ago that you lot would spend 55m on Downing and Carroll, what would you have said?
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
I don't disagree with any of that. However, Dalglish has spent more than 100m since January, a large chunk of that on average players. For that kind of money I would expect more than a 10 point improvement!

If someone suggested 12 months ago that you lot would spend 55m on Downing and Carroll, what would you have said?
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Plenty of sides are better than the sum of their parts - Fergie has over the years made masterstroke signings of players you could suggest are "average" and created great sides.

The likes of Berg, Johnsen, Solskjaer, Blomqvist, Yorke, Sheringham (a player arguably past his peak) were hardly stellar names but were integrated into a squad which became one of the best around. Indeed, people are always banging on on here about how Fergie rarely signs established players.

Its all about building a team which compliments each other and finding players who will settle quickly and work hard, and signing a solid base of English players will obviously help.

The fact is not many clubs can compete for world class stars, and even if you can it doesnt always work out - as Real Madrid have shown.

As for Carroll I think he's got a lot of promise if he knuckles down. He showed last year that he has the strength and power to give teams real problems and I think his partnership with Suarez could be very productive.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
I don't disagree with any of that. However, Dalglish has spent more than 100m since January, a large chunk of that on average players. For that kind of money I would expect more than a 10 point improvement!
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You're distorting the argument though - Downing, Carroll and Suarez don't fit anyone's definition of 'average'. 'Average' players don't become full England internationals, or shine for Uruguay at World Cups.

You also can't state in concrete, as you do, that 100m equals more than a 10 pt improvement. It depends which team you pour that money into, and what state they're in, as well as the activities of clubs around them.

With United and City spending as they are, you could just as easily argue you need to spend 100m just to stand still at the top of the PL.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
You're distorting the argument though - Downing, Carroll and Suarez don't fit anyone's definition of 'average'. 'Average' players don't become full England internationals, or shine for Uruguay at World Cups.

You also can't state in concrete, as you do, that 100m equals more than a 10 pt improvement. It depends which team you pour that money into, and what state they're in, as well as the activities of clubs around them.

With United and City spending as they are, you could just as easily argue you need to spend 100m just to stand still at the top of the PL.
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Depends on your definition of "average" but there's a lot of players have become "full England internationals" over the years that wouldn't be anywhere near good enough to be a regular for a team with ambitions of CL football.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
You're distorting the argument though - Downing, Carroll and Suarez don't fit anyone's definition of 'average'. 'Average' players don't become full England internationals, or shine for Uruguay at World Cups.

You also can't state in concrete, as you do, that 100m equals more than a 10 pt improvement. It depends which team you pour that money into, and what state they're in, as well as the activities of clubs around them.

With United and City spending as they are, you could just as easily argue you need to spend 100m just to stand still at the top of the PL.
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Wayne Bridge? David Nugent? Carlton Cole? Robert Green? Gareth Barry? Shawn Wright Phillips? Emile Heskey? Upson? Kevin Davies?


Christ need I go on?
 
Lynk said:
Wayne Bridge? David Nugent? Carlton Cole? Robert Green? Gareth Barry? Shawn Wright Phillips? Emile Heskey? Upson? Kevin Davies?


Christ need I go on?
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Whatever suits you sir. My definition of average seems to differ wildly from most other's here - I'd guess that Carroll is in line to become an England regular, Downing too now he's moved to Liverpool maybe. Neither of them would be seen as average in my opinion...

Do you consider Ashley Young average?
 
BaldwinLegend said:
You're distorting the argument though - Downing, Carroll and Suarez don't fit anyone's definition of 'average'. 'Average' players don't become full England internationals, or shine for Uruguay at World Cups.

You also can't state in concrete, as you do, that 100m equals more than a 10 pt improvement. It depends which team you pour that money into, and what state they're in, as well as the activities of clubs around them.

With United and City spending as they are, you could just as easily argue you need to spend 100m just to stand still at the top of the PL.
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Yep. Heskey, Jenas, Bentley, Dyer, Vassell - all waaaay above average players, called in recent years.:rolleyes:
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Depends on your definition of "average" but there's a lot of players have become "full England internationals" over the years that wouldn't be anywhere near good enough to be a regular for a team with ambitions of CL football.
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Most people, if not all, would have considered Ashley Young to be just that, before he signed for United.
 
Dunno about "any old shit" but there's a lot of shit on that list and a lot of mediocre players that have pulled on an England shirt over the years.

You can get into an argument about the semantics of what "average" or "mediocre" means but I think we all know that getting caps for England is no guarantee that any given player is good enough for a team with CL aspirations, with a long list of examples to support this opinion.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
Yeah, you're right. England just call up any old shit don't they?
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.. Warnock, Richardson, Lescott, Huddlestone, Agbonlahor....

It's not like their recent results show quality in the team doesn't they?

Failed to qualify for the 08 EURO, 10 - 3 awful matches against the superstars Slovenia, USA and Algeria - qualified by the skin of their teeth, dismantled by Germany in the 1/8 finals...
 
Let's sign Emile Heskey then. He was a full English International, he isn't shite at all.
 
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