Downing to Liverpool?

[RedRover]

Whatever suits you sir. My definition of average seems to differ wildly from most other's here - I'd guess that Carroll is in line to become an England regular, Downing too now he's moved to Liverpool maybe. Neither of them would be seen as average in my opinion...

Do you consider Ashley Young average?

It seems the major issue is that a lot of people don't seem to rate English players.

Had Liverpool signed (for example) Llorente instead of Carroll and Mata instead of Downing the general consensus from most fans would be that they were brilliant signings, despite the fact that neither have PL experience, and the very real issue that not every player is suited to the PL regardless of talent, as the likes of Forlan seem to have shown.

Clubs do pay more for English talent, sometimes wildly inflated prices, but you can see why. Succesful teams in the PL generally have a solid base of English players making it easy to know what you will get.

Downing will never win world player of the year, but he can sling in a fantastic cross and has provied his varsatility at Villa, picking up Villa's player of the year in the process. Carroll came into the PL an unknow entity and gave some very good defences a torrid time and as a young lad could get improve drastically over the next few years. As such I wouldn't deem either "average" - both being good solid PL players of the type that United and other clubs have doen very well with over the years, and with potential to improve in a better side.

 

[Kraftwerker]

It seems the major issue is that a lot of people don't seem to rate English players.

Had Liverpool signed (for example) Llorente instead of Carroll and Mata instead of Downing the general consensus from most fans would be that they were brilliant signings, despite the fact that neither have PL experience, and the very real issue that not every player is suited to the PL regardless of talent, as the likes of Forlan seem to have shown.

Clubs do pay more for English talent, sometimes wildly inflated prices, but you can see why. Succesful teams in the PL generally have a solid base of English players making it easy to know what you will get.

Downing will never win world player of the year, but he can sling in a fantastic cross and has provied his varsatility at Villa, picking up Villa's player of the year in the process. Carroll came into the PL an unknow entity and gave some very good defences a torrid time and as a young lad could get improve drastically over the next few years. As such I wouldn't deem either "average" - both being good solid PL players of the type that United and other clubs have doen very well with over the years, and with potential to improve in a better side.

United don't sign 'good solid PL players' for £35m. I think the only recent time we've signed a good solid PL player for a slightly inflated fee was Carrick for £18.6m.

The thing that makes me laugh is that a season or two back, Liverpool could have signed Henderson, Carroll, Adam and Downing for not much more than £8.5m combined, rather than the £85m it is now.

And in that intervening time what have they done to justify a ten-fold increase in price? In reality, not a great deal.

Mugs.

 

[Enigma_87]

Let's sign Emile Heskey then. He was a full English International, he isn't shite at all.

Yep, then the list gets longer - Beattie, C.Cole, Carson, Green, Andrew Johnson, Phillips, Shorey, I'm sure I'm missing most of the shocking call ups, but these are just on the top of my head.

 

[Justin]

The thing that makes me laugh is that a season or two back, Liverpool could have signed Henderson, Carroll, Adam and Downing for not much more than £8.5m combined, rather than the £85m it is now.

Downing alone went for 12m when he moved to Villa didn't he?

 

[Brwned]

United don't sign 'good solid PL players' for £35m. I think the only recent time we've signed a good solid PL player for a slightly inflated fee was Carrick for £18.6m.

The thing that makes me laugh is that a season or two back, Liverpool could have signed Henderson, Carroll, Adam and Downing for not much more than £8.5m combined, rather than the £85m it is now.

And in that intervening time what have they done to justify a ten-fold increase in price? In reality, not a great deal.

Mugs.

Downing went to Villa for £12m. Only reason I chose to point that out in your case is because it seems many forget this, he might be a £10m player in your eyes but he was signed from the Championship for more than that and he's developed since then so I don't think it's quite true.

 

[BaldwinLegend]

Dunno about "any old shit" but there's a lot of shit on that list and a lot of mediocre players that have pulled on an England shirt over the years.

You can get into an argument about the semantics of what "average" or "mediocre" means but I think we all know that getting caps for England is no guarantee that any given player is good enough for a team with CL aspirations, with a long list of examples to support this opinion.

I think cnut means 'average PL players' but I'd say that even that would be slightly unfair on Downing and Carroll as they are now, let alone on how they might now develop. It's certainly massively unfair on Suarez.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Downing went to Villa for £12m. Only reason I chose to point that out in your case is because it seems many forget this, he might be a £10m player in your eyes but he was signed from the Championship for more than that and he's developed since then so I don't think it's quite true.

Downing is the exception in fairness, though I don't think he was much more than a £8m player a season or two ago.

Carroll, Henderson and Adam could've been bought for peanuts. Let's say, two years ago, you could've got them all for about £12m.

 

[BaldwinLegend]

Downing is the exception in fairness, though I don't think he was much more than a £8m player a season or two ago.

Carroll, Henderson and Adam could've been bought for peanuts. Let's say, two years ago, you could've got them all for about £12m.

They could have got any number of barely known very young British players for that too - who knows how they'd have turned out. United could have got Carrick, Rio or even Young for far less if they'd bought them a few seasons earlier. It's the way of the world - sometimes you don't need them at the time, or they only come to prominence later.

I think Liverpool are simply paying to correct the dafter elements of the Houllier and Benitez regimes - all those millions spent on unknown young foreign players who got loaned back to their clubs, or never heard of again.

Dalglish thinks he needs to by home based players who are ready for the 1st team - a transfer strategy guaranteed to cost millions.

 

[RedRover]

United don't sign 'good solid PL players' for £35m. I think the only recent time we've signed a good solid PL player for a slightly inflated fee was Carrick for £18.6m.

The thing that makes me laugh is that a season or two back, Liverpool could have signed Henderson, Carroll, Adam and Downing for not much more than £8.5m combined, rather than the £85m it is now.

And in that intervening time what have they done to justify a ten-fold increase in price? In reality, not a great deal.

Mugs.

They signed Dwight Yorke for £12 million and Henning Berg for £5 million ( which I believe were British records). They smashed the British record to sign Andy Cole - a player who impressed when Newcastle gained promotion and impressed in his first PL season - and was accused by many of being a "limited" player at best and not worth the money. A bit similar to Carroll.

You're right that they probably have paid over the odds, but its all relative - for example, Lescott and Milner went for in excess of what Downing and Young have - it all depends on a players contract position, the strength of negotiation of the buying club and numerous other factors.

I personally think that players at any club and regardless of the fee will be judged on perfromances and if they do well the fans and club will be happy. Especially at Liverpool where they are going after realistic transfer targets for a club outside the top 4 - its not as if they'd be signing Messi or Ronaldo.

As for "what they could have paid" you could play that game all day. What would United have paid for Berbatov when he moved to Spurs, or Carrick when he left West Ham, or Sanchez when he signed for Udinese? Its potentially endless.

 

[WR]

Downing went to Villa for £12m. Only reason I chose to point that out in your case is because it seems many forget this, he might be a £10m player in your eyes but he was signed from the Championship for more than that and he's developed since then so I don't think it's quite true.

What does this mean? What is a 10M player?

Players and prices are subjective and differ greatly. Liverpool will pay more because they don't have a good winger, whereas we wouldn't because we've got 3 better ones.

 

[dumbo]

The thing that makes me laugh is that a season or two back, Liverpool could have signed Henderson, Carroll, Adam and Downing for not much more than £8.5m combined, rather than the £85m it is now.

And in that intervening time what have they done to justify a ten-fold increase in price? In reality, not a great deal.

Mugs.

That's erroneous.

Besides, you can't judge a signing based on what he might have cost a year ago, otherwise every club could look a mug. Bebe (totally ignoring the debate about his quality) could have been had for £100,000, what had he done to justify a seventy-fold increase in price? In reality, you get the picture.

Personally I think they have signed some very good players, (Henderson and Carrol in particular) at some very bad prices (Henderson and Carrol in particular).

 

[Kraftwerker]

They signed Dwight Yorke for £12 million and Henning Berg for £5 million ( which I believe were British records). They smashed the British record to sign Andy Cole - a player who impressed when Newcastle gained promotion and impressed in his first PL season - and was accused by many of being a "limited" player at best and not worth the money. A bit similar to Carroll.

You're right that they probably have paid over the odds, but its all relative - for example, Lescott and Milner went for in excess of what Downing and Young have - it all depends on a players contract position, the strength of negotiation of the buying club and numerous other factors.

I personally think that players at any club and regardless of the fee will be judged on perfromances and if they do well the fans and club will be happy. Especially at Liverpool where they are going after realistic transfer targets for a club outside the top 4 - its not as if they'd be signing Messi or Ronaldo.

As for "what they could have paid" you could play that game all day. What would United have paid for Berbatov when he moved to Spurs, or Carrick when he left West Ham, or Sanchez when he signed for Udinese? Its potentially endless.

The difference is Berbatov proved himself to be one of the best strikers in the league at Spurs, with an unmatched goal and assist record. Alexis Sanchez is probably the best young talent in Serie A. There's a reason their fees sky-rocketed.

The players I've mentioned haven't done all that much to justify up to a ten-fold increase in price.

Liverpool don't have a great record nurturing talent either, especially young players. Stagnation and decline are Anfield's fortés.

 

[Kraftwerker]

That's erroneous.

Besides, you can't judge a signing based on what he might have cost a year ago, otherwise every club could look a mug. Bebe (totally ignoring the debate about his quality) could have been had for £100,000, what had he done to justify a seventy-fold increase in price? In reality, you get the picture.

Personally I think they have signed some very good players, (Henderson and Carrol in particular) at some very bad prices (Henderson and Carrol in particular).

Nothing, but then he was an exception.

Liverpool have basically made an art form of being mugged for mid-level players.

Tevez will go for £40m, £5m more than Andy Carroll.

 

[RedRover]

The difference is Berbatov proved himself to be one of the best strikers in the league at Spurs, with an unmatched goal and assist record. Alexis Sanchez is probably the best young talent in Serie A. There's a reason their fees sky-rocketed.

The players I've mentioned haven't done all that much to justify up to a ten-fold increase in price.

Liverpool don't have a great record nurturing talent either, especially young players. Stagnation and decline are Anfield's fortés.

Berbatov was one of the best strikers in the league - but its arguable that Downing was one of the best wingers in the league on last years form as well, in terms of better players based on performaces there cant be more than a handful, most of whom will be at top clubs playing in much better sides with better forwards to stick the chances away.

Liverpool are suffering in the same way that Chelsea did - scouring the globe and spending money on young talent which didnt work out, but now they seem to have a good crop of young players coming through - seemingly rated by Guardiola in a recent interview as some of the best talent around.

 

[RedRover]

Nothing, but then he was an exception.

Liverpool have basically made an art form of being mugged for mid-level players.

Tevez will go for £40m, £5m more than Andy Carroll.

All that does is highlight the fact that there are numerous factors which affect a players value, in this case the fact that his wages are enormous and the major factor that he desperately wants out. If he wasnt desperate to go he'd be worth much more on the open market.

You could compare any two transfers but its compeltely futile - i.e. Is Ronaldo twice the player of Tevez? Probably not.

In terms of what Liverpool paid for Carroll if he goes onto to notch 15 - 20 goals a season for the next 10 years then I'm sure the club, the fans and the manager will be happy with the deal, rather than worrying about the money they could have saved.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Berbatov was one of the best strikers in the league - but its arguable that Dowing was one of the best wingers in the league on last years form as well, ini terms of better players based on performaces there cant be more than a handfull, most of whom will be at top clubs playing in much better sides with better forwards to stick the chances away.

Liverpool arre suffering in the same way that Chelsea did - scouring the globe and spending money on young talent which didnt work out, but now they seem to have a good crop of young players coming through - seemingly rated by Guardiola in a recent interview as some of the best talent around.

Downing is not a top level player, nor is he ever likely to become one. Lip-stick on a pig.

I'm getting flashbacks to the Robbie Keane transfer, and people saying what a great signing he was, good Prem quality player, guaranteed to get goals and assists, will be great alongside Torres (M&M), who cares about the fee etc.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

All that does is highlight the fact that there are numerous factors which affect a players value, in this case the fact that his wages are enormous and the major factor that he desperately wants out. If he wasnt desperate to go he'd be worth much more on the open market.

You could compare any two transfers but its compeltely futile - i.e. Is Ronaldo twice the player of Tevez? Probably not.

In terms of what Liverpool paid for Carroll if he goes onto to notch 15 - 20 goals a season for the next 10 years then I'm sure the club, the fans and the manager will be happy with the deal, rather than worrying about the money they could have saved.

You've used that logic before. It's absurd.

You could say that about every player ever signed by any manager "oh well, if he goes on to spend the next 10 years as one of the best players in the league in his positions then he'll be a great signing". No shit, sherlock.

On that basis, it's impossible for Dalglish (or any other manager) to make a bad signing. Not that you seem all that bothered about defending signings made by managers other than Kenny Dalglish.

 

[RedRover]

Downing is not a top level player, nor is he ever likely to become one. Lip-stick on a pig.

I'm getting flashbacks to the Robbie Keane transfer, and people saying what a great signing he was, good Prem quality player, guaranteed to get goals and assists, will be great alongside Torres (M&M), who cares about the fee etc.

You miss the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread.

It doesnt matter whether Dowing is a "top level player" - whatever that means. Clearly a club outside the top four will probably not be able to get those players because its pretty much all about the CL. Indeed, I'd be interested to hear suggestions about who people think would have been a better buy for a club which needed a left winger?

The question is whether he'll improve the team he's at and whether his addition will make the team and squad stronger.

It is of course all down to the player and whether he performs and from that point of view its impossible to say whether any player has been a success unless and until they've had time to prove it one way or another.

 

[Kraftwerker]

All that does is highlight the fact that there are numerous factors which affect a players value, in this case the fact that his wages are enormous and the major factor that he desperately wants out. If he wasnt desperate to go he'd be worth much more on the open market.

You could compare any two transfers but its compeltely futile - i.e. Is Ronaldo twice the player of Tevez? Probably not.

In terms of what Liverpool paid for Carroll if he goes onto to notch 15 - 20 goals a season for the next 10 years then I'm sure the club, the fans and the manager will be happy with the deal, rather than worrying about the money they could have saved.

Shit argument that could be applied to basically every single transfer ever made.

e.g. Robbie Keane was a great bit of business because if he'd been allowed to stay he'd have scored 20 goals a season for the next 5 years.

 

[RedRover]

Shit argument that could be applied to basically every single transfer ever made.
e.g. Robbie Keane was a great bit of business because if he'd been allowed to stay he'd have scored 20 goals a season for the next 5 years.

Precisely the point I was trying to make about your argument that you can compare player x to player y.

Put simply - what one player costs against another depends on a lot of factors, therefore comparing one transfer to another is very difficult if not impossible, regardless of the fees involved.

 

[Kraftwerker]

You miss the point I was trying to meake earlier in this thread.

It doesnt matter whether Dowing is a "top level player" - whatever that means. Clearly a club outside the top four will probably not be able to get those players because its pretty much all about the CL. Indeed, I'd be interested to hear suggestions about who people think would have been a better buy for a club which needed a left winger?

The question is whether he'll improve the team he's at and whether his addition will make the team and squad stronger.

It is of course all down to the player and whether he performs and from that point of view its impossible to say whether any player has been a success unless and until they've had time to prove it one way or another.

Well done captain obvious.

But you've basically spent this thread and every other saying how you think they're all good signings.

But if somebody disagrees you're quick to jump on the 'you can't judge them until you've seen what happens' wagon.

 

[RedRover]

You've used that logic before. It's absurd.

You could say that about every player ever signed by any manager "oh well, if he goes on to spend the next 10 years as one of the best players in the league in his positions then he'll be a great signing". No shit, sherlock.

On that basis, it's impossible for Dalglish (or any other manager) to make a bad signing. Not that you seem all that bothered about defending signings made by managers other than Kenny Dalglish.

Perhaps I'm talking in chinese?

What I'm driving at is that it is impossible to say whether any player has been a success within 5 minutes of him pitching up at his new club, or even before he's kicked a ball.

people may think a club have overpaid for a player and thats fine, but unless and until said player is given a chance to prove it one way or another then its impossible to say.

As I said on the Carroll thread when he signed for Liverpool, as with a lot of young players he's rough around he edges but has a lot of potential. whether they've overpaid wont effect whether or not he develops into a top player.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Precisely the point I was trying to make about your argument that you can compare player x to player y.

Put simply - what one player costs against another depends on a lot of factors, therefore comparing one transfer to another is very difficult if not impossible, regardless of the fees involved.

Disagree.

Players more often than not go for what they're worth, unless they're in the last year of their contract.

 

[RedRover]

Well done captain obvious.

But you've basically spent this thread and every other saying how you think they're all good signings.

But if somebody disagrees you're quick to jump on the 'you can't judge them until you've seen what happens' wagon.

Yes, which I think they are, based on past performaces and what I've seen, as I assume is everyone else, and specifically because I think they're probably signing realistic players to make an improvement on last year.

I think they're good players for a club trying to crack the top 4, and also think that if they do the job required the club wont care that they've overpaid.

I don't expect everyone to agree, and commented (as most people do on a message board) as to other people's opinions and why I agreed or disagreed with what they had said - in your case the reasoning that you can compare one player against another in terms of fees or what they would have cost in the past when it seems to be a bit more complicated than that.

Surely engaging in depate is the point of the site?

 

[RedRover]

Disagree.

Players more often than not go for what they're worth, unless they're in the last year of their contract.

Fair enough - I personally think its more comples: i.e: the wishes of the player and his family, wages, relative success of the clubs, stregth of squads - not to mention the involvement of agents.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Yes, which I think they are, based on past performaces and what I've seen, as I assume is everyone else, and specifically because I think they're probably signing realistic players to make an improvement on last year.

I think they're good players for a club trying to crack the top 4, and also think that if they do the job required the club wont care that they've overpaid.

I don't expect everyone to agree, and commented (as most people do on a message board) as to other people's opinions and why I agreed or disagreed with what they had said - in your case the reasoning that you can compare one player against another in terms of fees or what they would have cost in the past when it seems to be a bit more complicated than that.

Surely engaging in depate is the point of the site?

It seems you bend over backwards to tell us why they are good signings, but if someone says they aren't you say that we can't possibly say that because we haven't seen the future.

I'm just showing the hypocrisy.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Fair enough - I personally think its more comples: i.e: the wishes of the player and his family, wages, relative success of the clubs, stregth of squads - not to mention the involvement of agents.

Think of all the transfers that have been made in the last few years.

On the whole these factors don't play much of a role.

If a player is worth £20m it's not because of his family situation, or because the club buying him are successful, or because of his wages, it's because he's a £20m player.

Clubs don't tend to let their players go for under market value just because wifey wants to be near the beach.

 

[RedRover]

Think of all the transfers that have been made in the last few years.

On the whole these factors don't play much of a role.

If a player is worth £20m it's not because of his family situation, or because the club buying him are successful, or because of his wages, it's because he's a £20m player.

Clubs don't tend to let their players go for under market value just because wifey wants to be near the beach.

Perhaps not - but if a player is desperate to leave and only wants to go to one club that can tie a clubs hands. Sanchez at Udinese appears to be a good example - Barca seem to be in pole position while City would probably have bettered any offer Barca are willing to make.

The fact is clubs dont want to keep unhappy players for various reasons including the effect on the dressing room and that can strengthen a buying clubs hand, especially if the player has already agreed terms via his agent.

 

[RedRover]

It seems you bend over backwards to tell us why they are good signings, but if someone says they aren't you say that we can't possibly say that because we haven't seen the future.

I'm just showing the hypocrisy.

I dont see how I'm bending over backwards to do anything - simply voicing an opinion that based on what I've seen of said players I think they're better than what they've got and that in the context of the poor squad they had and realistic ambitions for the future, that they're decent signings. I'm not saying they're all world beaters.

The points about relative values and overpaying for players are general points I've made in other threads about how difficult it is to place a value on a player.

I'm not suggesting that people cant have an opinion, simply voicing may own in response to other people's posts - as you have done with mine.

 

[kouroux]

Downing is not a top level player, nor is he ever likely to become one. Lip-stick on a pig.

I'm getting flashbacks to the Robbie Keane transfer, and people saying what a great signing he was, good Prem quality player, guaranteed to get goals and assists, will be great alongside Torres (M&M), who cares about the fee etc.

 

[redman5]

I don't disagree with any of that. However, Dalglish has spent more than 100m since January, a large chunk of that on average players. For that kind of money I would expect more than a 10 point improvement!

If someone suggested 12 months ago that you lot would spend 55m on Downing and Carroll, what would you have said?

The 10 point remark was a point of relevance. For example: If Blackburn had spent massive amounts of money last season & increased their points tally by 10. They'd have gone from 15th to 8th = Basically a waste of money. However. Liverpool increasing their total by 10 for next season would possibly mean CL football & the lucrative cash that comes with it. Not to mention raising the profile of the club for potential world class signings. Therefore, in part anyway, the ends would begin to justify the means.

As for your 2nd point. I'd have been delighted to have seen us buy Carroll & Downing last season. For 2 reasons:

Firstly - After 3 consecutive transfer windows of negative net-spending it would have shown our owners were serious about investing into the playing staff. Especially after seeing the likes of City, & Spurs, to a lesser degree, spend heavily in their quest to break into the top 4.

Secondly - It would have allayed some of my fears after Hodgson had signed Poulsen, & shipped Alberto Acquilani off to Juventus. It would have shown he had plans for our lads to play a bit of football on the front foot rather than the defensive mode he had built his reputation on.

 

[Boss]

You're distorting the argument though - Downing, Carroll and Suarez don't fit anyone's definition of 'average'. 'Average' players don't become full England internationals, or shine for Uruguay at World Cups.

You also can't state in concrete, as you do, that 100m equals more than a 10 pt improvement. It depends which team you pour that money into, and what state they're in, as well as the activities of clubs around them.

With United and City spending as they are, you could just as easily argue you need to spend 100m just to stand still at the top of the PL.

I burst out laughing, kinnel.


Anyway Emile Heskey is an example, he's complete rubbish.

 

[BaldwinLegend]

I burst out laughing, kinnel.


Anyway Emile Heskey is an example, he's complete rubbish.

What, the guy who scored 40 goals for Liverpool and was singled out umpteen times by Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney as their preferred strike partner?

Yes, I'm sure you know better.

What's this idiotic thing where people think players picked for England can be rubbish? Never see it amongst England cricket or rugby followers, who at least show their players some respect. Or any other sport, for that matter - representing your country is normally seen as worthy of respect, not an invitation to throw abuse at someone.

'Average' professional English footballers are in League 2 and 3, not the Premier League. I just don't get how a supposedly informed fan could think that anyone who's come through all the hurdles involved to become a regular starter in the Premier League could be in anyway 'average'. You must be exceptional at whatever you do...

 

[Jiggs'Hamstring]

What Ferguson has proved time and time again is that if he identifies the right player, then he pays however it costs to acquire that player, United tax and all. All this obsessing over fees is stupid, and it's annoying when opposition fans do it so it's annoying now.

 

[Boss]

What, the guy who scored 40 goals for Liverpool and was singled out umpteen times by Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney as their preferred strike partner?

Yes, I'm sure you know better.

What's this idiotic thing where people think players picked for England can be rubbish? Never see it amongst England cricket or rugby followers, who at least show their players some respect.

'Average' professional English footballers are in League 2 and 3, not the Premier League. I just don't get how a supposedly informed fan could think that anyone who's come through all the hurdles involved to become a regular starter in the Premier League could be in anyway 'average'. You must be exceptional at whatever you do...

I do indeed, he was crap.

the anti-footballer, watching him at the world cup was depressing.

big lump upfront, 40 goals in around 150 apps for Liverpool 100 years ago doesn't impress me .

Owen and Rooney would prefer him as a striker partner as he makes them both look better than Pele.

I wouldn't mind playing alongside him aswell.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What, the guy who scored 40 goals for Liverpool and was singled out umpteen times by Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney as their preferred strike partner?

Yes, I'm sure you know better.

What's this idiotic thing where people think players picked for England can be rubbish? Never see it amongst England cricket or rugby followers, who at least show their players some respect. Or any other sport, for that matter - representing your country is normally seen as worthy of respect, not an invitation to throw abuse at someone.

'Average' professional English footballers are in League 2 and 3, not the Premier League. I just don't get how a supposedly informed fan could think that anyone who's come through all the hurdles involved to become a regular starter in the Premier League could be in anyway 'average'. You must be exceptional at whatever you do...

Your mention of the cricket and rugby team nicely makes the point about why English footballers are held in such low esteem. Compare and contrast the recent behaviour/achievements of these three English teams and you've got your answer right there.

 

[BaldwinLegend]

I do indeed, he was crap.

the anti-footballer, watching him at the world cup was depressing.

big lump upfront, 40 goals in around 150 apps for Liverpool 100 years ago doesn't impress me .

Owen and Rooney would prefer him as a striker partner as he makes them both look better than Pele.

I wouldn't mind playing alongside him aswell.

A strike rate for Liverpool of not far off 1 in 3, for his kind of striker, doesn't impress you?

Pointless arguing with you if you're going to be disingenuous - you know as well as I do that's not the reason Owen and Rooney preferred him as a partner.

I'm sure you'd make him look just as good as Pele though if you played alongside him...

 

[crappycraperson]

Your mention of the cricket and rugby team nicely makes the point about why English footballers are held in such low esteem. Compare and contrast the recent behaviour/achievements of these three English teams and you've got your answer right there.

Aye. England rugby team won the WC not so long ago and their test cricket team is second in the world right now.

A while ago people were dumbfounded when City bought Milner for 18m + Ireland, must say Downing transfer makes that look like an ok deal, even if Milner has not done anything at City yet.

 

[BaldwinLegend]

Your mention of the cricket and rugby team nicely makes the point about why English footballers are held in such low esteem. Compare and contrast the recent behaviour/achievements of these three English teams and you've got your answer right there.

That concerns their character though, and doesn't explain why fans lose all perspective when assessing players picked to represent their country.

The only similar sport I can think of is tennis, where Henman and Murray were regularly described as 'shit' whilst being the fourth best player in the world, and you'd struggle to argue that either Henman's or Murray's behaviour/achievements are such that they could be deemed as such.

 

[Boss]

A strike rate for Liverpool of not far off 1 in 3, for his kind of striker, doesn't impress you?

Pointless arguing with you if you're going to be disingenuous - you know as well as I do that's not the reason Owen and Rooney preferred him as a partner.

I'm sure you'd make him look just as good as Pele though if you played alongside him...

what's the reasons then?

because he's a big lump upfront with the footballing ability of a donut?

not far off 1 in 3?...right....

and you've never seen me play, I'm not as ridiculously Big as Heskey but I'm positive I've got more footballing ability.

Emile has blagged his way to having a footballing career and playing for England in countless tournaments, it's incredible.