It's because Ole is very cautious and risk averse, he doesn't want to try different things. The pressure is too much.
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I thought the way it worked was - you impress the manager in training to get game time and then, once you get your chance you make yourself un-droppable with your display. He hasn't really done that but there is still time. Some players take 2 seasons to come good
Based on the football that has been played the last year, that also seems to be the right call. Donny really had his worst games for us when he was used as a nr. 10.
VDB is very conservative in his approach so I do get why he isn't being played too far forward.
That being said, I think he could be useful somewhere in CM playing against teams that will press the shit out of us when we tend to struggle. He's very handy at retaining possession and moving the ball on.
That being said, I think he could be useful somewhere in CM playing against teams that will press the shit out of us when we tend to struggle. He's very handy at retaining possession and moving the ball on.
Exactly what I see there. He has the attributes our other CMs lack and a (coachable) tactical/positional discipline Pogba will never grow into which is required at CM.
He is no Bruno sub. He is nothing like Bruno who is quite literally "all over the place". If anything you compound Bruno's absence with him. Agree Lingard may well have been kept for that reason, although I'd expect Pogba to fill his shoes and Lingard to be the attacking incarnation of JOS. Not that he can chip a keeper like John.
He's very conservative because he doesn't get much chances, so he doesn't want to screw up, but he's probably not getting much chances because he's very conservative. You can see the difference between his first few appearances and the later ones. At this point it's never going to work because this way he isn't going to break the vicious cycle he's in.
AWB Varane Harry Shaw
McTomminay Fred
VdB Bruno
Greenwood Ronaldo
One of Ronaldo/Greenwood drifting wide when needed. A 4-2-2-2 but with only one Support Striker (Bruno) instead of two. VDB stays in the middle to receive passes from Fred and Scott at all times so they don't just hoof it forward and hope for the best, they also don't need to go out of their area uneccessarily so there will always be two workhorse ready to chase players. Can this work against teams where our two midfielders just can't cope with theirs? it's like we have an extra body there in midfield (VDB) without really losing wingers and Bruno can still make runs. We rarely switch the play anyway. As long as there's someone willing to drift wide when we're attacking that side it should be good.
McTomminay Fred
VdB Bruno
Greenwood Ronaldo
One of Ronaldo/Greenwood drifting wide when needed. A 4-2-2-2 but with only one Support Striker (Bruno) instead of two. VDB stays in the middle to receive passes from Fred and Scott at all times so they don't just hoof it forward and hope for the best, they also don't need to go out of their area uneccessarily so there will always be two workhorse ready to chase players. Can this work against teams where our two midfielders just can't cope with theirs? it's like we have an extra body there in midfield (VDB) without really losing wingers and Bruno can still make runs. We rarely switch the play anyway. As long as there's someone willing to drift wide when we're attacking that side it should be good.
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So we signed Sancho and Cristiano, passed on Trippier, and kept Lingard, on top of Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani and Martial... so we could play 4-2-2-2 and accommodate Donny.
Sure.
I mean it should only be given a consideration when we need that extra body in midfield. That Wolves game gave me trauma.
He may have played 1,500 minutes last season (not brilliant as it is), but 500 was on premier league matches.
Ole will surely need to give him far more gametime, and a consistent run at that. He has shown glimpses of promise for sure, but he can't play 2 games here, then not start for another 5 otherwise he is destined to fail.
Ole will surely need to give him far more gametime, and a consistent run at that. He has shown glimpses of promise for sure, but he can't play 2 games here, then not start for another 5 otherwise he is destined to fail.
I reckon most of the upside of what you suggest (transition) can be accomplished just having him as one of the pair. I sure hope we are coaching him in that direction.
The extra body you missed against Wolves wasn't one to be added to McFred, it was Fred + Pogba sucking at doing the basics required of any CM that doesn't have Claude Makelele next to him.
looks like he started next to Matic in the pivot today against Stoke.
I remember an AJAX FAN in this forum described Donny having limited quality on the ball e.g. passing range, creative passing, dribbling but he is intelligent and takes up good spaces on the pitch. I am not sure this is what we want in our CM position. Here is the initial post.
AjaxCunian
Full Member
Joined Mar 10, 2021Messages 885Supports Ajax & United
I wouldnt het him back for 20 million, we have Klaassen, Kudus, Gravenberch, Alvarez en Blind that can play there. I'd rather use it to buy a new keeper/Tagliafico replacement and maybe a second striker now that Brobbey is leaving.
AjaxCunian
Full Member
Joined Mar 10, 2021Messages 885Supports Ajax & United
Clever player, can finish, good overall technique, positional awareness. Not enough quality on the ball as in long range shooting, creative passing, dribbling.
I wouldnt het him back for 20 million, we have Klaassen, Kudus, Gravenberch, Alvarez en Blind that can play there. I'd rather use it to buy a new keeper/Tagliafico replacement and maybe a second striker now that Brobbey is leaving.
His passing range isn't limited, his preference for long range passes is limited. Because the only ones at Ajax who usually make long ranges passes are the centerbacks or the defensive midfielder. But VDB can make those passes, but prefers not to.
I never understand the aversion to safe passing. Look at what a Jorginho has achieved with it. Sometimes its great to have a midfielder who never loses the ball needlessly. Who is actually used to pass and move and give and go play. Who is an consistent asset off the ball in attacking phases
I have to agree. It's especially weird considering how much we throw the ball away with bad passes.
When did I say Raiola didn’t try to orchestrate moves for Pogba? I said both agents are gobshites. . . Stick to what’s written, this is your second tangent with no actual merit.
From ‘Ole likely did tell him’ sums you up lad, clueless. It’s 3 games into the season ffs!
Lingard finished the season on fire for West Ham, do we need ‘clarity’ on his situation? Don’t be so pompous, he didn’t make those comments to appease Van de Bank & the likes of RedCafe, myself included.
I’ve said both agents run their mouths & you’re telling me about Pogba wanting more money like it’s relevant.As if this situation has any impact on my sleep
This agent is protecting his client because he isn’t playing AT ALL.
Raiola is attempting to get Pogba a key player no less to move for more £££.
If you can’t see the difference then that’s a you problem.
So let’s do this. For arguments sake, Pogba is a money grabber & Raiola is a gobshite - how does make that make Albers any less of a mouthy agent? It doesn’t, which is why you’re subverting the discussion.
He’s held talks with the club & made those talks public, the fact that you don’t hear all agents disclosing the content of their discussions with clubs is the point.
I’m not OgSs biggest fan but if VdB were good enough he’d be playing, OgS isn’t in the position to cast players aside. If Albers is so driven to make these statements 3 games into a season he should have insisted on a move in the summer.
I told you to park the ‘negative’ nonsense cause it’s irrelevant.
We’re 3 games in & his agent is bleating. Had other players representation made these noises this place would be totally different.
He’s done nothing in a United shirt to warrant playing when others are fit. Move on.
Going to preface this post by saying i’m a huge Fred fan, and in the right system he is one our most important players.
With the signings we’ve made though and the last two performances in mind, I think our best formation is this, especially if we play 4-2-3-1.
—Scott-Donny—
Jadon-Bruno-Pogba
Ronaldo.
Mcsauce can shield the back 4, and Donny is a great player who can keep possession and link the midfield and attack. We were unable to keep meaningful possesion in both our last two games and I think Donny would fix that, he’s a great link-up player. He would have to refrain from his natural instincts to get into the box as much as he would like but I think this would work. I know this leaves out Mason, but I think Sancho will be great for Ronaldo. If we play 4-3-3 though then Donny doesn’t have a chance of playing and I think we will be worse off as a team for it.
With the signings we’ve made though and the last two performances in mind, I think our best formation is this, especially if we play 4-2-3-1.
—Scott-Donny—
Jadon-Bruno-Pogba
Ronaldo.
Mcsauce can shield the back 4, and Donny is a great player who can keep possession and link the midfield and attack. We were unable to keep meaningful possesion in both our last two games and I think Donny would fix that, he’s a great link-up player. He would have to refrain from his natural instincts to get into the box as much as he would like but I think this would work. I know this leaves out Mason, but I think Sancho will be great for Ronaldo. If we play 4-3-3 though then Donny doesn’t have a chance of playing and I think we will be worse off as a team for it.
Exactly, I keep telling people this.
Ajax's preference has always been controlled shorter passing and working your way up the pitch.
We saw in the match against Everton he's already trying harder to adapt to this, he hit a lovely long range cross field pass. It's just not natural to him to play like that, similarly to how it's not natural to Pogba to keep it moving quickly.
But how is Alan Smith relevant? We signed him aeons ago.
A good midfielder for Ajax doesn't mean half as much as you're making out. What do we take from that, does the Ajax seal of approval really mean that much? It means something in the Dutch league, I would wager. They have the biggest budgets and the best players and the best staff so I would say that they would be in a good position to say a player is a great player within the Dutch league. However, in the PL Donny van de Beek has to earn the Man Utd seal of approval and that's the problem.
Literally every manager in football tells their new signings they will play. You'd have to be "clueless" as you say, to think VDB would come to United after being told he'd warm the bench. Nobody argued that his performances in a United shirt warrant him playing. Stop straw manning people who know how to write in paragraphs. I didn't bother to read the rest of your unreadable mess/jizz on keyboard as your aggressive tone isn't appreciated.
They're right about your mental gymnastics.
Placing Raiola and Albers in the same category is ludicrous. Context is needed.
Yeah, indeed.
And that is actually part of what we need right now - given Ole's 4-2-3-1.
We simply haven't seen Donny much in this sort of setup, though - but in theory, a tidy player with some awareness of space doesn't sound too bad.
A tidy player with some awareness who can distribute the ball from midfield to attack (without being an absolute liability in terms of losing it frequently) also sounds pretty good.
Again - how well Donny can actually do this (for us) is another matter.
I believe he will get the chance this season. Especially since he has beefed up physically. I just hope he takes it and runs with it, Leon Goretzka at Bayern style
That would be fantastic.
I asked this earlier - but there is some reason to think that Ole actually regards him as a plausible alternative in a deeper (CM) role, yes?
I can't find the quote/interview in question - but I believe he said something along those lines.
Anyway - we won't bring in anyone else, so hopefully he'll get a proper chance (and hopefully he'll take it, as you say).
He hasn’t been given a real chance in all fairness. Never even had a run of two or three games in the first team with first team quality around him. Very few players in world football could turn it on enough in the tiny windows of opportunity he has been given to stand out...especially when he has only been given opportunities at the very ends of games or in weakened teams.
what mystifies me is that surely Donny had a chat with Ole prior to signing where Ole outlined the exact way Donny would fit in to the team!? I would say that conversation was around Donny being an understudy of sorts to Pogba in anticipation of him leaving. After all, Riola was talking rubbish on Pogba’s behalf around that time. If that’s the case then it’s Pogba’s stay at the club that has really made the signing of DVB completely pointless and his chances will remain limited.
An Ajax midfield youth product that shines for them domestically and at European level is as good a guarantee as you will get that certain key attributes are taken care of, attributes you can hardly coach into people (or talk them into) after a certain age.
Out of all our midfielders VDB is clearly the best bet to coach into what our midfield is lacking.
Hope he can get a run of games alongside Fred in McTominay's absence. Doubt it though.
Id like to see him and matic as a pair in some games. I think they'd work pretty well together. I hope to never see Matic + fred together ever again
IF we was forced to have him in the starting 11 which already contains Bruno and Pogba then the only position is as a number 6 in a double pivot with either Matic/Fred/McTominay alongside him. This would mean playing Pogba on the left wing, where I find him very productive, just not sure what happens once Rashford is back and Sancho gets fully going as one or maybe both would miss out with Greenwoods form. But what that does give us is incredible depth off the bench and rotational options.
I feel while VDB doesn't have the passing range, physicality and engine of Pogba, what he does give us more in the double pivot is the discipline, the movement to get into space and play quick 1 or 2 touch passes in the centre of the pitch. Pogba and Bruno can also double more centrally if needed to help control games better.
Sadly, I feel his confident is shot and not sure how or if he will recover from this. I truly hope he does as he could be a huge asset.
I feel while VDB doesn't have the passing range, physicality and engine of Pogba, what he does give us more in the double pivot is the discipline, the movement to get into space and play quick 1 or 2 touch passes in the centre of the pitch. Pogba and Bruno can also double more centrally if needed to help control games better.
Sadly, I feel his confident is shot and not sure how or if he will recover from this. I truly hope he does as he could be a huge asset.
It's a guarantee he was a good player for Ajax. We wouldn't have bought him if he looked a poor player for Ajax as that would be completely illogical, players are always bought because in somebody's opinion they look good for their current club.
I'm struggling to identify what the guarantee beyond that is because he has played in Dutch football and a tiny sample size of CL games. That seems closer to an unknown than a guarantee. Lukaku was close to a guarantee, DVB is a wait and see and the seeing hasn't looked especially good.
If you mean he came through the Ajax academy, then yes it guarantees he can trap a ball and pass it a bit, of course he has a certain level of technical acumen. It would be silly to say otherwise but that minimum standard of technical quality isn't the only prerequisite for a successful career with us.
Where to? Who offered to take him?
'Move on' is ironic, since I said I was done, yet you respond again. Also, you don't get to tell me (or anyone) anything; you're not a mod in here. If I were one though, I'd ask you to dial back the aggressive tone of your posts a bit. Also-also, we're three matches into this season, but surely you're not assuming Van de Beek is looking to move just based on that. And again, I have never said that he is good enough to play more.
His agent said he had offers from Italy, Germany and England.
Ah yeah.. Take the opinion of one Ajax fan and take that as truth that Donny isnt a good CM. That makes sense... Just browse through this entire forum and you will find only evidence of consensus about all United players amongst United fans...
Anyone know how the best midfielder in Europe did against Stoke today? (Going by this thread)
Yes, this.
In theory...and so forth.
But also - yes, why the feck not?
In the absence of any midfield signings - sure, yes, try the fecker.
The thing is that we have strengthened considerably at the back now. Varane/Maguire should be a very solid pairing - which should mean we need less of a rock solid defensive presence in the so-called double pivot.
Perhaps a clever (movement) and tidy (passing) player there is enough - not least if that player is adept at (simply) transitioning the ball effectively: as in, he doesn't need to be a great passer/playmaker.
The basic setup (a 4-2-3-1 variation) doesn't really require either a) a defensively rock solid DM or b) a playmaker.
If the front four works well enough:
Sancho (Greenwood) ---------- Bruno ---------- Pogba (Rashford)
Ronaldo (Cavani)
...we could get away with fielding a functional but not spectacular "pivot" behind. But that pair cannot a) get overrun easily and b) give the ball away for fun.Ronaldo (Cavani)
I am quite surprised by how many people are calling for him to get more games. Loads of people put him in their preferred line-ups.
I have nothing against him and god knows we have a paucity of technique in CM but based on his performances so far, I would never select him. Sometimes he has been worse than useless.
Best I am hoping for is that he shows enough in training to force his way into the team for some cup games or a CL dead rubber (if one comes along) and then actually has a good game. Good games = better prospect for selection. DVB good games so far = approx 0. Harsh but not far from the truth.
I have nothing against him and god knows we have a paucity of technique in CM but based on his performances so far, I would never select him. Sometimes he has been worse than useless.
Best I am hoping for is that he shows enough in training to force his way into the team for some cup games or a CL dead rubber (if one comes along) and then actually has a good game. Good games = better prospect for selection. DVB good games so far = approx 0. Harsh but not far from the truth.
Well said
Just shows how bad Fred is!
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