For Donny's own good, he should stay at Everton on a permanent deal. We've crumbled too many careers and turned players into toxic mercenaries.
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I think the reverse is also true. Some are, for some reason, really desperate to downplay a good game that he had. Not outstanding, but good.
Can we please stop using the term haters? ffs we arent all 14 year olds right? The world is not divided in haters and lovers..
Doubters. Is that better?
It's too early to draw conclusions still for him. He has so many games left to play this season. Early signs at Everton are very promising for sure
A reasonable post amongst the many. Donny needs games, a run of games and a good number of minutes under his belt. A promising start for sure and I have full belief that he will do well there. He is a tidy, technical player, pass and move. Good one Donny.
He's a rare player I like at Utd and I hope he finds success wherever he plays (hopefully at Utd in the future)
That's already better than Scott.
Again, so few games, hard to say much either way about him, can’t call him the worst of the lot if he never plays? I think De Jong has done well considering Busquets is playing in his best position every week, it was a bad fit for him moving to Barca. Similarly I don’t think Chelsea suits Ziyech, too many cooks spoil the broth with their attacking mids. De Ligt could have been better, yes.
Quite possibly yes, I dont see too much of that in this thread though after the leeds performance.
I think he played okay, hoping to see more from him as he settles. Posts saying this performance highlights the clubs scandalous treatment of him seem wierd..
Sure, but that bolded part is not the only ingredient for a midfielder though, especially in a league like the premier league.
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I like he did good but posts about taking a dump on supposed haters are embarrassing.
Loan to a Premier league club was the best possible solution. Has a chance to prove himself in the same league. Hopefully he does and then comes back next season and our new manager actually gives him a chance.
But it's what we need right now for our midfield.
We can't keep on playing games and treating like midfield doesn't exist, shit hasn't worked for over 3 years, it's not going to magically start working.
Agreed. But why was Donny not given a chance by his own club? If Pogba and Bruno been flying high all season one could easily understand why Donny would toil on the bench, but Pogba has been out most of the season and Bruno has been poor most of the season. We’ve heard about Donny being “shit in training” but surely that’s just mindless forum talk, or us there any evidence that Donny really is shit in training?
Then why has he not been given a chance?
Either our managers are all clueless, or there is a Utd conspiracy against Donny? Which is it?
There may be a third option we’re overlooking. I categorically rule out conspiracy theories.
We all thought that Donny was brought in to succeed Pogba, whom we were going to sell at the end of last season. But the pandemic nixed that. Ok, shit happens. But when Pogba was out for long spells last season and this season, Donny was lucky to get on in the 85th minute.
It’s an overstatement to suggest Ole was clueless, but he clearly needed to be sacked, and I held at the time should have not have had his contract extended. But let’s say he was clueless. Ralf fell in love with Fred and McTominay, who with the exception of one performance has been not been impressive.
I’d like to know the real truth as to why we spent 35m on a player two managers refused to play.
Perhaps he has deserved more of a chance, this season that would be fair to say. Last season he was terrible, pretty much a waste of an appearance despite attempts to rewrite that by exaggerating his performance in the couple of semi decent games he did have. After his cameo at Watford he had a poor performance in Europe then back to rare appearances.
I get frustrated by the unwillingness by some to lay any responsibility at the feet of Donny himself, too often he hasn't made a case.
The subtlety in all this may be that Ralf didn't fall in love with Fred and McTominay or think VDB is totally shit, but that actually he appraised the squad and thought they were the ones most suited to his footballing ideals. Then it would be less to do with VDB being shite in training (which is not a theory that is completely without merit but just as unprovable as this theory) but more to do with the qualities of the players and the league. I don't think he loves those players I think he's defaulted upon them.
He started off with this 4-2-2-2 idea and it's clear in that structure you need 2 midfielders that are extremely athletic, have stamina, can cover weaknesses in wide areas, can press. It's pretty natural to alight upon McFred in that structure. Now he's changed the formation but clearly hasn't changed his ideas.
I think Ole is a different case because Ole bought the player and should have had some coherency about his ideas. Whereas to me RR has no horse in this particular race, there is no pressure to do anything except what he thinks is suitable and therefore the conspiratorial ideas, the questioning his competency, they are all far less likely explanations than simply he doesn't like his qualities. Which I guess one way or the other will be proven right or wrong depending on VDBs PL performances.
The "real truth" may be that boring as concerns RR. With Ole it's a lot harder to explain.
I could accept that as the best possible theory, but Ralf never gave Donny a chance to prove whether he was up to the job. If Fred and McTominay blew everyone’s socks off, no complaints. But they really didn’t. Complaints are in order.
As for Ole, you could almost see his belief in Donny as a super sub, as he was himself. But he kept bringing him on too late in matches to be able to make any kind of impact. On the few occasions Donny got the start, he looked quite decent.
He didn't, but that would be explainable if he just does not rate him within his setup. To me that's the most likely scenario of all, Ralf does not rate him, Ole didn't rate him (and deserves some criticism as he bought him). It's a very simple theory therefore likely. No need for crazy speculation that way.
This idea that because we are not getting results means that you just flick through all your available options is often not the way a manager works. It might be but it depends on what he thinks the problems are.
They can be stubborn, they can have very defined ideas of how they're going to achieve something. That's often what fans do, that a loss or bad run equals we must change something around in midfield because switching a player is a simplistic analysis but he might not even be of the same opinion that McFred are causing the failings. Even if he thinks they are problematic, if he reasons that VDB offers nothing advantageous then why is he going to swap it just because VDB is a body that's there? He might think that persisting with his ideas will come to some sort of fruition, that could be just as valid.
Ultimately we will see how VDB does over a period, every time he finds a pass for Everton people will be up in arms but we need to actually see how it goes. Between now and the end of the season will tell a lot about Ralfs judgment on this. I can't say that he's definitely right or wrong and I find it strange that people can be so adamant that he is wrong as if VDB is this mistreated magician.
I'm intrigued by how you're thinking this through. But help me understand your thinking a bit more clearly, as I am a bit confused as to what Ralf might have been thinking.
Ralf was brought as interim manager to clean up a mess. He was given a squad he himself would likely not have assembled. I suspect we're both in agreement that Ralf found more of a mess than he suspected in terms of the cliques and leaks, but there are some workhorses in the squad such as Fred and McTominay who on some level would have been ideal pressing players. They are in fact hard workers who just don't go off the manager's script.
But those two hard workers -- Fred and McTominay -- are not gifted passers of a football. They are both clumsy with the ball and, apart from McTominay's ability to smash a shot from 25 yards, completely ineffective in the final third both with the ball and without the ball.
Would it not have been reasonable to at least give Donny a proper chance while fielding one of Fred or McTominay until Pogba came back? Maybe we would have learned that Donny really is shit but at least he would have been given the chance to prove that he's not shit. Donny doesn't have the physical strength of Fred or McTominay, who can do the dirty work (not brilliantly, but that's they what they do) but it's clear as day Donny is a superior passer and creator of chances in the final third. How could Ralf not see this?
But this is what I mean that your way of thinking and the managers probably don't align. You believe that a big problem we have is that our midfield lacks passing ability and something in the final third. You're probably right (not withstanding the fact Fred's output has been surprising under Ralf)
But actually when you look at what the manager is saying in press conferences, and he strikes me as pretty straight forward, perhaps overly so, he was worried by our structure, our ability to recover, keeping clean sheets. He hasn't been beating the drum about creative players or possession. He has mentioned keeping the ball better, yes, but in a general sense. So maybe in this context it explains why he doesn't think trading off McFred's qualities for what VDB can bring in passing is worth it. He may also think we have enough in the team in that department, which at least some of the performances have shown may be the case if we hadn't wasted chances.
Also, your theory only works if VDB is actually as good at passing as you think he is, which is largely unproven. I personally think Fred is quite an instrumental player on the ball. So while you can say "well why don't we give him a chance to show it", it's also the case that Ralf has a few more data points than we do.
In my humble opinion when Ralf joined there was already an agreement between Donny an the club that he'll leave in winter. I've read every page in this thread and I don't see any other credible explanation.
It still doesn't explain why he was never given a chance under Ole, and it'll be very interesting to hear van de Beek comments on that once he leaves in the summer.
It still doesn't explain why he was never given a chance under Ole, and it'll be very interesting to hear van de Beek comments on that once he leaves in the summer.
Will we really learn that much in this scenario?
If Donny van de Beek says Ole froze him out completely and Ralf never gave him a chance (although at least he sent him on loan which is doing him some favour) that's kind of obvious, but he's not going to say anything that paints himself in a bad light. Is he really going to say "yeah I couldn't hack it, I wasn't good enough to get picked" if that is the truth?
If somebody then gets hold of Ole then I'm sure he'd have a different take as well, but again if Ole botched it and lost the player he's probably not going to say that either considering it's a source of potential embarrassment after spending 35 million pounds.
Going to be pretty tough to get an objective view. Best case scenario he plays well at Everton and somehow has a future here!
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I thank you
The theory posit by Borys, that by the time Ralf came to OT there was already an agreement to loan out Donny, makes Ralf’s refusal to play him understandable. Not sensible, but understandable.
Ralf still could have given Donny a game to see what’s he’s all about, and if he put in an impressive performance, the loan could be off. But here we are now.
Due to having to maintain a deep line to play to Maguire's and De Gea's strengths ( or accommodate their weaknesses), whilst simultaneously having a set of attacking players who tend to stay up, and an attacking midfielder who plays more as a second striker than a third midfielder, and is an absolute vaccum of possession, the midfield 2 have to overcome sate for 2 different systemic weaknesses in the team :
- Massive gap between defense and attack
- Pressing, and overall distance covered disadvantage.
Ronaldo has not created the systematic issues, but he's the absolute worst thing that could have been added upon consideration.
Despite all the criticism aimed at them, Fred and Mctominay are both brilliant at closing space down and covering every blade of grass, and they are also both very capable of vertically carrying the ball, Mctominay more so, who is also press resistant and you see opposing midfielders happy to drop off him and close off the center rather than attempt a tackle and either get bypassed or give away a foul.
I genuinely think both are good players exposed in a bad system. The criticism to them often being out of position is lazy, they are always out of position because they have too many positions to cover.
Either of them would be great with a capable central midfielder next to them, preferably a passer, and their performances would see an improvement if they just didn't have to run for the whole team.
Edit: thought VDB could be either one's partner, but
-in the current setup, he doesn't offer as much in terms of workmen like qualities
-Not sure if he has much of a passing range, which would be an added limitation to his game, and he seems to have a few
An agreement with Everton or the player?
It would only make sense in the former case, surely. If we have a contractual obligation then obviously you have to adhere to it, but that seems bonkers so far outside a transfer window.
If it's an agreement with a player then that makes no sense because a new manager has the opportunity to set an agenda with the player. VDB could have had the shittest experience in the world so far but if the new manager calls him in and says he sees him as important then I believe he'd still at at Man Utd, not seeking a loan to a relegation hovering outfit.
So I find this theory a bit dubious but it is of course within the realms of possibility.
Yes I doubt it will be possible to get an objective view. If I was treated like van de Beek I would be furious and wouldn't bother saying any nice things about my past employer.
On the bolded bit, I doubt anybody believes this "he's bad at training" bs, Donny had some decent games what didn't result in getting more playing time - and performances is what we should care about. Plus, he's clearly on another level in terms of technical skills to Fred and McTominay, so I don't know how this training criticism can stand (unless he was really not bothered running!).
Ole side of the story would also be interesting but I think it's highly unlikely he'll ever say anything other than auto-generated comments.
If (and that's a big if) van de Beek turns out to be a decent EPL midfielder we will look like massive fools again. And I certainly think this is very likely as I always saw a good midfielder in him.
This whole episode seems bonkers to me. We spent 35m on transfer fee plus I think 100k/week for a player we basically never played. It's one thing to spend 40m total I think on two young players (Amad and Pellistri) we could possibly develop, but spending what we have on Donny and letting him rot as we have is bonkers.
But it may well be the case that by the time Ralf came to OT that there was an understanding between Donny and club management that he was to go out on loan starting January and not to be risked on the pitch before that. Ralf being an interim manager and having much bigger problems to sort out first, it does make some sense that he would have agreed to this arrangement and not give Donny any kind of chance whatsoever.
Rio Ferdinand in the FIVE podcast (according to Voetbal International) said that he spoke to people at Everton who were very impressed and said he immediately lifted the level up during trainings, and that they do not understand at all why he didnt play at United. "Wauw, if he is that good, then they must be insanely good at United if he cant get a place there."
Frank Lampard is absolutely raving out Donny... Seems to expect a lot from him.. Very curious about his performances the rest of the season..
What's a "wauw"?
I remember Kagawa having a similar video after United lost to Olympiakos in 2013-2014. I remember the video took particular umbrage at Ashley Young's crossing ability which was shite at the time to be fair 
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.Still reserving judgement on him. I know the VdB fanboys are in full flow here atm, but I'm happy to wait till the end of the season to see how he does. A good game or two and a positive comment by a manager doesn't really mean much.
Everton have also been exceptionally shit this season, so it's also possible his level is good enough for bottom half of the PL. He's replacing Andre Gomes I guess?Personally think McFred are better than the guy.
Everton have also been exceptionally shit this season, so it's also possible his level is good enough for bottom half of the PL. He's replacing Andre Gomes I guess?Personally think McFred are better than the guy.
Still think he deserved a consistent run of games rather than one here and there and a few sub cameos, time will tell.
To be fair Everton are about 19th so I'm surprised they didn't accuse him of witchcraft and burn him at the stake once they saw a half decent bit of ball control.
He's stepped into Doucoure's midfield spot because he's injured. Allen is the true 6/holding midfield. Once Doucoure gets his fitness back, which probably won't be until end of Feb or early March, it'll be interesting to see how Lampard plays those 3 and tries to include Dele.
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