Television Doctor Who

We already know a lot of what he did back in that time. Sealed them all (including his daughter/granddaughter) in that void thing. Killed a lot of bad guys. Turned into Badass Eccleston Doctor before Rose softened him. Probably lots that's been hinted at but I have no memory or will power to look it up....



Something, something, shadow proclamation!

What actually happened with that in the end? Did it get explained?...I seem to remember the Doctor finding pieces of the tardis but I cant remember how it was all explained. Having a total mind blank here :lol:

They. Err. Re-blew it up? Which fixed it? Like a big bang? I think?
 
They. Err. Re-blew it up? Which fixed it? Like a big bang? I think?

:lol:

I genuinely can't remember what happened at all with that story at all! I remember them setting it up, and the doctor finding pieces of blown up TARDIS...but I cant for the life of me remember how it played out.

As for tonights episode...

So basically, what they're saying is that John Hurt was the doctor between the end of the original series, and then the re-boot with Eccelston?..and in that time he did loads of really bad things and killed people?...But I thought the Doctor was all one person but who just got regenrated when 'killed' but was still effectively the same person, with the same mind?...So how could he suddenly turn 'bad' then get forgotten, and carry on as normal after his next re-genration?...I'm so confused.
 
The progression from Eccleston to Tennant and finally to Smith was meant to mirror the change in attitude of the doctor. He starts off extremely serious and slightly warrior like, but Rose changes and softens him to care again. By the 11th doctor (which we now know is the 12th doctor) he is carefree and slightly childlike and capable of getting married.

He has talked about doing lots of bad things during the time war. From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_War_(Doctor_Who)

The war resulted in countless millions dying endless deaths, as time travel was used by both sides to reverse battles that caused massive fatalities on both sides.[7] These excesses of time warfare eventually led to the whole of the conflict becoming "time-locked", so that no time traveller could go back into it.[8] The Doctor described the final days of the war as "hell", with "the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-Weres" constituting particularly disturbing developments.

As the war progressed the Time Lords became increasingly aggressive and unscrupulous. At one point, they resurrected the Master, renegade Time Lord and nemesis to the Doctor, as they believed him to be the "perfect warrior for a time war". It's implied that they gave him a full new set of regenerations as was done to all Time Lords fighting in the war, and that the Eye of Harmony could be used as a means to gain more regenerations. However, after the Dalek Emperor gained control of the Cruciform, the Master deserted his post, used the chameleon arch to disguise himself as a human and escaped to a time period shortly before the end of the universe. Genetically a human, he escaped the destruction of all Time Lords as well as detection by the Doctor – who was unaware of his resurrection in the first place. The Master also remained ignorant of the latter phase and outcome of the war until told by the Doctor many years later.[9]...

blah blah blah...

The Time War concluded with the mutual destruction of both belligerents and their respective planets. The Dalek fleet—reportedly ten million ships—was destroyed by the Doctor.[1] Gallifrey is first described as having "burned" like Earth of the far future, and is "rocks and dust" as a result of the war,[11] but then the Doctor admits that Time Lords and Daleks both burned together[1] and that he personally ended the war, in an act which caused the Time Lords, the Daleks and Gallifrey to burn.[9] The Doctor was, therefore, responsible for destroying his home planet.[9] He is called "the killer of his own kind" by the beast of the Pit.[12]

The specifics and what prompted the Doctor to such drastic measures were ultimately revealed in The End of Time (2009): The Doctor had discovered a way to end the war, described as "the Moment", when he became aware of Rassilon's "Ultimate Sanction".[7] It remains unclear whether "the Moment" would always have resulted in the destruction of both antagonists together or whether the Doctor could have simply used it to destroy the Daleks and chose to destroy the Time Lords as well to prevent Rassilon's scheme. The Ninth Doctor apparently faced a similar situation in The Parting of the Ways when he creates a Delta Wave to destroy the Daleks. When the wave was charged, The Doctor realised that it would not distinguish between Human and Dalek. Firing the Delta Wave would have resulted in the mutual destruction of both the Daleks and Humans (similar to the situation he faced at "the Moment").
The specifics and what prompted the Doctor to such drastic measures were ultimately revealed in The End of Time (2009): The Doctor had discovered a way to end the war, described as "the Moment", when he became aware of Rassilon's "Ultimate Sanction".[7] It remains unclear whether "the Moment" would always have resulted in the destruction of both antagonists together or whether the Doctor could have simply used it to destroy the Daleks and chose to destroy the Time Lords as well to prevent Rassilon's scheme. The Ninth Doctor apparently faced a similar situation in The Parting of the Ways when he creates a Delta Wave to destroy the Daleks. When the wave was charged, The Doctor realised that it would not distinguish between Human and Dalek. Firing the Delta Wave would have resulted in the mutual destruction of both the Daleks and Humans (similar to the situation he faced at "the Moment").

By this point, the entire period of war had become "time locked", so that no time traveller could enter or exit it.[6][7] In knowledge of this and the threat posed by the Doctor's possession of "the Moment," Rassilon and his fellow councillors tried to escape the Lock by retroactively planting a four note drumbeat (the rhythm of a Time Lord's heartbeats) into the Master's brain when he was a child (the sound of which eventually drove the Master insane) and use a Whitepoint Star, a diamond only found on Gallifrey,[7] to create a link between the final day of the Time War and Earth in 2010. The Master could therefore bring Gallifrey and the Time Lords out of the Time Lock and into the present, which he did after increasing the signal by turning nearly all humanity into copies of himself. The plan ultimately failed, as the Doctor destroyed the diamond link and the Master apparently sacrificed his life to prevent Rassilon killing the Doctor, sending the Time Lords back to their apparent doom.[7]

What I reckon they are going to say is that this John Hurt fellow isnt the "9th doctor" because he chose to forgo the name, and thus allowing current naming convention to continue.
 
The Doctor said that 'The Doctor' isn't a name, rather a self-imposed calling. So the 9th doctor would have chosen to forgo the Doctors ideology, rather than name perse.
 
Also, surely this will affect the amount of re-generations that are left even though he wasnt called a 'Doctor' he still had to re-generate into that form, before re-generating into Eccleston's Doctor. So how many do they have left now? If Smith is now the 12th 'Doctor' there's only 1 re-generation left, right?

Spoilered just incase
 
The 13 regenerations rule has been discarded from cannon. It was entered into cannon through a throw away line decades ago and in an episode of Sarah Jane Smith adventures, when asked how many regenerations the doctor has, he replied with a number in the hundreds (can't remember what number exactly).

So yeah, that doesn't matter now.
 
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Never thought of it that way.
 
The 13 regenerations rule has been discarded from cannon. It was entered into cannon through a throw away line decades ago and in an episode of Sarah Jane Smith adventures, when asked how many regenerations the doctor has, he replied with a number in the hundreds (can't remember what number exactly).

So yeah, that doesn't matter now.

It is an EP called Death of the Doctor, for something so important to the Doctor storyline, it needed more but just did not happen.
 
Enjoyed the episode, even though I'm really confused about the ending.

Clara was good. I think that's the end of River Song. I still have no clue who the GII are.

Would've been nice if we actually got to hear his real name.




So...
if he's the 9th Doctor and he's the one who killed them all, the secret is he does something bad in that time (kills them all?) that isn't part of his good guy demeanour (broke the promise?), therefore he (John Hurt) must be forgotten and that's the doctor's secret?

I think you are spot on with your spoilers.
Glad they saved the best to last, the series has not been the best, but this one was excellent.
I was hoping we would get to know his name too.
Hope the 50th anniversary EP , lives but to its build up.
 
I wonder who the Doctor will be fighting against in the 50th episode then. There are so many loose ends that they need to clear up, I hope they get round to it.

Do we reckon that's the end of the GI? It seemed a bit of an easy way for such a big (and powerful/near unbeatable) force to end itself. Who's this Omega chap which I've seen people mention? If he's from the old Who's I won't know a thing about him.

I want to see an explaination for the Silence.
 
I wonder who the Doctor will be fighting against in the 50th episode then. There are so many loose ends that they need to clear up, I hope they get round to it.

Do we reckon that's the end of the GI? It seemed a bit of an easy way for such a big (and powerful/near unbeatable) force to end itself. Who's this Omega chap which I've seen people mention? If he's from the old Who's I won't know a thing about him.

I want to see an explanation for the Silence.

Not that hard, Clara went in to the Dr's time stream rewrote the GI out, just like they wanted to do with the Doctor.
Its the second time they have used the girls saves the Doctor story, Donna did the same in an EP called Right Turn.
 
Getting basic for a minute - shouldn't River have a child, who also has a child, namely Susan?
 
If the Doctor saves Clara does that mean there will only be one Clara through time or the others will stay?

I wish they'd make it less confusing rather than have 50 different meanings in one sometimes!
 
Matt Smith hasn't left, and he's not awful. I'd say he's probably the best Doctor of all time. He's the one who most acts like a thousand year old time-traveler.

Since Eccleston, the subsequent Doctors have gradually been getting worse. Eccleston had presence. Smith's got the presence of a wet kipper.

Tom Baker was arguably the best.

In the old series of Doctor Who, it was the declining quality of actors playing the Doctor which led to its demise. Peter Davison and Sylvester McCoy where badly cast and acted like clowns - which is exactly how Smith is beginning to act. Unless the producers get a Doctor with real presence I can see the death of this regeneration of Doctor Who.
 
Since Eccleston, the subsequent Doctors have gradually been getting worse. Eccleston had presence. Smith's got the presence of a wet kipper.

Tom Baker was arguably the best.

In the old series of Doctor Who, it was the declining quality of actors playing the Doctor which led to its demise. Peter Davison and Sylvester McCoy where badly cast and acted like clowns - which is exactly how Smith is beginning to act. Unless the producers get a Doctor with real presence I can see the death of this regeneration of the Doctor Who.

I have to disagree with you here, Eccleston was good , would like to of seen him do more but then we might not of seen Tennant play the Doctor,who for me is the best Doctor ever, Matt Smith gets a lot of stick for his Doctor, I don't know why, for me second only to Tennant, he has suffered with some dreadful scripts.
 
I hope this stuff with John Hurt is properly explained and doesn't leave everyone confused. It could be interesting learning about a bad Doctor and his general past, but I'd rather they explained that over a few episodes instead of stuffing it all in the 50th special.

If the Doctor saves Clara does that mean there will only be one Clara through time or the others will stay?

I wish they'd make it less confusing rather than have 50 different meanings in one sometimes!

I think there is only 1 Clara now.

Her job was to 'save' the Doctor and make sure all the things the GII re-wrote from the Doctor's past were put back to normal. Once she did that and the Doctor was saved and we get to the present, I think that's when she landed and said something like 'The Doctor is safe. I'm the impossible girl & my story is done'. The Doctor then rescues her and, as he's been saved, I think there's only 1 Clara. I may have got that completely wrong though!

What I don't understand is, if she's been calling out to the Doctor throughout his past to save him, why is it that Dalek and Victorian Clara have no idea who he is when they first meet him?
 
I hope this stuff with John Hurt is properly explained and doesn't leave everyone confused. It could be interesting learning about a bad Doctor and his general past, but I'd rather they explained that over a few episodes instead of stuffing it all in the 50th special.



I think there is only 1 Clara now.

Her job was to 'save' the Doctor and make sure all the things the GII re-wrote from the Doctor's past were put back to normal. Once she did that and the Doctor was saved and we get to the present, I think that's when she landed and said something like 'The Doctor is safe. I'm the impossible girl & my story is done'. The Doctor then rescues her and, as he's been saved, I think there's only 1 Clara. I may have got that completely wrong though!

What I don't understand is, if she's been calling out to the Doctor throughout his past to save him, why is it that Dalek and Victorian Clara have no idea who he is when they first meet him?

Clara going into the light is her present, all the other things are her future, there are still hundreds of Clara's but they are all in other times and have all died at some point.

Maybe victoria Clara and Dalek Clara know who he is but know that as he hasn't met the Clara pre doctors grave yet they don't want to tell him.


Reminds me a bit of lost

Whatever happens happens

n2ia7s.jpg
 
Enjoyed the episode, even though I'm really confused about the ending.

Clara was good. I think that's the end of River Song. I still have no clue who the GII are.

Would've been nice if we actually got to hear his real name.

They'll only do that when the show's at the end for good. Or end it just before he says his name. Show's been around far too long for a showrunner to tempt facing the wrath of fans.
 
Clara going into the light is her present, all the other things are her future, there are still hundreds of Clara's but they are all in other times and have all died at some point.

Maybe victoria Clara and Dalek Clara know who he is but know that as he hasn't met the Clara pre doctors grave yet they don't want to tell him.


Reminds me a bit of lost

Whatever happens happens

n2ia7s.jpg

But if she is saved from the light she is in, she won't need to keep coming back to life to save the doctor, as the time when she was destroyed into a million different Clara's would be no more, as she is outside of the light that was to save the doctor?

That makes hardly any sense reading it but that was my understanding. That you'd only be a million different people if you stepped into the light, and once Clara is saved and out of the light again, the present Clara will be the only one.
 
There was only one real Clara, the rest were faint copies of Clara created by the light.

If you think of it in the same way as Plato's cave, Clara is the form, the light is the Demiurge and all the other Claras are copies unaware that they don't really exist properly.
 
Is The Doctor's name of any importance any more?

Seems to me it was only important to the GI who wanted it in order to open the tomb.

Now that's done, it doesn't matter what his name is anymore. His big secret isn't his name, his big secret is his former incarnation that didn't act in the name of The Doctor.
 
There was only one real Clara, the rest were faint copies of Clara created by the light.

If you think of it in the same way as Plato's cave, Clara is the form, the light is the Demiurge and all the other Claras are copies unaware that they don't really exist properly.

Didn't she say she was born and grew each time? So what does that mean about her mum and dad? Are they copies too?
 
Didn't she say she was born and grew each time? So what does that mean about her mum and dad? Are they copies too?
That wasn't explained particularly well. You could either interpret it as she was born to people already existing within those time periods - which is weird. Or you could interpret it as her parents being copies too, which creates an infinite regression paradox - which is also weird.

Personally I interpret as her previous lives weren't real, just that all the copies were created with a back-story deep enough to convince them they were real.
 
Cheers for clearing that up. Hopefully in the 50th it will be explained a bit more thorough.
 
The girl should've died.

In fact, come to think of it, there were two girls who should've died.

Moffat has a really rubbish tendency of using death for dramatic effect when he has no intention of following through on it. It becomes cheaper every time.

Basically, more people should die in these things. Especially children.
 
In fact, come to think of it, there were two girls who should've died.

Moffat has a really rubbish tendency of using death for dramatic effect when he has no intention of following through on it. It becomes cheaper every time.

Basically, more people should die in these things. Especially children.
While Clara should either have died, or had a better explanation than sacrificing herself, which other girl should have died? If you mean the Victorian Lesbian, then no, it's like back to the future where he has to make sure something happens.
 
Yes, Victorian lesbian. She died twice in the episode. The first time the potato man re-starts her heart. As you do. She was dead for all of 5 minutes. Really tugged on my heart strings that.

Then you've got the fact the Doctor died in the last season (but didn't) the season before it (but didn't - cos he got "remembered back into existence" - ARARGGHH!!) and technically this one (either before Clara saves him, or by jumping into his wound thing) Amy died in the one at Stonehenge (but didn't). Her fella died several times during that same arc (but didn't) and River Song died in her very first appearance (but then actually didn't)

Now, I've no huge problem with not killing all your main characters in an early evening family show (though I'm quite for it tbf) but I do think it's cheap and cheaty to do it, then cop out on it, entirely for dramatic effect, so often. He's even done it in Sherlock. I think it's some kind of obsessive compulsive thing.

And I like Moffat a lot as a writer.
 
Unless the producers get a Doctor with real presence I can see the death of this regeneration of Doctor Who.

So is it true the next doctor will be played by John Hurt?

If so, it doesn't get much more 'presence' than that.
 
Yes, Victorian lesbian. She died twice in the episode. The first time the potato man re-starts her heart. As you do. She was dead for all of 5 minutes. Really tugged on my heart strings that.

Then you've got the fact the Doctor died in the last season (but didn't) the season before it (but didn't - cos he got "remembered back into existence" - ARARGGHH!!) and technically this one (either before Clara saves him, or by jumping into his wound thing) Amy died in the one at Stonehenge (but didn't). Her fella died several times during that same arc (but didn't) and River Song died in her very first appearance (but then actually didn't)

Now, I've no huge problem with not killing all your main characters in an early evening family show (though I'm quite for it tbf) but I do think it's cheap and cheaty to do it, then cop out on it, entirely for dramatic effect, so often. He's even done it in Sherlock. I think it's some kind of obsessive compulsive thing.

And I like Moffat a lot as a writer.
There is a precedent for the Sontaran saving peoples lives, as they have been presented to us as an advanced warring race with incredible medical capabilities, so it does make sense that he can revive her. I agree with your general point though, the show would be better if Moffat used different devices for drama.

So is it true the next doctor will be played by John Hurt?

If so, it doesn't get much more 'presence' than that.
We don't know how long John Hurt will be part of the show. David Tennant is returning for the 50th anniversary though, so I'm almost certain this is just to pay homage to Doctor Who history in that episode.
 
If they go back to having an older doctor, they'll need to bring in a younger male assistant - back to the old format.

Can't see it myself.
 
Making a fairly straight forward series would be worth while. They need to accept that every season something ridiculously sensational and difficult to explain can't happen. This is my main problem with the new series.

It has so much potential given the nature of the show but they are pissing it away. Rather than having some stupid arc leading up to the final just do stand alone well written individuals.