Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances

[Scoreboard Red]

I've explained some of the mitigating factors that explain why he hasn't been as successful in the CL for utd as he has been in the league.

That's mitigating evidence as far as I'm concerned, I know all that what you're saying mate, it's blindingly obvious to all we play better in a standard 4-4-2 or a formation with two upfront as per the Marseille game.
It seems it's just a big excuse, we needed Berbatov apparently to bring something extra, what? The excuse was we don't play out best formation with him in the side, so that's damning for me; he's not good enough to be in our team.
For that money, you want that player in your team but we play best without him in it, how much more simple can I put it?
We've tried for the last couple of seasons to mixed results to play the 4-5-1 formation which works wonders v Arsenal but against Barcelona, we stupidly tried to use this containing system to pass, defend and break against the very team who are the best exponents of this system in the world. We should play our natural attacking game which we have been known for twenty years with Sharpe, Giggs, Kanchelskis etc attacking quickly and ruthlessly, not the puff-puff-give bollocks.
Yes, we play best without Berbatov and that's why he's not a fit for Man United...

 

[kietotheworld]

OK it doesn't count then, so let's write Berbatov's hat-trick versus Birmingham off because they're quite lowly or his five goals against Blackburn because it's irrelevant, this is the logic I'm hearing...
We've played far worse teams and we've not had many hat-tricks in Europe over many years, count them, there's not many...

We've had even less hat-tricks against Liverpool over many years, but using individual games to prove a player is better is not reliable. I don't think you actually believe Owen is a better player than Berbatov today.

 

[MrK]

OK it doesn't count then, so let's write Berbatov's hat-trick versus Birmingham off because they're quite lowly or his five goals against Blackburn because it's irrelevant, this is the logic I'm hearing...
We've played far worse teams and we've not had many hat-tricks in Europe over many years, count them, there's not many...

No, that's your logic. All he's said is that Owen's hat trick was against a team who weren't the German champion standard you'd implied, not that the hat trick never happened.

 

[Scoreboard Red]

No, that's your logic. All he's said is that Owen's hat trick was against a team who weren't the German champion standard you'd implied, not that the hat trick never happened.

Nah mate, this is what's being implied, that it shouldn't count - of course it counts, just as all hat-tricks versus whoever count, the quality of the opposition is irrelevant, hat-tricks are rare against any team...

 

[Scoreboard Red]

We've had even less hat-tricks against Liverpool over many years, but using individual games to prove a player is better is not reliable. I don't think you actually believe Owen is a better player than Berbatov today.

I think he's a better striker, a better finisher anyway and in all honestly, given a last minute penalty against Chelsea in the CL game, I'd rather Owen take it than Berbatov, easily.

In terms of trickery, then Berbatov but his little pirouettes are few and far between.

He can trap a ball better than pretty much anyone I've ever seen, and that includes Cantona, but it's what Eric did with the ball after he'd controlled it that mattered, not just so you can go watch it in a youtube video afterwards in a compilation with Fallout Boy as the soundtrack.

Berbatov's goal versus Blackpool (the winner) was the first time I've seen him run at a defender and take him on to score a goal like that, the majority of his goals have been in the box from a pass or a cross.

 

[evra]

That's mitigating evidence as far as I'm concerned, I know all that what you're saying mate, it's blindingly obvious to all we play better in a standard 4-4-2 or a formation with two upfront as per the Marseille game.
It seems it's just a big excuse, we needed Berbatov apparently to bring something extra, what? The excuse was we don't play out best formation with him in the side, so that's damning for me; he's not good enough to be in our team.
For that money, you want that player in your team but we play best without him in it, how much more simple can I put it?
We've tried for the last couple of seasons to mixed results to play the 4-5-1 formation which works wonders v Arsenal but against Barcelona, we stupidly tried to use this containing system to pass, defend and break against the very team who are the best exponents of this system in the world. We should play our natural attacking game which we have been known for twenty years with Sharpe, Giggs, Kanchelskis etc attacking quickly and ruthlessly, not the puff-puff-give bollocks.
Yes, we play best without Berbatov and that's why he's not a fit for Man United...

No I'm saying we don't have the central midfielders capable of winning the midfield battle in a 442 against good opposition. Because we don't have a Keane/Scholes partnership it's not possible to play against the best teams in Europe with a Carrick/Fletcher midfield, we get dominated and there is no service to our strikers. How can you expect a striker to perform if he gets no service? It's not like he's missing tonnes of chances, they just aren't being created for him.

 

[kietotheworld]

I think he's a better striker, a better finisher anyway and in all honestly, given a last minute penalty against Chelsea in the CL game, I'd rather Owen take it than Berbatov, easily.

In terms of trickery, then Berbatov but his little pirouettes are few and far between.

He can trap a ball better than pretty much anyone I've ever seen, and that includes Cantona, but it's what Eric did with the ball after he'd controlled it that mattered, not just so you can go watch it in a youtube video afterwards in a compilation with Fallout Boy as the soundtrack.

Berbatov's goal versus Blackpool (the winner) was the first time I've seen him run at a defender and take him on to score a goal like that, the majority of his goals have been in the box from a pass or a cross.

If Owen is a better striker then I can't understand why Ferguson never picks him, and more importantly why his goalscoring record in the League is so poor for us. I doubt Owen is a better finisher, he simply gets more chances because of his movement, he often misses good chances. Berbatov's record of shots on target to goals is exceptional, this season it is better than all but two of all Premier League players who have scored 10+ goals. His shots to goals ratio is also better than all but two players, and his minutes per goal statistics are better than all but one. If Owen had played as much as Berbatov I sincerely doubt he'd have done all that, he has no pace, poor technique, very little strength, and isn't a particularly good finisher. All he's got is his movement, and without the rest that's pretty worthless

As for a last minute penalty against Chelsea, well neither of them would be likely to take it if they were on the pitch, but Owen's record from the spot is dreadful, 50% AFAIK.

 

[Saliph]

Fair enough. Some people just see criticising "one of your own" as tantamount to treason and will defend any United player to the hilt.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it any more than looking enviously across at our rivals and thinking, "I wish he played for us instead".

The funny thing is, I used to think that about Berba when he was at Spurs!

I think Fergie just likes the option of Berba because he does things no one else can do. The problem for some of us is that he doesn't do them often enough and even when he does, they don't necessarily lead to a goal or even a more advantageous situation.

Possibly the question that needs to be addressed is: if we got rid of Berba, who would take his place that adds something different to what we already have? And the options fall quite drastically.

Overall, I am of the opinion that Berba hasn't done enough since joining us. Yes, he's scored some goals this season but he is playing for the best team in England and a team that tends to get to the latter stages of all competitions. I just don't think he has done anything any half-decent striker couldn't have done.

His heading is awful, his positional sense is awful and his attitude is often awful.

Yes, he might love being at United and he might be 100% committed to the cause and wanting to do well with every ounce of his being but so would I if I wore the United shirt... I'd still be shit though.

This is bullshit. It's not about that, and to make that argument is absolutely rubbish. The amount of critique Berbatov has received since joining us is absolutely shocking, and has no basis in reality what so ever. Especially considering all the ridiculous praise Tevez got (which in my opinion was not all deserved, not even in 07/08).

I really question the loyalty of some of the people on here. Going on and on about Tevez and how great he was, and how everything was hunky dory before Berba joined us, it's just bullshit. Tevez was decent to good in 07/08, and shockingly poor in 08/09, and then halfway through his last season turned into uber-cnut and finally topped it all off by joining our rivals. Why anyone would want to have a cnut like that in the club is beyond me, but still certain people go on and on about him like he's some kind of Messiah.

On the other hand we have Berba. Underwhelming in his first two seasons (though every bit as good as Tevez was in his first two), got shitloads of criticism, some if it deservedly, but has turned it around this season and is the league's top scorer. On top of that he's been incredibly professional ever since joining us, always saying the right things in the media, no private bullshit, no complaints whatsoever when dropped. Top scorer and has won us more games than any other player, including an incredible hat-trick against Liverpool. And still some people won't get off his back.

Some of you should take a long hard look at yourselves. Give credit where credit's due, even if it means swallowing some of your pride.

 

[Scoreboard Red]

No I'm saying we don't have the central midfielders capable of winning the midfield battle in a 442 against good opposition. Because we don't have a Keane/Scholes partnership it's not possible to play against the best teams in Europe with a Carrick/Fletcher midfield, we get dominated and there is no service to our strikers. How can you expect a striker to perform if he gets no service? It's not like he's missing tonnes of chances, they just aren't being created for him.

Well I tend to agree about the midfield but that's another issue; we are sorely lacking figures in the middle of the park who can tackle, create and score goals but we've had the same midfield for a few years, whilst I would agree it seems Carrick is deteriorating as time progresses and Scholes is ageing, Rooney still found it easy to score in Europe last year, as did Owen in the group stages and I'm sure he would have been used later had he not been injured.
Hernandez is now scoring in league, cup and Europe with the same midfield, is it not these players are finding space better and utilising the ball better than Berbatov?

 

[Scoreboard Red]

This is bullshit. It's not about that, and to make that argument is absolutely rubbish. The amount of critique Berbatov has received since joining us is absolutely shocking, and has no basis in reality what so ever. Especially considering all the ridiculous praise Tevez got (which in my opinion was not all deserved, not even in 07/08).

I really question the loyalty of some of the people on here. Going on and on about Tevez and how great he was, and how everything was hunky dory before Berba joined us, it's just bullshit. Tevez was decent to good in 07/08, and shockingly poor in 08/09, and then halfway through his last season turned into uber-cnut and finally topped it all off by joining our rivals. Why anyone would want to have a cnut like that in the club is beyond me, but still certain people go on and on about him like he's some kind of Messiah.

On the other hand we have Berba. Underwhelming in his first two seasons (though every bit as good as Tevez was in his first two), got shitloads of criticism, some if it deservedly, but has turned it around this season and is the league's top scorer. On top of that he's been incredibly professional ever since joining us, always saying the right things in the media, no private bullshit, no complaints whatsoever when dropped. Top scorer and has won us more games than any other player, including an incredible hat-trick against Liverpool. And still some people won't get off his back.

Some of you should take a long hard look at yourselves. Give credit where credit's due, even if it means swallowing some of your pride.

No-one's mentioned Tevez mate, not at all - wind your neck in fella and settle down.

 

[Saliph]

No-one's mentioned Tevez mate, not at all - wind your neck in fella and settle down.

Plenty have, both in the mains and in the newbies since I joined.

Calmer than you are.

 

[golden_blunder]

Johnno, i'll say it only 1 more time. Stop fecking trolling. And don't pretend you don't know what it means, you know full fecking well what it means. Your posts in this thread are nothing more than digging, digging, digging. I'm not the only person to notice it or comment on it, but i'll sure be the last

 

[Scoreboard Red]

If Owen is a better striker then I can't understand why Ferguson never picks him, and more importantly why his goalscoring record in the League is so poor for us. I doubt Owen is a better finisher, he simply gets more chances because of his movement, he often misses good chances. Berbatov's record of shots on target to goals is exceptional, this season it is better than all but two of all Premier League players who have scored 10+ goals. His shots to goals ratio is also better than all but two players, and his minutes per goal statistics are better than all but one. If Owen had played as much as Berbatov I sincerely doubt he'd have done all that, he has no pace, poor technique, very little strength, and isn't a particularly good finisher. All he's got is his movement, and without the rest that's pretty worthless

The reason he's not played more is because he's been injured so often, plain and simple which is very frustrating because he's actually got quite a good scoring record when he's available and given a decent length of time to make an impact.
And you have said it yourself mate, Owen's movement and space-opening is superior to Berbatov, a striker who creates chances for himself with his movement is always liable to score goals and Owen scores goals wherever he's been. Owen is the best English finisher in football since Lineker.

 

[evra]

Well I tend to agree about the midfield but that's another issue; we are sorely lacking figures in the middle of the park who can tackle, create and score goals but we've had the same midfield for a few years, whilst I would agree it seems Carrick is deteriorating as time progresses and Scholes is ageing, Rooney still found it easy to score in Europe last year, as did Owen in the group stages and I'm sure he would have been used later had he not been injured.
Hernandez is now scoring in league, cup and Europe with the same midfield, is it not these players are finding space better and utilising the ball better than Berbatov?

If you're talking in general then no, Berbatov is the top scorer in the league and the top scorer at the club by a distance.

I've explained why I think Berbatov has been comparatively disappointing in Europe, he can't play in a 451 which is the system we use predominantly in Europe. Hernandez and Rooney can both play in that system and also double as wingers if required (as they did against Marseille at home).

SAF must have known he wasn't buying a lone front man. If he wants to play 442 against the best sides in Europe then he should go out and buy a central midfield capable of operating in that system. As I've said before Berbatov is not missing chances left right and centre, he's been quite clinical this season.

 

[Scoreboard Red]

If you're talking in general then no, Berbatov is the top scorer in the league and the top scorer at the club by a distance.

I've explained why I think Berbatov has been comparatively disappointing in Europe, he can't play in a 451 which is the system we use predominantly in Europe. Hernandez and Rooney can both play in that system and also double as wingers if required (as they did against Marseille at home).

SAF must have known he wasn't buying a lone front man. If he wants to play 442 against the best sides in Europe then he should go out and buy a central midfield capable of operating in that system. As I've said before Berbatov is not missing chances left right and centre, he's been quite clinical this season.

No, the reason we play 4-5-1 is because Berbatov doesn't PERFORM in Europe in important ties, that's not to say he can't, he just doesn't.
That's why Fergie utilises the 4-5-1 because he doesn't want to use him and as I said, it worked versus Arsenal but not against Barca.

 

[evra]

No, the reason we play 4-5-1 is because Berbatov doesn't PERFORM in Europe in important ties, that's not to say he can't, he just doesn't.
That's why Fergie utilises the 4-5-1 because he doesn't want to use him and as I said, it worked versus Arsenal but not against Barca.

No, you've already admitted that our midfield is lacking, we were overrun playing a 442 against WBA, Everton, Liverpool, Aston Villa just off the top of my head. He plays 451 in Europe because we lose the midfield battle against good sides if we don't have three central midfielders, it's got nothing to do with Berbatov.

 

[Scoreboard Red]

No, you've already admitted that our midfield is lacking, we were overrun playing a 442 against WBA, Everton, Liverpool, Aston Villa just off the top of my head. He plays 451 in Europe because we lose the midfield battle against good sides if we don't have three central midfielders, it's got nothing to do with Berbatov.

We played 4-4-2 against the best sides in Europe for years, all this 4-5-1 nonsense about the game changing, it hasn't; it's still played with a round ball by eleven men, the reason we play 4-5-1 is because one of the strikers doesn't have the required work rate to successfully work against the better teams.

 

[Alex]

We played 4-4-2 against the best sides in Europe for years, all this 4-5-1 nonsense about the game changing, it hasn't; it's still played with a round ball by eleven men, the reason we play 4-5-1 is because one of the strikers doesn't have the required work rate to successfully work against the better teams.

In fairness, it is because our two man midfield would get overrun, that's far more of an issue than Berbatov having a poor work rate, it's more to do with our midfield lacking balls.

 

[evra]

We played 4-4-2 against the best sides in Europe for years, all this 4-5-1 nonsense about the game changing, it hasn't; it's still played with a round ball by eleven men, the reason we play 4-5-1 is because one of the strikers doesn't have the required work rate to successfully work against the better teams.

When we had midfielders like Keane, Robson and Ince, those days are gone.

 

[Alex]

When we had midfielders like Keane, Robson and Ince, those days are gone.

Exactly you can only play two in central midfield these days, if one of those two can do the work of two players and do it well

 

[Scoreboard Red]

When we had midfielders like Keane, Robson and Ince, those days are gone.

Neither Robson or Ince played in our successful European campaigns (of which I categorise Champions League campaigns after 1996/97 onwards), so I can hardly expect to include either these two in there.

 

[Scoreboard Red]

Exactly you can only play two in central midfield these days, if one of those two can do the work of two players and do it well

Well the plan was to do so with Hargreaves allowing the likes of Carrick or Anderson to roam but since he went on the compo, we've not had a tackling player of note.
Fletcher is probably the nearest thing to it, but he's more scrappy than solid and Scholes couldn't tackle a fishing rod.

 

[Alex]

Neither Robson or Ince played in our successful European campaigns (of which I categorise Champions League campaigns after 1996/97 onwards), so I can hardly expect to include either these two in there.

If you class it like that since 96-97, then United havent always played with two strikers in Europe, actually during that just as oftenime 1 up front has probably been used t

 

[TheMancRedDevil]

This is bullshit. It's not about that, and to make that argument is absolutely rubbish.

So most fans don't see criticising one of our own players as a bad thing? I disagree but continue.

The amount of critique Berbatov has received since joining us is absolutely shocking, and has no basis in reality what so ever.

OK. Stop for a second. I do remember when Berba was on the verge of signing and most United fans were absolutely delighted by it. When city tried to hijack the move, most of us were pissed off but then he made the right choice and joined us.

Very, very few people were on Berba's case at that moment in time. He had proved that he was joining us for the right reasons. Most of us loved him all the more for it.

However, whatever criticism Berba has attracted since is not because of some arbitrary decision to take frustrations out on him. It stems from something very real.

Especially considering all the ridiculous praise Tevez got (which in my opinion was not all deserved, not even in 07/08).

I didn't like Tevez either but comparing him to a piece of shit doesn't make Berba any better. Continue.

I really question the loyalty of some of the people on here. Going on and on about Tevez and how great he was, and how everything was hunky dory before Berba joined us, it's just bullshit. Tevez was decent to good in 07/08, and shockingly poor in 08/09, and then halfway through his last season turned into uber-cnut and finally topped it all off by joining our rivals. Why anyone would want to have a cnut like that in the club is beyond me, but still certain people go on and on about him like he's some kind of Messiah.

OK. Did I mention Tevez at any point?

On the other hand we have Berba. Underwhelming in his first two seasons (though every bit as good as Tevez was in his first two), got shitloads of criticism, some if it deservedly, but has turned it around this season and is the league's top scorer. On top of that he's been incredibly professional ever since joining us, always saying the right things in the media, no private bullshit, no complaints whatsoever when dropped. Top scorer and has won us more games than any other player, including an incredible hat-trick against Liverpool. And still some people won't get off his back.

Diego Forlan got a match-winning brace against Liverpool. He will always be remembered fondly because of it. But he was still ditched not long afterwards. Saying the right things, doing the right things and not complaining is the least I expect from a footballer representing Manchester United. It's not something particularly praiseworthy in and of itself. That shit should be taken for granted. Giggs and Scholes have not appeared in the papers for 20 years (except for the back pages) but that's not the only reason why we love them.

Some of you should take a long hard look at yourselves. Give credit where credit's due, even if it means swallowing some of your pride.

I do give credit to Berba when it's due. I recognise his contributions. I just don't think that his contributions have been massive.

Yes, he scored a winning goal the other day. Hoorah for Berba.

Nani took a shot, the goalie fumbled it and Berba just about knocked in the rebound. I don't think that that was an example of £30million worth of attacking genius at work there. Hernandez would have been onto the same ball if he had still been on the pitch. So would Macheda, for that matter.

Forlan probably would have knocked it in too.

As for Andy Cole, he'd have been onto the ball before the goalie even had chance to fumble it.

George Best would have got the ball, dribbled it around the keeper and slotted it home neatly.

Credit where it's due but keep it in perspective, eh?

 

[Eriku]

So most fans don't see criticising one of our own players as a bad thing? I disagree but continue.



OK. Stop for a second. I do remember when Berba was on the verge of signing and most United fans were absolutely delighted by it. When city tried to hijack the move, most of us were pissed off but then he made the right choice and joined us.

Very, very few people were on Berba's case at that moment in time. He had proved that he was joining us for the right reasons. Most of us loved him all the more for it.

However, whatever criticism Berba has attracted since is not because of some arbitrary decision to take frustrations out on him. It stems from something very real.



I didn't like Tevez either but comparing him to a piece of shit doesn't make Berba any better. Continue.



OK. Did I mention Tevez at any point?



Diego Forlan got a match-winning brace against Liverpool. He will always be remembered fondly because of it. But he was still ditched not long afterwards. Saying the right things, doing the right things and not complaining is the least I expect from a footballer representing Manchester United. It's not something particularly praiseworthy in and of itself. That shit should be taken for granted. Giggs and Scholes have not appeared in the papers for 20 years (except for the back pages) but that's not the only reason why we love them.



I do give credit to Berba when it's due. I recognise his contributions. I just don't think that his contributions have been massive.

Yes, he scored a winning goal the other day. Hoorah for Berba.

Nani took a shot, the goalie fumbled it and Berba just about knocked in the rebound. I don't think that that was an example of £30million worth of attacking genius at work there. Hernandez would have been onto the same ball if he had still been on the pitch. So would Macheda, for that matter.

Forlan probably would have knocked it in too.

As for Andy Cole, he'd have been onto the ball before the goalie even had chance to fumble it.

George Best would have got the ball, dribbled it around the keeper and slotted it home neatly.

Credit where it's due but keep it in perspective, eh?

Bit in bold is reason enough to call the entire post there stupid. If nothing else it's a perfect example of the unfair expectations heaved on him.

 

[TheMancRedDevil]

Bit in bold is reason enough to call the entire post there stupid. If nothing else it's a perfect example of the unfair expectations heaved on him.

I expect him to score goals. How fecking unfair!

 

[Scoreboard Red]

If you class it like that since 96-97, then United havent always played with two strikers in Europe, actually during that just as oftenime 1 up front has probably been used t

There's only been a few seasons including the recent where United haven't used two strikers mate, they were when Veron was with us and now since Berbatov arrived;

1996/97 - Cantona, Solskjaer & Cole - Andy Cole was injured most of 1996/97 but returned strong and regained his place but United went with Eric & Ole in the CL games.
1997/98 - Cole, Sheringham and Solskjaer - A resurgent Cole often partnered Sheringham with Ole picked behind the two.
1998/99 - Cole, Yorke, Solskjaer & Sheringham - Fergie went with rotation but marginally favoured Cole & Yorke for most games with two strikers always.
1999/2000 - as above
2000/01 - Solskjaer & Sheringham mostly
2001/02 - Van Nistelrooy & Solskjaer - admittedly in some games, RVN was played as lone striker however in a 4-4-1-1 formation with Scholes behind and Veron in midfield
2002/03 - Van Nistelrooy & Solskjaer - as above, Forlan also featured sparingly.
2003/04 - Van Nistelrooy & Solskjaer - mainly 4-4-2 formation
2004/05 - Van Nistelrooy, Rooney & Saha - 4-4-2
2005/06 - Van Nistelrooy, Rooney & Saha - 4-4-2
2006/07 - Rooney, Saha & Solskjaer - 4-4-2
2007/08 - Rooney, Tevez & Ronaldo -4-4-2 or 4-3-3
2008/09 - Rooney, Berbatov, Tevez and Ronaldo 4-4-2 then 4-5-1 in knockouts
2009/10 - Rooney, Berbatov & Owen - 4-4-2 then 4-5-1 in knockouts
2010/11 - Rooney, Hernandez, Berbatov and Owen -4-4-2 mainly so far

 

[Eriku]

I expect him to score goals. How fecking unfair!

lol... He scores a hattrick and you go "so what? Diego made the Scousers cry too". He nabs the winner against Bolton and you go "well, Coley and Best would've done it with more flair and pace, and Forlan would've managed it too!"

It just seems that he can't win with you.

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

 

[TheMancRedDevil]

lol... He scores a hattrick and you go "so what? Diego made the Scousers cry too". He nabs the winner against Bolton and you go "well, Coley and Best would've done it with more flair and pace, and Forlan would've managed it too!"

It just seems that he can't win with you.

What I am saying is that these things as and of themselves don't make him anything special.

What he is doing this season is what he should have been doing last season and the season before it.

In his first season, we had the excuse that he was a deadline transfer and so he didn't have a full pre-season under his belt. "Ok", we all said. Fair enough.

But then last season he was no better.

To my mind, he is doing nothing this season that shouldn't be expected of a Manchester United forward. 21 goals is very good but nothing special. If this was RVN, we'd be saying, "Shit, what's happened to him?"

The slight snag with him is that we aren't talking about a 25 year old here. We haven't been grooming a rookie for the last two years. Berba should have been the real deal from the moment he arrived. He's 30 now and only just coming good for us.

Fergie most certainly didn't buy him on the premise that he would come good in three seasons' time.

What Fergie DID buy him for, however, was to add that little bit of nous in Europe. In those tight games against top opposition where Berba's flair could prove the difference between success and failure.

He hasn't really done that, has he? Why not?

 

[SharkyMcShark]

What I am saying is that these things as and of themselves don't make him anything special.

What he is doing this season is what he should have been doing last season and the season before it.

In his first season, we had the excuse that he was a deadline transfer and so he didn't have a full pre-season under his belt. "Ok", we all said. Fair enough.

But then last season he was no better.

To my mind, he is doing nothing this season that shouldn't be expected of a Manchester United forward. 21 goals is very good but nothing special. If this was RVN, we'd be saying, "Shit, what's happened to him?"

The slight snag with him is that we aren't talking about a 25 year old here. We haven't been grooming a rookie for the last two years. Berba should have been the real deal from the moment he arrived. He's 30 now and only just coming good for us.

Fergie most certainly didn't buy him on the premise that he would come good in three seasons' time.

What Fergie DID buy him for, however, was to add that little bit of nous in Europe. In those tight games against top opposition where Berba's flair could prove the difference between success and failure.

He hasn't really done that, has he? Why not?

You're bang on - the way people go on about this tap in you'd think it was an amazing goal against one of our biggest rivals.

But its not, clearly.

 

[SharkyMcShark]

We played 4-4-2 against the best sides in Europe for years, all this 4-5-1 nonsense about the game changing, it hasn't; it's still played with a round ball by eleven men, the reason we play 4-5-1 is because one of the strikers doesn't have the required work rate to successfully work against the better teams.

Are you Steve Claridge in disguise?

 

[Scoreboard Red]

Are you Steve Claridge in disguise?

I got no idea what that means, I know who Steve Claridge is but don't know what that quote's meant to mean.
Fail!

 

[SharkyMcShark]

I got no idea what that means, I know who Steve Claridge is but don't know what that quote's meant to mean.
Fail!

Steve Claridge represents everything that is wrong with the development if English football, who seems to think that a big frontman in a 442 with an English manager is the best way to solve any problem.

Saying 451 is nonsense and completely misunderstanding the reason we use it is Claridge esque.

 

[Scoreboard Red]

Steve Claridge represents everything that is wrong with the development if English football, who seems to think that a big frontman in a 442 with an English manager is the best way to solve any problem.

Saying 451 is nonsense and completely misunderstanding the reason we use it is Claridge esque.

Oh yes well you completely make sense now.
Bro, you still fiz-ailed...

I'm not saying use a lumping great CF in a 4-4-2 at all, and I have no qualms if our next manager was English, Scottish, Portuguese or Swahili so I'm nowt like Claridge.

Stop failing, you failure.

 

[SharkyMcShark]

Right forget the Claridge comparison then.

We played 4-4-2 against the best sides in Europe for years, all this 4-5-1 nonsense about the game changing, it hasn't; it's still played with a round ball by eleven men, the reason we play 4-5-1 is because one of the strikers doesn't have the required work rate to successfully work against the better teams.

You're talking rubbish, explain yourself.

 

[Scoreboard Red]

Right forget the Claridge comparison then.





You're talking rubbish, explain yourself.

In response to those saying we have to play 4-5-1 in Europe, I'm asking why we need to when in years gone by, our more successful sides have never felt compelled to HAVE to resort to 4-5-1; we played a classic 4-4-2 in 1999 and did so again in 2008 (although this was a variant on 4-3-3 with Ronaldo often the furthest man forward for United) and not having to resort to playing our best forward, Rooney, on the left wing.
I assume you're calling me some sort of bigot or something for suggesting we play like this rather than an Italian or Spanish side when in reality it's simply our best method; attack.
Whenever Fergie has tinkered with the tried and trusted formation, we've not succeeded.
Veron was a good player, like Berbatov and the comparisons don't stop there. Both were very expensive and both came in at a time when their respective areas of the field were very adept (Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Butt etc - Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez) and the best in Europe of any club at the time. Juventus' midfield could argue that claim in 1999 and Barca's attack in 2008 respectively, but we beat both of those, didn't we?
In saying Berbatov isn't good in Europe in a 4-5-1 then you're saying Berba isn't good in our best formation, which is easily 4-4-2 with the right players as demonstrated for decades and in modern times, the 4-5-1 is effective for sure and I've no issues using it against, say, an Italian team away but why use it against Barcelona when they're gonna mangle you in the midfield? You need to attack them and score to beat them, simple as.

 

[Saliph]

OK. Stop for a second. I do remember when Berba was on the verge of signing and most United fans were absolutely delighted by it. When city tried to hijack the move, most of us were pissed off but then he made the right choice and joined us.

Very, very few people were on Berba's case at that moment in time. He had proved that he was joining us for the right reasons. Most of us loved him all the more for it.

However, whatever criticism Berba has attracted since is not because of some arbitrary decision to take frustrations out on him. It stems from something very real.

It stems from idiots who can not see other contributions than numbers like goals and assists, and who have an inability to put two and two together. Berbas goal return in his first two seasons was somewhat disappointing. Coupling it with assists it was decent. His all-round play was good. But a lot of fans when they hear the word "striker" they immediately expect Ruud-like goal returns, and just that. Berba is not that sort of player, he's never been.

I didn't like Tevez either but comparing him to a piece of shit doesn't make Berba any better. Continue.

What? "Continue".

OK. Did I mention Tevez at any point?

No, it was a general observation. And in my experience the most vocal Berba-haters are usually the ones who wanted Tevez to stay.

I do give credit to Berba when it's due. I recognise his contributions. I just don't think that his contributions have been massive.

Of course not, just league top scorer, our most effective striker in terms of goals to minutes, and has scored more match winning goals than any of our players.

Yes, he scored a winning goal the other day. Hoorah for Berba.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Downplaying his contributions. Tevez was lauded for scoring goals like that, but when Berba does it it's sarcasm and "well he cost thirty fecking million quid".

Nani took a shot, the goalie fumbled it and Berba just about knocked in the rebound. I don't think that that was an example of £30million worth of attacking genius at work there. Hernandez would have been onto the same ball if he had still been on the pitch. So would Macheda, for that matter.

Forlan probably would have knocked it in too.

As for Andy Cole, he'd have been onto the ball before the goalie even had chance to fumble it.

George Best would have got the ball, dribbled it around the keeper and slotted it home neatly.

That's the dumbest thing I've read on here for quite some time.

Credit where it's due but keep it in perspective, eh?

Yes, God forbid we actually like him.

 

[redpie]

Classy player. Jedi calm not equal laziness. Score Berbatov he does.

 

[EricaNo7]

I was delighted when he came to us- like Sultan has said previously, I too thought he would be like Cantona, but that was probably wishful thinking on my part.
He's had a rocky couple of seasons, but he's really delivered this season, when Rooney wasn't - at all.

I'd love to see him in front of a strong midfield ( something we're lacking badly, and which doesn't help him surely )