I am behaving, I'm giving my honest opinions about football matters being asked of me, I'm not seeking out gripes if that's what trolling means.
I'm not being abusive either...
Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances
- Thread starter Commadus
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I am behaving, I'm giving my honest opinions about football matters being asked of me, I'm not seeking out gripes if that's what trolling means.
I'm not being abusive either...
I'm going to sleep anyway, late here.
Night y'all...
Night y'all...
I'm wondering what Berbatov's showing would be like if we had a world class central midfield unit (especially one with the type of midfielders who bomb forward to score). What we have with Berbatov and Rooney are two 'strikers' who both come very deep to get involved, and this sometimes works to our disadvantage. When Rooney has been paired with Hernandez we've seen the benefits of having at least one player being constantly involved on the backline of the oppositions defence.
If we invested heavily on solid, world class central midfield unit, who attack as well we might see a change in fortunes (I'm thinking of the likes of Robson, Keane and Scholes in their prime). Berbatov and Rooney would pull the defenders forward whilst the midfielders could bomb forward, aided by the types of wingers we already have (Valencia and in particular Nani who could also cut inside and wreak havok for opposition defences). This could be devastating in an attacking sense. Hernandez would also provide the option of a more natural goalscorer depending on opposition and at times a threat from the bench.
For the record I don't think Berbatov performed at all well until this season, but perhaps he just didn't fit in with the way we were playing and the personnel as much as anything else.
If we invested heavily on solid, world class central midfield unit, who attack as well we might see a change in fortunes (I'm thinking of the likes of Robson, Keane and Scholes in their prime). Berbatov and Rooney would pull the defenders forward whilst the midfielders could bomb forward, aided by the types of wingers we already have (Valencia and in particular Nani who could also cut inside and wreak havok for opposition defences). This could be devastating in an attacking sense. Hernandez would also provide the option of a more natural goalscorer depending on opposition and at times a threat from the bench.
For the record I don't think Berbatov performed at all well until this season, but perhaps he just didn't fit in with the way we were playing and the personnel as much as anything else.
But this doesn't really address that somehow you think he's good, but not that good, compared to say O'Shea and Fletcher.
I understand that you probably mean these players have been excellent squad players, Fletcher with a bigger influence in recent years, and that they maybe don't get the praise they deserve. But it wasn't too long ago that Fletcher was shit, really shit. He needed years to adapt to the level of United, and in looks like our patience paid off. Fletcher grew with us, and after years in the reserves coupled with minor appearences in the league, he settled in. The same with Nani. Why not treat Berbatov the same?
Berbatov has been here for just over 2 years now since we brought him. He is now showing some of the ability we brought him for, and showcasing it over the course of a season, especially when we have needed it, given we were short on options up front, and Rooney being pretty inefective at the start of the season. In two season of 40+ games he couldn't get past 15 goals. In his third season in 34 games, he is on 21 goals. This is a clear sign of massive improvement, and for me, evidence that he is settling down at our level, as Fletcher did, except his influence this season has been huge.
just seen some wierd rumours claiming he be off juventus and Genoa in the summer.
what loads of rubbish.
what loads of rubbish.
He'll sign a new contract in the next few months.
This is pretty symptomatic of the last half of the decade more than anything, rather than Berbatov taking advantage of a particularly bad year as you seem to be suggesting?).
Last year was more of an exception. For example, Berbatov's already outscored the top scorer in 08/09.
No. of players over 15 goals in a season:
2 - 04/05
3 - 06/07, 08/09
4 - 07/08
6 - 01/02, 02/03, 05/06
7 - 09/10
9 - 03/04
Average over the last decade is 4 players over 15 goals a season - who'd bet against two of Van Persie, Caroll, and Bent to get another 5 goals in the next 9 and put this season in line with the average?
Nowadays? Haven't we played that way for most of your life?
True, although in my opinion we were less direct when Queiroz was assistant manager.
My observation of Berbatov since his move to United is that of a player who has all the footballing attributes to be on par with Cantona - however, for reasons which are beyond me he has somehow never fulfilled MY expectations. My only complaint is he could and should be much better than has been over the last three seasons with all the talent he possesses.
What's your observation of him based solely on this season?
Was just about to say this actually.
You mean like his offsides..
Like we have never played possession football before?
As to the last part - I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Berbatov has had a top season so far and even though I thought he should have started against Bolton SAF made the right call in bringing him on for his height at corners - something which I have banged on about.
Bolton sat back in the first half and we didn't have many chances though we should have got a penalty. In the second half after Berbatov came on it was much the same for a while. However when Evans was sent off Bolton started to push on us more and they opened up and this created the space we needed.
In the end if we end up with 3 strikers scoring on a regular basis - thats brilliant.
Got to disagree with that. Does it make Berbatov case more tragic and thus a greater story that you talk about his talent as some fallen genius?
Berbatov this season has been excellent but I wouldn't class him on a par with Cantona.
His best season obviously.
Oozing class in some matches, then seems to drop a few gears for some reason. I think a lot of complaints against Berbatov is not due to the size of his fee, but frustration. Everyone can see he has the talent to be amongst the very best in the world in his position.
I understand football is about opinions. Mine is Berbatov on purely footballing ability ranks with Cantona. However, Berbatov lacks a lot of the ingredients (personality, Mentality) what made Cantona become such a great player and leader.
Not a fallen genius no...
May be my expectation of Berbatov was probably over estimated. Which is more my failings than that of Berbatov's.
Like the markets opinion of Berba goes from one extreme to another.
It was Steve Bruce who drew the comparision.
https://www.redcafe.net/f7/steve-bruce-berbatov-reminds-me-certain-player-198022/
https://www.redcafe.net/f7/steve-bruce-berbatov-reminds-me-certain-player-198022/
I'm not very good with analysis.
My observation of Berbatov this season has been of inconsistency. Has he not scored a few hat-tricks, a five in one game and a few two goal games?
I think all players score in spurts apart from Ruud who just scored!
Even in the games he did not score he was still contributing - perhaps not in terms of goals or assists but with Rooney off form we were relying on Berba on a fair few occassions.
You mean like his offsides..
Like we have never played possession football before?
As to the last part - I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Berbatov has had a top season so far and even though I thought he should have started against Bolton SAF made the right call in bringing him on for his height at corners - something which I have banged on about.
Bolton sat back in the first half and we didn't have many chances though we should have got a penalty. In the second half after Berbatov came on it was much the same for a while. However when Evans was sent off Bolton started to push on us more and they opened up and this created the space we needed.
In the end if we end up with 3 strikers scoring on a regular basis - thats brilliant.
I made two points in the post you quoted. Berbatov has the ability to do things in a match that defy belief (often involving him keeping possession when it seems impossible to do so). Berbatov is a player who rarely gives the ball away and would suit a slower paced, Barcelona style gameplan. I don't see how you've addressed, let alone discredited my points.
I'm sure he has contributed more than I/we give credit. Still this feeling lingers we are being short changed by Berbatov. Simply because he has so much more to give due to his undoubted talent.
There is a difference between idolising "workmanlike players" and idolising consistantly productive/effective players. For every "how the feck" moment there is at least 3 "what the feck" moments, which is his main problem - consistancy.
He'll yell at a midfielder for not passing the ball whilst he's 4 yards offside. Then stand offside whilst a midfielder is looking for a pass, without considering moving. Then he'll do something magic, then he'll hold on to the ball too long whilst we are counter-attacking allowing the opposition to get back into position. Rince repeat and that is essentially Berbatov.
He has been much better this season and overall has been effective, but "unfortunately" he'll always be compared to his pricetag. Which in all fairness isn't that unfortunate. We bought him because he was supposed to be a proven, finished article Premier League striker and what is expected of him comes from that, which in turn comes from his pricetag. We don't compare Hernandez to Torres or Smalling to Ferdinand, but we do compare Berbatov to Rooney/Tevez/Villa etc... and rightly so.
1) Berba attempted 10 passes against Bolton - he completed 5. We can go through other matches as well so I don't think I would refer to that as "rarely".
2) Barcelona play slow football? I think we can end it right here. Guardiola says he implores 2 aspects to all his players - positioning and pressure - neither apply to Berba. How many times you see him caught needlessly offside because he is slow to keep up with the defenders stepping up. As to pressuring when he doesnt have the ball - yeah right.
Can you list these belief defying pieces of skill? Using hyperbole doesn't add to to your argument.
I saw Berbatov in front of the Bolton defenders by many yards on quite a few occasions walking back slowly. He is the type of character who easily frustrates and gets frustrated and drops his head when the team is not functioning as well as required.
Well there have only been 3 league games where Berbatov hasn't played a single minute - Wolves (H) where we started with Obertan and Hargreaves amongst others, Wigan (H) where we started with Macheda and Obertan up front, and Arsenal (H) the game after he scored 5 against Blackburn where we played one up front. They're the only games I removed from Johnno's list, and I don't feel he was dropped from any of them due to lack of form.
1) Berbatov is the most advanced striker, of course his pass completion stats are going to be lower than say Carrick or Smalling. If Berbatov was sat in defensive midfield he would be pretty useless defensively but would have a terrific pass completion rate.
2) I said SLOWER not slow, at least read my post before you comment on it. Barcelona are patient, Utd have a high tempo and play comparitively direct football because Ferguson wants to get the ball into the box as quickly as possible.
There wont be youtube clips of Berbatov surrounded by three defenders at the corner flag/sideline and miraculously emerging with the ball as you well know. But you aren't really telling me that you haven't noticed Berbatov doing this more often than other players are you?
No we weren't.
In the premiership we've always played quick football or atleast tried to.
In the UCL and against the better PL teams we've switched to a more passing and possession based game. That still continues to be the case, Queiroz or not.
Pretty much agree with all this. Especially the bolded bits.
That's your opinion, personally I observed that the style of play we displayed when Queiroz was involved (especially in his second stint) was a more patient build up. Again I'm not saying it was a slow build up, rather a slower build up. I have to say that this season in the league we have been very direct, even compared to seasons gone by, probably because our central midfield has run out of ideas.
1) You said berba rarely gives the ball away and thats been resoundly refuted with you trying to make some other claim.
2) We play a variety of styles depending on the way we are set up. As to Barcelona you confuse possession with slowness. Barca probe with the ball but watch the number of attacks created with a simple ball to Alves. They can change the pace of their attacks with a sudden burst. Ibra is a very similar player to berba and he didnt fit in - nor would Berba.
The fact you believe Berba suits Barca style of play has more to do with you drawing a conclusion about Berba and then trying to fit your opinion around that and drawing some quite far fetched claims.
Berba doing exactly what more than other players?
Not this again.
We don't actually have a midfield - just think of it - what we could do if we actually played a midfield. Nani goals and assists should be scrubbed off.
Why hasnt Bernatov done the business in the Champions League. Where we noticably play with a far slower and more patient build up?
1) For someone playing in his position Berbatov rarely gives the ball away, you have to take the advanced position he's playing into account.
2) Compared to Barcelona we play a direct game, that much is obvious to all but you. I'm not confusing anything, on average Barcelona take longer than utd to get from one end of the pitch to the other.
This Berbatov Ibra comparison is so lazy (excuse the pun) because both are languid and perceived as having low work rates they are considered like for like. Berbatov doesn't have a problem with his work rate, Ferguson himself has come out and said that the stats don't support this fallacy that he's bone idle. Personally I think that Ibra is a better finisher and has a far better long-shot but in terms of creativity and passing Berbatov is the better player. We'll never know if he would slot in perfectly but using Ibra as an indicator is foolhardy, they are not as similar as you think.
My original comment was that every game Berbatov is involved in he will exhibit some skill that has you on your feet. In particular he is terrific when in tight situations, surrounded by defenders- there are few players in the world better at keeping hold of the ball when in positions like this, the ball looks like it's glued to his foot when you see him live. Again this is one of the reasons I think they would appreciate him more in Barcelona, they seem to value keeping possession more than we do.
When I say midfield I mean central midfield, why do I need to explain that when it's obvious? Why on earth would I have a problem with the player with the highest number of assists in the league?
Just one thing Evra, in your team full of Berbatov's would you even have him as a keeper?
It would be hilarious though. They would all be fighting over who takes the corners. Not one of them will be arsed running all the way over to that flag...
It would be hilarious though. They would all be fighting over who takes the corners. Not one of them will be arsed running all the way over to that flag...
Don't about a team full of Berba's but he can definitely replace Evra. He's pretty used to being left back.
I'd just have Berbatov as a rush goalie.
1) I gave some stats which refuted this and you are still trying to make it stick.
2) You are just trying to make something tick no matter how stupid. All teams play at different tempos and even when they are attacking they can speed up or slow down the attack - changing tempo is a hallmark of top sides. The fact all you see is how fast the ball goes from back to front shows just how obsessed you are with trying to make a claim that supports your vie of Berba.
Against Bolton what skill had you on your feet? Against Wolves? Against Liverpool?
Every game? Again this your hyperbole.
Iniesta, Ronaldo, Xavi, Messi, Ozil, Fabregas, Scholes, Giggs, Kaka, Ibra, Ronaldinho the list goes on.
We don't value possession. That is just absurd bollocks and is an insult to the team SAF etc. In most games we have the greater amount of possession.
You are as annoying as Scorebored Red - just from a different perspective.
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