I can't be bothered to argue with you because you continually misquote me, I said that Barcelona value keeping possession MORE THAN we do. Can you grasp that this isn't the same as saying we don't value possession? Clearly they value keeping possession more than we do because their fecking goalkeeper hardly ever drop kicks the ball to the halfway line and VDS is clearly told to try that quite often.
Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances
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I can't be bothered to argue with you because you continually misquote me, I said that Barcelona value keeping possession MORE THAN we do. Can you grasp that this isn't the same as saying we don't value possession? Clearly they value keeping possession more than we do because their fecking goalkeeper hardly ever drop kicks the ball to the halfway line and VDS is clearly told to try that quite often.
Commadus
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I can't be bothered to argue with you because you continually misquote me, I said that Barcelona value keeping possession MORE THAN we do. Can you grasp that this isn't the same as saying we don't value possession? Clearly they value keeping possession more than we do because their fecking goalkeeper hardly ever drop kicks the ball to the halfway line and VDS is clearly told to try that quite often.
You cannot argue as you make absurd claims to confirm your own conclusions.
How do you know they value possession more than we do? It's a bollocks statement. Just because VD's may do a quick goal kick to start an attack it does not mean we like to just give away possession.
evra
Full Member
How do you know they value possession more than we do? It's a bollocks statement. Just because VD's may do a quick goal kick to start an attack it does not mean we like to just give away possession.
You really won't budge an inch on issues you are demonstrably incorrect on. VDS takes long goal kicks and long drop kicks far more often than Valdes does. He's not doing that on a whim it's part of Ferguson's more direct style. The chances of keeping possession using outlets like that are far lower than taking a quick throw, rolling it out to a defender or making a short pass (all of which Valdes does more than VDS). This alone demonstrates that Barca value keeping possession more, god knows why you are trying to argue against something which everyone in world football accepts.
I'm happy to engage in conversations with people who don't continually misquote me. Either you are deliberately misquoting for your own ends or you're too careless to read posts thoroughly before you try to rebut them. Either way it's fecking tiresome to keep correcting your deliberate/retarded mistakes and considering it's the third time I've had to do it in one day I'm out.
Commadus
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You really won't budge an inch on issues you are demonstrably incorrect on. VDS takes long goal kicks and long drop kicks far more often than Valdes does. He's not doing that on a whim it's part of Ferguson's more direct style. The chances of keeping possession using outlets like that are far lower than taking a quick throw, rolling it out to a defender or making a short pass (all of which Valdes does more than VDS). This alone demonstrates that Barca value keeping possession more, god knows why you are trying to argue against something which everyone in world football accepts.
I'm happy to engage in conversations with people who don't continually misquote me. Either you are deliberately misquoting for your own ends or you're too careless to read posts thoroughly before you try to rebut them. Either way it's fecking tiresome to keep correcting your deliberate/retarded mistakes and considering it's the third time I've had to do it in one day I'm out.
Whats retarded is your claims such as Berbatovs possession stats or things in every match which make you stand back or Barcelona style of football.
I am still waiting for the list of standount moments.
Would you also factor in we have taller forwards than Barca so kicking it long will not be as succesful. Your logic does not prove cause and effect.
As to misquoting you are the one who makes the baseless claims then wants to weasel out of them.
Randall makes a good point re Berba and CL football which you will fail to address because you cannot support another one of your baseless claims.
Like the markets opinion of Berba goes from one extreme to another.
So do his performances in fairness
I'm not very good with analysis.
My observation of Berbatov this season has been of inconsistency. Has he not scored a few hat-tricks, a five in one game and a few two goal games?
Even taking away the five against Blackburn, which you shouldn't because he scored them (Rood would take them away because you can't expect a player to score 5, so that's clearly an anomaly that can't be considered in a net spen... nah forget it!) he'd be clear second top scorer in the Premier League. You can't knock a striker who bags that many for you. Or you shouldn't
I would agree he's had his ups and downs though. A long period of form post Liverpool with no goals and performances that to my mind weren't good enough for the most part; and more recently losing his first team place
evra
Full Member
Whats retarded is your claims such as Berbatovs possession stats or things in every match which make you stand back or Barcelona style of football.
I am still waiting for the list of standount moments.
Would you also factor in we have taller forwards than Barca so kicking it long will not be as succesful. Your logic does not prove cause and effect.
As to misquoting you are the one who makes the baseless claims then wants to weasel out of them.
Randall makes a good point re Berba and CL football which you will fail to address because you cannot support another one of your baseless claims.
I refer you to my last post, I'm through arguing with someone who continually misquotes me, there's nothing in it for me but frustration. I will respond to RF's post when I've read it but I haven't got the patience to converse with you.
evra
Full Member
Why hasnt Bernatov done the business in the Champions League. Where we noticably play with a far slower and more patient build up?
Well I would suggest that we tend to play 451 in the CL which is a system Berbatov is not suited to, therefore his opportunities have been limited in the CL. When we have played 442 in Europe we are up against teams that have finished top or near the top of their respective leagues. Our central midfield has shown to be incapable of functioning in a two man midfield against good sides, therefore the service to our forwards has been very poor. Typically Berbatov will go deep to get involved in the play but this obviously leaves him out of position when we can mount an attack.
Commadus
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I refer you to my last post, I'm through arguing with someone who continually misquotes me, there's nothing in it for me but frustration. I will respond to RF's post when I've read it but I haven't got the patience to converse with you.
Yeah when 5/10 means rarely losing possession then I am sorry I misquoted you. The only frustration is that you get caught out by your hyperbole and claims so yeah I can understand that.
Others have mentioned how your claim that how we now play more direct than under Queiroz is just plain at odds with reality.
But this doesn't really address that somehow you think he's good, but not that good, compared to O'Shea & Fletcher.
Berbatov has been here for just over 2 years now since we brought him. He is now showing some of the ability we brought him for, and showcasing it over the course of a season, especially when we have needed it, given we were short on options up front, and Rooney being pretty inefective at the start of the season. In two season of 40+ games he couldn't get past 15 goals. In his third season in 34 games, he is on 21 goals. This is a clear sign of massive improvement, and for me, evidence that he is settling down at our level, as Fletcher did, except his influence this season has been huge.
Well first off it werent me who mentioned O'Shea & Fletcher it was Randall,
As for giving him a chance, the comparison with Fletcher is uncomparable as Fketcher was a youth product whereas Berbatov was an expensive signing at age 27, if your youth products dont produce then they don't get played.
If you buy experienced talent for big money, it's not outlandish to expect quick results. Maybe not immediately but certainly more than two full seasons.
Whilst we're not Real or Barca, a lot of football teams would sever ties with the misfiring after that sort of period, and let's get it right Fergue was in the market for a new forward lady summer.
A grade
The Languid One
Fecking deja vu every page in this thread...
and let's get it right Fergue was in the market for a new forward lady summer.
and he got it, Hernandez
Just because he was in the market for another striker, doesn't mean he was about to get rid of Berbatov
When we won the double in 99 we had 4 excellent forwards, Cole, Yorke, Sheringham and Ole
Shimo
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Well first off it werent me who mentioned O'Shea & Fletcher it was Randall,
As for giving him a chance, the comparison with Fletcher is uncomparable as Fketcher was a youth product whereas Berbatov was an expensive signing at age 27, if your youth products dont produce then they don't get played.
If you buy experienced talent for big money, it's not outlandish to expect quick results. Maybe not immediately but certainly more than two full seasons.
Whilst we're not Real or Barca, a lot of football teams would sever ties with the misfiring after that sort of period, and let's get it right Fergue was in the market for a new forward lady summer.
Is that your way of implying that he was only in the market for a new forward so as to get rid of Berbatov? Fergie was in the market for Berbatov when we had Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo - in a season where Tevez had quite a good return on goals. And more to your point - he was in the market for one particular big name forward - Villa. For me it meant SAF wants to have up his sleeve at least 3 forwards that will give him a fair return on goals - he had no clue that Chicha would give us what he has this season.
and he got it, Hernandez
Just because he was in the market for another striker, doesn't mean he was about to get rid of Berbatov
When we won the double in 99 we had 4 excellent forwards, Cole, Yorke, Sheringham and Ole
We bought Chico way back in May 2010 before the World Cup as well as extending Michael Owen's contract, he was eyeing up another striker post World Cup too lads, make no mistake about it...
Is that your way of implying that he was only in the market for a new forward so as to get rid of Berbatov? Fergie was in the market for Berbatov when we had Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo - in a season where Tevez had quite a good return on goals. And more to your point - he was in the market for one particular big name forward - Villa. For me it meant SAF wants to have up his sleeve at least 3 forwards that will give him a fair return on goals - he had no clue that Chicha would give us what he has this season.
We might have sold Berb, we might have kept him but either way he was definitely into getting a new forward, wasn't he?
Berbatov's position at United was under threat...
We might have sold Berb, we might have kept him but either way he was definitely into getting a new forward, wasn't he?
Berbatov's position at United was under threat...
No it wasn't.
No it wasn't.
Why wasn't it? He had underperformed for the previous two years and as I have pointed out, Ferguson looked to retaining Owen, brought in Hernandez who was always gonna be a prospect project and not expected to do so well so quickly and was looking at bringing in a David Villa or Benzema - that to me suggests 34 goal Wayne Rooney would also stay on so Berbatov would be the weakest link....goodbye!
Why wasn't it? He had underperformed for the previous two years and as I have pointed out, Ferguson looked to retaining Owen, brought in Hernandez who was always gonna be a prospect project and not expected to do so well so quickly and was looking at bringing in a David Villa or Benzema - that to me suggests 34 goal Wayne Rooney would also stay on so Berbatov would be the weakest link....goodbye!
Why on earth would SAF want to offload Berba and keep Owen?
He was never going anywhere.
Why on earth would SAF want to offload Berba and keep Owen?
He was never going anywhere.
Because Owen was on a two year deal, Berbatov was underperforming the previous two years, that's why.
10/10 for persevering with this Scoreboard but people won't see your point of view until Berbatov retires, leaves on a free or is sold. Then most people will probably say, "Yeah, he had his moments but overall, he wasn't that great. Not Fergie's best ever purchase, at any rate. We should have bought Torres when he was good."
Because Owen was on a two year deal, Berbatov was underperforming the previous two years, that's why.
And Owen was setting the league alite?
Bottom line is that SAF would wanna keep the better player. Not even you could try to claim that would be Owen. SAF isn't an idiot.
10/10 for persevering with this Scoreboard but people won't see your point of view until Berbatov retires, leaves on a free or is sold. Then most people will probably say, "Yeah, he had his moments but overall, he wasn't that great. Not Fergie's best ever purchase, at any rate. We should have bought Torres when he was good."
I KNOW that's going to happen, as soon as he leaves the majority will denounce him as less than successful, as soon as he's no longer a Manchester United player he's dropped in opinion ten-fold.
Here's the thing though mate, I personally think I'm making some valid points and after all, this is a forum; I'm not simply going to say 'OK, I agree, Berbatov is great because he's smoother than Sammy the Silkworm's satin sheets' because he's not, he's just not.
If people want this to be a thread solely on kissing Berbatov's ring-piece then they'll be disappointed because I'll continue making my feelings heard until such time as I see fit...
10/10 for persevering with this Scoreboard but people won't see your point of view until Berbatov retires, leaves on a free or is sold. Then most people will probably say, "Yeah, he had his moments but overall, he wasn't that great. Not Fergie's best ever purchase, at any rate. We should have bought Torres when he was good."
Most people are idiots, and have no idea what they're talking about.
And Owen was setting the league alite?
Bottom line is that SAF would wanna keep the better player. Not even you could try to claim that would be Owen. SAF isn't an idiot.
Who's the better player? One who actually scores in the Champions League or one who doesn't? A former European Player of the Year or an underachieving expensive flop who's revered by the twenty year olds because he's good on FIFA Playstation and can trap the ball nicely?
Who's the better player? One who actually scores in the Champions League or one who doesn't? A former European Player of the Year or an underachieving expensive flop who's revered by the twenty year olds because he's good on FIFA Playstation and can trap the ball nicely?
If you really think Owen is a better player than Berbatov we have nothing left to discuss. I'm not gonna waste my time here.
You clearly have something personal against Berba by the way, the way you're describing him sounds like a man with an agenda.
evra
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Who's the better player? One who actually scores in the Champions League or one who doesn't? A former European Player of the Year or an underachieving expensive flop who's revered by the twenty year olds because he's good on FIFA Playstation and can trap the ball nicely?
Berbatov hth.
If you really think Owen is a better player than Berbatov we have nothing left to discuss. I'm not gonna waste my time here.
I'm asking YOU mate, who's the better player and explain to me why he's the better player and in what capacity.
We can have a game of Top Trumps if you want, who's the better finisher, who's quicker, who's more defensive, who's taller, who's got nicer legs etc...
Lance Uppercut
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It is blatantly obvious that Johnno is trolling at this point.
Red Defence
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I'd say that's blatantly correct and has been for some time now.
Beats me why people keep replying.
75 posts in here in the last 24 hours...time give it a rest now.
Beats me why people keep replying.
75 posts in here in the last 24 hours...time give it a rest now.
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Who's the better player? One who actually scores in the Champions League or one who doesn't? A former European Player of the Year or an underachieving expensive flop who's revered by the twenty year olds because he's good on FIFA Playstation and can trap the ball nicely?
Owen has only scored in the Champions League against shit teams. I'm sure if Berbatov played regularly against that sort of opposition in Europe he woudl score a few goals. As for 'a former European Player of the Year', Bobby Charlton is a former European Player of the Year, do we bring him out to strengthen our midfield next week? No, because he's nowhere near as good a footballer as he once was, neither is Owen (although he is much closer than Charlton!). Berbatov has scored more goals than Owen in the last 5 seasons in a row including this one, Ferguson continually selects Berbatov over Owen, he is clearly a better player in the here and now.
I KNOW that's going to happen, as soon as he leaves the majority will denounce him as less than successful, as soon as he's no longer a Manchester United player he's dropped in opinion ten-fold.
Here's the thing though mate, I personally think I'm making some valid points and after all, this is a forum; I'm not simply going to say 'OK, I agree, Berbatov is great because he's smoother than Sammy the Silkworm's satin sheets' because he's not, he's just not.
If people want this to be a thread solely on kissing Berbatov's ring-piece then they'll be disappointed because I'll continue making my feelings heard until such time as I see fit...
Fair enough. Some people just see criticising "one of your own" as tantamount to treason and will defend any United player to the hilt.
Personally, I don't have a problem with it any more than looking enviously across at our rivals and thinking, "I wish he played for us instead".
The funny thing is, I used to think that about Berba when he was at Spurs!
I think Fergie just likes the option of Berba because he does things no one else can do. The problem for some of us is that he doesn't do them often enough and even when he does, they don't necessarily lead to a goal or even a more advantageous situation.
Possibly the question that needs to be addressed is: if we got rid of Berba, who would take his place that adds something different to what we already have? And the options fall quite drastically.
Overall, I am of the opinion that Berba hasn't done enough since joining us. Yes, he's scored some goals this season but he is playing for the best team in England and a team that tends to get to the latter stages of all competitions. I just don't think he has done anything any half-decent striker couldn't have done.
His heading is awful, his positional sense is awful and his attitude is often awful.
Yes, he might love being at United and he might be 100% committed to the cause and wanting to do well with every ounce of his being but so would I if I wore the United shirt... I'd still be shit though.
It is blatantly obvious that Johnno is trolling at this point.
I don't know what that means, can you explain it to me?
I thought trolling was a youtube thing when you left nasty messages, whom I am being nasty to?
Randall Flagg
Worst of the best
Berba and his loyal minions
Owen has only scored in the Champions League against shit teams. I'm sure if Berbatov played regularly against that sort of opposition in Europe he woudl score a few goals. As for 'a former European Player of the Year', Bobby Charlton is a former European Player of the Year, do we bring him out to strengthen our midfield next week? No, because he's nowhere near as good a footballer as he once was, neither is Owen (although he is much closer than Charlton!). Berbatov has scored more goals than Owen in the last 5 seasons in a row including this one, Ferguson continually selects Berbatov over Owen, he is clearly a better player in the here and now.
Scoring a hat-trick against the German champions away in Germany isn't exactly a common occurrence for English team's strikers, check the records brother and also you're forgetting The Berb's only goals for us in Europe were versus Celtic and Aalborg, I think Wolfsburg hold prestige over both teams...
evra
Full Member
Scoring a hat-trick against the German champions away in Germany isn't exactly a common occurrence for English team's strikers, check the records brother and also you're forgetting The Berb's only goals for us in Europe were versus Celtic and Aalborg, I think Wolfsburg hold prestige over both teams...
This is retarded, Berbatov was an integral part of the side that got to the final of the Champions League with the lowly Leverkursen, he's proven himself on that stage.
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Scoring a hat-trick against the German champions away in Germany isn't exactly a common occurrence for English team's strikers, check the records brother and also you're forgetting The Berb's only goals for us in Europe were versus Celtic and Aalborg, I think Wolfsburg hold prestige over both teams...
Of more relevance than where they finished in 2008-09 (ie. as Champions) is where they finished in the season he scored the hat-trick - they finished in 8th position, conceding the joint 5th highest amount of goals. The reason English clubs' strikers don't commonly score against German Champions is that German Champions are normally much better than Wolfsburg.
Fair enough. Some people just see criticising "one of your own" as tantamount to treason and will defend any United player to the hilt.
Personally, I don't have a problem with it any more than looking enviously across at our rivals and thinking, "I wish he played for us instead".
The funny thing is, I used to think that about Berba when he was at Spurs!
I think Fergie just likes the option of Berba because he does things no one else can do. The problem for some of us is that he doesn't do them often enough and even when he does, they don't necessarily lead to a goal or even a more advantageous situation.
Possibly the question that needs to be addressed is: if we got rid of Berba, who would take his place that adds something different to what we already have? And the options fall quite drastically.
Overall, I am of the opinion that Berba hasn't done enough since joining us. Yes, he's scored some goals this season but he is playing for the best team in England and a team that tends to get to the latter stages of all competitions. I just don't think he has done anything any half-decent striker couldn't have done.
His heading is awful, his positional sense is awful and his attitude is often awful.
Yes, he might love being at United and he might be 100% committed to the cause and wanting to do well with every ounce of his being but so would I if I wore the United shirt... I'd still be shit though.
It goes back to this force-field/protective bubble most United fans place in him, again it;s fine to slag the back legs off Wes Brown, Jonny Evans, Fletcher and even Giggs (who has been criticised several times down the years even when I was a sixteen year old) but not Berbatov despite him being far less consistent than these lot mentioned have.
I think it's down to the money thing, it really is; no-one likes to admit overall he has been a failure, certainly for the first two seasons as he didn't bring what he was meant to. Is it all his fault? No, Fergie has to take some of the slack for it as he's not done what he wanted to.
I'll fully admit, a thirty million quid striker would usually thrill me, I'm quite often as big a muppet as any transfer-git, but there was something about it that didn't seem right to me, he seemed so gratuitous, not unnecessary but gratuitous, the attack wasn't broken and didn't need fixing.
This hasn't been the basis of my opnion as I was pleased as punch when Berb got the two goals versus Aalborg to get off the mark and when he started doing those little twirly-wirlys versus West Ham, I thought we were on a winner but then he started his inconsistency tricks; that end to his first season was almost abysmal, yes it was compounded by the semi-final penalty trickle at Howard, but he was dreadful in that last third...
This is retarded, Berbatov was an integral part of the side that got to the final of the Champions League with the lowly Leverkursen, he's proven himself on that stage.
I thought what he did ten years ago wasn't applicable as Owen's European Player of the Year isn't?
What have they done for United? I DON'T CARE what they did for Liverpool, Real, Bayer or Spurs, I care what they do for us and Owen has been ravaged by injury yet still looks bang on in Europe (where it counts) whereas your man doesn't look like he could score in an Amsterdam brothel or anywhere else in Europe!!!
Randall Flagg
Worst of the best
This is retarded, Berbatov was an integral part of the side that got to the final of the Champions League with the lowly Leverkursen, he's proven himself on that stage.
Think he only got 2 goals in their run to the final. Not sure how many games he played in though
In fact he wasnt an automatic starter for them in his early Leverkusen days. It was the season after their 3 runner up places when he began to settle
Just checked he did get 2 goals in their route to the final. One was in a meaningless final group game in which they were already through the other was a big goal in the knockout stages against Liverpool
Of more relevance than where they finished in 2008-09 (ie. as Champions) is where they finished in the season he scored the hat-trick - they finished in 8th position, conceding the joint 5th highest amount of goals. The reason English clubs' strikers don't commonly score against German Champions is that German Champions are normally much better than Wolfsburg.
OK it doesn't count then, so let's write Berbatov's hat-trick versus Birmingham off because they're quite lowly or his five goals against Blackburn because it's irrelevant, this is the logic I'm hearing...
We've played far worse teams and we've not had many hat-tricks in Europe over many years, count them, there's not many...
evra
Full Member
Well I would suggest that we tend to play 451 in the CL which is a system Berbatov is not suited to, therefore his opportunities have been limited in the CL. When we have played 442 in Europe we are up against teams that have finished top or near the top of their respective leagues. Our central midfield has shown to be incapable of functioning in a two man midfield against good sides, therefore the service to our forwards has been very poor. Typically Berbatov will go deep to get involved in the play but this obviously leaves him out of position when we try to mount an attack.
I've explained some of the mitigating factors that explain why he hasn't been as successful in the CL for utd as he has been in the league.
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