Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances

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MrK said:
It has been dry for a while, but when you consider that out of six games he didn't score in since Blackpool, only two of them were the full 90 mins, one was 64 mins, and in the other three matches he was subbed on at 66 mins, 76 mins (and assisted a goal for Rooney) and 69 mins respectively. So while it may appear to be over a month and a half of a drought, or 6 matches, he's actually played less than three and half matches worth of minutes - you can't score if you're not on the pitch. Three and a half matches is not that big a deal.
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What you're saying is certainly valid but I'd also like to point out the same fans use these facts to point put the ineptitude of Tevez and Owen but in reverse, using these appearances, albeit short as appearances in which they don't score, yeah?
What I'd also like to say about your point is the reason Berb wasn't on the pitch was because he wasn't scoring in the games prior.
 
redwhiteblack said:
It was FAR more attacking dude.

Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez are all incredibly direct attackers. Teams were very fearful of us during this period. They aren't now. Because we don't attack with anywhere near the same single-minded ferocity we used to.

Berbatov is class, but he is decidedly indirect for a striker, let alone compared to those 3 talismanic strikers.

Digressing now, and nothing to do with Berbatov, but we've been missing something since those 2 left - and I expect it to be addressed in the summer with two outfield signings.
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We've scored more goals each season since those three left though.
 
redwhiteblack said:
It was FAR more attacking dude.

Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez are all incredibly direct attackers. Teams were very fearful of us during this period. They aren't now. Because we don't attack with anywhere near the same single-minded ferocity we used to.

Berbatov is class, but he is decidedly indirect for a striker, let alone compared to those 3 talismanic strikers.

Digressing now, and nothing to do with Berbatov, but we've been missing something since those 2 left - and I expect it to be addressed in the summer with two outfield signings.
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I think you're confusing "more attacking" with quality going forward.
 
SharkyMcShark said:
No. In the Milan games we had Saha and Solskjaer come off the bench (away, we didn't use subs in the first game).

The way we play one up we don't have an apt backup no, but when we play one up now it tends to be a bit kick and rush. You need to be good in the air, not easily bullied off course, be good with your back to goal, and have exceptional off the ball movement. None of our strikers apart from Rooney tick those boxes. Ronaldo could do it previously, as could Saha. Berbatov isn't the best in the air and doesn't have outstanding off the ball movement. Hernandez isn't great with his back to goal and is still pushed off the ball quite easily by centrebacks (he doesnt crumple to the ground in a heap so its not particularly obvious).

Playing 5 in midfield has more to do with our midfield compared to others than our strikers.
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Both Ole and Saha had injuries going into the home-stretch in 2007 and we were holding a 3-2 lead going to the San Siro, Fergie was trying to mIntain the lead knowing Milan would attack and we had several defensive injuries.
As for our forwards strength in 2007/08, Rioney was solid, Ronaldo is much harder than he looks and Tevez is wider than he is tall, one goal against Wigan was scored on pure strength alone.
 
On the topic of why Pea is getting gametime over Berbatov atm - I would imagine that would be obvious to anyone with their wits about them...

1. Pea is in better scoring form
2. We have a 3 pronged campaign reaching it's climax so lets rest one striker while at the same giving another (young) striker valuable experience for the run in.
3. Pea is in better scoring form
 
SharkyMcShark said:
We've scored more goals each season since those three left though.
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And we've also rescinded the league trophy since both have gone, we've also lost two match winners.
It wouldn't be too wild to claim with either or both still with us, we'd have have a few points better off in the league and good for a few more goals in Europe last season.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
What you're saying is certainly valid but I'd also like to point out the same fans use these facts to point put the ineptitude of Tevez and Owen but in reverse, using these appearances, albeit short as appearances in which they don't score, yeah?
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Ok. They're wrong.

Scoreboard Red said:
What I'd also like to say about your point is the reason Berb wasn't on the pitch was because he wasn't scoring in the games prior.
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It was 2 games, 154 mins, before he was started on the bench for three games in a row. 154 mins after he had scored two goals against Blackpool to help us to a win after being 2-0 down at half time. Which was the game after he scored a hat trick against Birmingham. You don't get benched for not scoring when you've only been dry for a game and two thirds - that's being benched for fatigue, injury or tactical reasons.
 
MrK said:
Ok. They're wrong.



It was 2 games, 154 mins, before he was started on the bench for three games in a row. 154 mins after he had scored two goals against Blackpool to help us to a win after being 2-0 down at half time. Which was the game after he scored a hat trick against Birmingham. You don't get benched for not scoring when you've only been dry for a game and two thirds - that's being benched for fatigue, injury or tactical reasons.
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I agree tactically; tactically, Berbatov isn't trusted to play in important games, that's by Fergie not by me.
Law of averages state after 18 CL games he's due a goal in my view but Fergie doesn't agree.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
And we've also rescinded the league trophy since both have gone, we've also lost two match winners.
It wouldn't be too wild to claim with either or both still with us, we'd have have a few points better off in the league and good for a few more goals in Europe last season.
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If either were still with us last season, we would've won the league, without question.
 
I think we're still trying to work out how to use him properly in Europe.

Before he came here, he had a pretty decent goal-scoring record in Europe, 28 goals in 52 appearances in fact.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
And we've also rescinded the league trophy since both have gone, we've also lost two match winners.
It wouldn't be too wild to claim with either or both still with us, we'd have have a few points better off in the league and good for a few more goals in Europe last season.
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you're not comparing the loss of Ronaldo to Tevez though, are you?
 
EricaNo7 said:
you're not comparing the loss of Ronaldo to Tevez though, are you?
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Depends what context you're talking about; losing Ronaldo was the biggest player to leave the club since George Best in my view, one in a generation but by the same token, Tevez was hardly a Bellion.
He's shown he's clearly one of the best players in the Premiership.
 
Stobzilla said:
Berbatov has rescued 6 points for us this season late on in games we looked like drawing. Without them we are a point behind and a game in front of Arsenal.

It is worth noting not only just the amount of goals he is scoring but the importance of the goals also.
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MrK said:
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Well if you remove the games he didn't even play in, which I think is only fair, and indicate the games he played less than a half hour in (with a *), it doesn't look too bad at all. He had a bad drought in Oct/Nov, but aside from that he's scored very regularly when he's been given regular starts.
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MrK said:
It has been dry for a while, but when you consider that out of six games he didn't score in since Blackpool, only two of them were the full 90 mins, one was 64 mins, and in the other three matches he was subbed on at 66 mins, 76 mins (and assisted a goal for Rooney) and 69 mins respectively. So while it may appear to be over a month and a half of a drought, or 6 matches, he's actually played less than three and half matches worth of minutes - you can't score if you're not on the pitch. Three and a half matches is not that big a deal.
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When debating whether he has had a good season on a whole surely you have to take into consideration the games he was injured or dropped? Maybe the fact that he hasn't been on the pitch as you mentioned, despite usually not being injured is an indictment much more damning than anything Scoreboard Red has stated.

Judging by match by match performances V. Persie would arguably be the best PL striker over the last 5 years, but due to injuries/lack of matches he hasn't been anywhere near.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Depends what context you're talking about; losing Ronaldo was the biggest player to leave the club since George Best in my view, one in a generation but by the same token, Tevez was hardly a Bellion.
He's shown he's clearly one of the best players in the Premiership.
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Has he really? He was excellent last season for them, granted. But this season he's been average since a good start, and his last season with us was hardly a great one. Very ordinary in fact (Just the 5 goals in 18 PL starts).
 
esmufc11 said:
Has he really? He was excellent last season for them, granted. But this season he's been average since a good start, and his last season with us was hardly a great one. Very ordinary in fact (Just the 5 goals in 18 PL starts).
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Yeah but Elvis we've been over this a million times, the reason he was 'poor' was because he'd get limited games, even when he managed the odd goal he was still overlooked for Berbatov despite the previous season when he was very good, as he was for West Ham, for Corinthians and for Boca and now for City; and if he's average this season then you're basically admitting Berbatov is too as he's only gotten one more goal.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Yeah but Elvis we've been over this a million times, the reason he was 'poor' was because he'd get limited games, even when he managed the odd goal he was still overlooked for Berbatov despite the previous season when he was very good, as he was for West Ham, for Corinthians and for Boca and now for City; and if he's average this season then you're basically admitting Berbatov is too as he's only gotten one more goal.
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He was very good for West Ham? How long before he scored his first again?

Excuses. You say the reason Berbatov is being overlooked is because he isn't good enough (Alex Ferguson agrees with this), but when Tevez was being overlooked it's because....what?

End of the day he started 18 PL games, in a team which was better than the one Berbatov finds himself in, and scored 5 goals.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He held the ball up better than Hernandez, which helped us retain possession better in the opposition half.
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He didn't actually. Statistically Berbatov got the ball 3 more times than Hernandez, but his passing rate (50%) was far below Hernandez's (100%). Berbatov actually led us to lose more possession than Hernandez.

Berbatov passed the ball 10 times, 5 of which were to a Bolton player. Hernandez had 7 in 7 to a United player.

United were better in the second half, (not that much better really) but it had feck all to do with Berbatov, as like Hernandez in the first half, he was barely involved.

We were better in the second half because other players improved their games from the first half, most notably Carrick.

Credit to him for getting the goal, but to say he led us to having more possession or led us to being better on the ball is wrong.
 
esmufc11 said:
He was very good for West Ham? How long before he scored his first again?

Excuses. You say the reason Berbatov is being overlooked is because he isn't good enough (Alex Ferguson agrees with this), but when Tevez is being overlooked it's because....what?
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I would say agreed, Fergie persisted with Berbatov and Tevez left but even after two years at United, Berbatov was under-achieving whereas Tevez was thriving at City.
Should United have paid £47million for Tevez? Should they feck but what I heard is we could have had him for £25million, which in the current market seems money well spent.
It's clear Fergie thought we needed another striker of substance as he was going for David Villa and Karim Benzema the past couple of years. Had we been successful I dare say Berb's days at Utd would've been numbered and I suspect had we bought another big money player not many would've wept for his departure.
 
Tevez is an excellent player, as is Berbatov. But to be fair, Tevez moved a year and a half ago, why are we still arguing about it?
 
Scoreboard Red said:
I accept responsibility for it; I was sucked in by Feeky but then again I shouldn't not reply if I believe my views have merit.
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Fair enough Johnno!

Would your time not be better served arguing the merits of Hernandez or Rooney over Berbatov rather than Tevez over Berbatov???
 
Name Changed said:
Fair enough Johnno!

Would your time not be better served arguing the merits of Hernandez or Rooney over Berbatov rather than Tevez over Berbatov???
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Well, to be fair I was! I have been discussing Chico over Berb and it's a big thread but if you go back a page or two, you'll see I have then someone will bring up 'what about your bumboy Tevez?' and me being me, I'll argue my cause.
 
I'm astonished at the thread, I really am.

Berbatov has clearly played a massive role in getting us to where we are this season. Even in games where he hasn't found the net, his all-round game has been pretty strong.

He's scored vital goals as well. I don't buy into this "he doesn't score in big games" nonsense. The goal at the weekend was monumental.

Agendas.
 
Feed Me said:
I'm astonished at the thread, I really am.

Berbatov has clearly played a massive role in getting us to where we are this season. Even in games where he hasn't found the net, his all-round game has been pretty strong.

He's scored vital goals as well. I don't buy into this "he doesn't score in big games" nonsense. The goal at the weekend was monumental.

Agendas.
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What agenda would I have? I have supported United for 31 years and have never wanted a player to do badly for us and never will.
I am saying how I see it.
And as I've said, three points are three points but the best three are the ones gained versus your title challengers which he has had little input in doing unlike previous strikers like Eric, Cole, Yorke, Ruud, Rooney and Ronaldo.
 
But that's pretty irrevelant Johnno. What counts is that he's scored when we've needed him too, and what different does it make if he's scoring against our title challengers, in this case Arsenal? We've dropped more points to smaller teams then the teams directly beneath us.

What it comes down to is that he's having a very good season. He's the top scorer for club and league, and whether the games have been against top opposition or bottom, he's scored vital goals and won crucial games for us. It's really not hard to recognize this, not at all.

The problem is Johnno is you have to look really hard to find evidence that Berbatov is somehow not performing to a high standard. You can quote 8 games, even if the actual playing time of that is below 4, of whatever, but that didn't stop us praising Rooney to the heavens each season when he went on a run of the same or more games. It's rare to see a striker keep up a ratio that high, especially so when you are being dropped and rested.

I would be embarrased if your opinion was that of a rival fan, but I could put it off as maybe a bitter approach, but it's just astounding to see a United fan unable to recognize the important of Berbatov this season, and try so hard to discredit him.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
What agenda would I have? I have supported United for 31 years and have never wanted a player to do badly for us and never will.
I am saying how I see it.
And as I've said, three points are three points but the best three are the ones gained versus your title challengers which he has had little input in doing unlike previous strikers like Eric, Cole, Yorke, Ruud, Rooney and Ronaldo.
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I've had a look at the past few pages and I've noticed comments, from you, along the lines of Nani is the one who should be getting the credit for the goal. Sorry, that's complete and utter hogwash. It's an irrelevance whether it was an easy finish or not - he was in the right place, at the right time to put the ball away. Had Hernandez have followed that in, we'd have all been talking about his striking instincts. It may be an easy finish in the end, but that's reward for doing a fundamental of the game - following the shot in, in case of a rebound.

Berbatov was also instrumental in stepping up against Blackpool - a game where we were well and truly on the ropes. He actually lost his place in the side shortly after that, having not done a great deal wrong. He's not really played that much in the last month or two, yet you've been trotting out misleading stats about how many games he's gone without scoring.

Given that Ferguson and Phelan were somewhat childishly having a very public laugh at his expense against Marseille, he could have conceivably have thrown a strop. But no, as per usual, he has had no complaints, he hasn't rocked the boat. He's got on with his job, and when called upon, he scored a goal that will likely be vital in us winning the league.
 
How the fecks it irrelevant? Of course it's relevant, we need him to produce against Arsenal, City, Chelsea, Liverpool but he's not done. We need someone to take the reigns, in the past we've had players step up like Rooney and Ronaldo etc take hd of things when we look dicey, Berbatov NEVER had in a top of the table clash so what you're saying us bollocks, I seem to be really pulling at your heart strings here mate, you're saying I'm no fan for criticizing Berb? That's bollocks, you're clearly just blinded by your faith and obviously one of the 'Fergie sign him up' crew who now calls Tevez a cnut now he's at another club.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
How the fecks it irrelevant? Of course it's relevant, we need him to produce against Arsenal, City, Chelsea, Liverpool but he's not done. We need someone to take the reigns, in the past we've had players step up like Rooney and Ronaldo etc take hd of things when we look dicey, Berbatov NEVER had in a top of the table clash so what you're saying us bollocks, I seem to be really pulling at your heart strings here mate, you're saying I'm no fan for criticizing Berb? That's bollocks, you're clearly just blinded by your faith and obviously one of the 'Fergie sign him up' crew who now calls Tevez a cnut now he's at another club.
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The only one of those teams you list that Rooney has consistently done the business against is Arsenal.

A goal is a goal - irrespective of who it is scored against. You can win the league with an average record against your rivals as long as you are a strong flat track bully, ie batter the rest.
 
Feed Me - it's funny how us United fans, every other fan than Chelseas and the media are criticizing Torres for not scoring in seven or eight appearances ( of which he's appeared as sub or come off well before the 90 mins) yet Berb is clearly still on form in your eyes.
 
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