Sorry mate, I should have said I was only comparing with Tevez because he's the only other player who rivals Berbatov for goals scored this season, as you mentioned. If Berb scored in 10 games and Tevez scored in 11, I didn't feel it was worth checking out how many games players who got 10 or 11 in total scored in.
Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances
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Sorry mate, I should have said I was only comparing with Tevez because he's the only other player who rivals Berbatov for goals scored this season, as you mentioned. If Berb scored in 10 games and Tevez scored in 11, I didn't feel it was worth checking out how many games players who got 10 or 11 in total scored in.
Berbatov has rescued 6 points for us this season late on in games we looked like drawing. Without them we are a point behind and a game in front of Arsenal.
It is worth noting not only just the amount of goals he is scoring but the importance of the goals also.
It is worth noting not only just the amount of goals he is scoring but the importance of the goals also.
Good lord.Your bumboy Tévez hasn't scored for 7 games, that last goal being an 84th minute goal in a 5-0 FA Cup home win over third division Notts County. He's scored in a whole one more game than Berbatov in the league, and they're level if you discount Newcastle where Tévez's sole goal was a penalty. In fact, discounting penalties, Berbatov's on 20 goals in the league, and Tévez 14. Despite Tévez having played over 250 minutes more.
You might say it's absurd to exclude penalties (never mind that Berbatov is still significantly better including them), but city have a few specialists who would achieve about the same rate as Tévez would. It's even more absurd excluding 5 goals just because they came in the same game, I didn't hear anyone say it about Andy Cole, or Rooney and van Nistelrooy when they got 4 in a game.
To say Berbatov hasn't had a good season overall when he's 2 goals clear in the Golden Boot, has almost twice as many goals as the player in third place and is fourth top scorer in the major leagues in Europe behind Ronaldo, Messi and Di Natale is frankly absurd and shows your agenda. He's had a brilliant season, where he's been usually very good, sometimes scintillating and only very occasionally poor. I don't think you'll find a single person who will say that he hasn't had a good season overall, which says it all as this forum was full of Berba-bashers back last May.
I'm not taking away his goals, I'm showing that without these particular goals, his otherwise impressive record is ordinary and differs to that of Rooney last season, Ronaldo in 2007/08 or Ruud in a handful of seasons in which their goals were widely spread out and/or consistent throughout the term culminating in a 'consistent' and prolific season.
Berbatov has been neither consistent and has been prolific in two portions of the season with big gaps in-between.
Even Ronaldo in 2007/08 didn't score until October, but from then on he didn't stop and worth noting he scored only one hat-trick out of 42 goals. I'm not suggesting Berbatov should be scoring 40+ goals as that is freakish, but I'd definitely prefer him to score one or two every three games in reality rather than average one in two but actually rack these up in bulk over a few games then go several games without scoring.
He's scored more goals than anyone in the premier league without taking free kicks or penalties, all have been from open play. No one is saying he is having as good a season as Rooney or Ronaldo (or he'd be one of the best players in the world, surely? And no one thinks that) but he's been one of our best players this season in a side that is top at the moment. Is that not a fair enough assessment?
Sound mate, no worries - as you will see from Feeky's response(s), the controversy over my prior Tevez comments are used to stir the pot, as allegedly I'm his bum-boy when it's clear how good a player he is and was for us, yet it's not controversial from others have suggested they'd love to have had Torres play for United; see what I mean?
I'm curious to see if you subtract those games he scored 5, 3, 3, 2 & 2 in then provide his tally - this is my point; yes he scored in these games but there have been plenty he's not scored in when maybe the love could have been shared resulting in us being perhaps highe ron points than we are.
That's a very fair assessment and one I think no-one can argue with, but I am arguing he's not been good this year? All I am saying is he hasn't been good overall, he has had some very good games obviously, but he's been missing in plenty others.
Let me state this; he's on 20 goals, Tevez is next on 19...then where's everyone else? They're miles away.
Have most of the strikers had a good year this year? Drogba has underachieved, Torres is well off form, Rooney's been poor until around January, Bent hasn't hit the same heights he's capable of, Spurs strikers are way off the pace with their midfield providing most of the goals, Everton usually have a striker up there but not this year...
Dare I say it? It's almost as if nearly EVERYBODY's been average this year, it really does.
Again it may sound like I'm knocking him but I'm saying what I'm seeing here; has he been so good? Or has he just been much better than he has for us?
There's no-one from United, with the exception of Van Der Sar or Nani, who I think should make the Premier League Team of the Year at this point in time in my view.
I'm stunned we're top half the time to be honest...
Your bumboy Tévez hasn't scored for 7 games, that last goal being an 84th minute goal in a 5-0 FA Cup home win over third division Notts County. He's scored in a whole one more game than Berbatov in the league, and they're level if you discount Newcastle where Tévez's sole goal was a penalty. In fact, discounting penalties, Berbatov's on 20 goals in the league, and Tévez 14. Despite Tévez having played over 250 minutes more.
You might say it's absurd to exclude penalties (never mind that Berbatov is still significantly better including them), but city have a few specialists who would achieve about the same rate as Tévez would. It's even more absurd excluding 5 goals just because they came in the same game, I didn't hear anyone say it about Andy Cole, or Rooney and van Nistelrooy when they got 4 in a game.
To say Berbatov hasn't had a good season overall when he's 2 goals clear in the Golden Boot, has almost twice as many goals as the player in third place and is fourth top scorer in the major leagues in Europe behind Ronaldo, Messi and Di Natale is frankly absurd and shows your agenda. He's had a brilliant season, where he's been usually very good, sometimes scintillating and only very occasionally poor. I don't think you'll find a single person who will say that he hasn't had a good season overall, which says it all as this forum was full of Berba-bashers back last May.
If anyone says he's had a good season OVERALL then they're either lying or are allowing the brilliant hat-tricks sway their decision as he's not been good overall, he's been poor in spells and I have no agenda, I just say it as I see it which was he wasn't even considered to start the Bolton match and was lucky to play were it not for Wes Brown's injury.
There have been stunning performances and there have been typically bland ones and whilst he's had a good season, he's certainly not had a great one and has been inconsistent; otherwise he would have been playing up until the 46th minute on Saturday, yeah?
Johnno, I think it holds good for every player, except maybe Messi or Ronaldo.
Can you rephrase that, I don't understand mate.
Who would you have up front, then, seeing as nearly everybody has been average? (And I'd have VDS, Nani, Vidic and Berbatov in a team of the year so far.)
Anyone But Berba, it seems.
Yeah probably Vidic actually, there have been several games he's been a monster in and I know we've missed him of late, so yeah Vidic too.
Who would I have upfront? Rooney and Hernandez, I thought Chico was unlucky to have been replaced at HT due to the Brown injury but his replacement got the goal of course.
It's nice to see Owen (nearly) coming on, I've said for a while that he might be off in the summer but I think Michael Owen might just have one big goal left in him of note and his experience at this time in the season is vital; having him, Valencia, possibly Anderson and with Vidic and hopefully Rio back in the couple of weeks we'll be going into the league, FA Cup and European games in a strong position.
Staying on topic, I do think Nani and VDS have been good, Vidic as you rightly pointed out but our midfield have been average with the odd performance by Scholes here and there, Fletcher hasn't been able to add to his improving form over the last few years and obviously Valencia was out most the year.
Berbatov's improved but still not got the consistency I want to see, I think most are impressed he's more consistent and scoring lots of goals but I think that masks the overall story as Fergie's benched him AGAIN for the bigger matches showing his lack of faith in him.
I'm impressed with Fabio recently, he was also coming in behind Berbatov to follow-up Nani's shot when the Bolton players fell asleep, nice to see that instinct from him.
Evra's been consistent without being great but still a defender I'd put my faith in as one of first on the team-sheet.
Rooney? Well, he was gash until January and we know his personal problems but hopefully that run of form will be the worst we'll see in his United career and hopefully he can finish on 10-12 goals...
As per below Chief, and I won't let your views on him (earlier in this thread I noticed you said 'dear God, I love that man' or words to that effect) get in the way of my response as you're clearly un-neutral in this discussion...
What a crime.
I'd say the same goes for you and your irrational hate. Berbatov is one of the few reasons we're still in this title race.
You misunderstood. Who would you have up front in PL's team of the year, not our team.
He'd probably have to be by proxy; he's the top scorer and I'd have Tevez in too as he's next top scorer, no-one is close to these two in terms of goals so yeah he's be in the Premier League Team of the Year but I'd like to add that these two strikers have probably been the weaker two leading forwards for several years.
But the answer to your question is for the Premier League Team, yes (unless someone scores about ten in the next eight matches).
RVP is probably the only other who can knock one of these two out of it if he scores a few on the run-in, he's played well despite his shortened season.
If you subtract those games he'll have scored 5 goals, but what would be the reasoning behind doing that? I can understand the curiosity at seeing how his stats look with the exceptional five goals in one game removed, but why would you discount every occasion he's scored more than one? Do the same with Tevez and he's also left on 5 goals, but that doesn't actually tell us anything.
Well, again I don't care about Tevez or anyone else in the scoring charts, what I'm trying to point out are the games he didn't score in of which there are plenty.
Have a look at the games we've played this year - the games Berb has scored in are in red, the ones without in black.
There's a lot more black than red and there's big patches of black, too.This is the point I'm trying to suggest, those saying he's had a good season all season are a bit off; whereas I'm not saying he was poor in every single game he didn't score in, I know from watching these games he was crap in a good deal of them...
I hope we win the league on goal difference. That would end all the nonsense about how his five goals in a game doesn't count.
Well if you remove the games he didn't even play in, which I think is only fair, and indicate the games he played less than a half hour in (with a *), it doesn't look too bad at all. He had a bad drought in Oct/Nov, but aside from that he's scored very regularly when he's been given regular starts.
Nah.
So has Hernandez and he's looked like scoring more regularly at this point in time and being trusted to play in the big games, Berbatov isn't.
That's not me by the way, this is from Alex Ferguson.
That's not me by the way, this is from Alex Ferguson.
In real big games with everyone was fit, Rooney would be the only one to start anyways
Only since Berbatov has been at the club, I'd like to add.
In years gone by, we've always played two forwards, or at least in the earlier part of the Noughties, we'd have Scholes behind Van Nistelrooy with four in midfield.
Against the likes of Roma, Milan etc we played two strikers, for most of 2007/08 European games, we played Rooney, Tevez AND Ronaldo...
I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore - of course Hernandez is having a great season, but that doesn't mean Berbatov isn't having one too. I thought this was your point...
And as we've seen, aside from a bad patch in the first half of the season Berbatov has been doing consistently well when started regularly. Also remember that during his bad patch we were playing badly on the whole, drawing with Sunderland, Bolton and West Brom in a row. Few players go through a season on top form the whole way through, but I don't think that means they haven't had a good season overall. Of course he has.
Not true.
Yes but quite often it would still only be 1 up front with Rooney shunted out wide left.
Berba and Tevez are really the only choices if you are going by goals.
But I'd like Van der Vaart and Tevez, myself.
Not true.
In 06/07 we played Rooney on his own against Milan home and away, against Chelsea in the FA Cup final, in 07/08 against Lyon home and away and Roma away (in the quarters) as well as in the Cup against Arsenal, and in the League against Arsenal and Liverpool at home and Chelsea away.
This is neglecting to mention the games in which we played him on his own against smaller sides.
No, I was pointing out Hernandez is being considered ABOVE Berbatov recently in the pecking order as it seems his partnership with Rooney benefits United more, certainly in more recent games.
You're forgetting that SECOND patch mate remember, from January on after the Blackpool game which wasn't as long as the first but another evident slump and one from which he was dropped for a few games, the big games and hopefully will recover from now he scored on Saturday.
As I've already said, of course even the most consistent performers have periods of not scoring or playing well, but these are usually just a few games, Players of the Year tend not to go nine games then seven games without a goal and not get picked for the big games for their team, do they?
Yeah but these were very, very loose formations - they were switched from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 to 4-5-1 throughout the match, the line-up on Sky or ITV or whatever would always show 4-4-2 with Ronaldo wide right and Tevez and Rooney upfront despite Ronaldo often being the furthest forward centrally, is that fair?
Was that due to injuries to Solskjaer and Saha prior to Berbatov and even Tevez's arrival?
Again, in 07/08 we had Ronaldo who was effectively a free-romaing right-sided striker and I agree about Arsenal because we had Ronaldo who backed up the strikers, now we have no Ronaldo and dare I say Tevez, we have no cover in that position, we now only have five midfielders who aren't the most creative and we have only Rooney who seems capable of that sole-striking job unless we logically play Rooney and Hernandez in a 4-4-2 or 4-4-3 with Nani supporting and three midfielders...
You seem to agree with what I say in your later part?!?!?!
I'd agree that the formation gave the option to easily switch between all formations mentioned yes as all 3 players in that front 3 could play anywhere across it.
It was still only 1 up front though.
It was far more attacking and versatile prior to the arrival of Berbatov when we played Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez - is that a fair statement?
Certainly more versatile. More attacking is debatable.
I would say there's more class and ability in Rooney, Tevez + Ronaldo than any combination of Rooney, Berbatov, Nani and Valencia.
It has been dry for a while, but when you consider that out of six games he didn't score in since Blackpool, only two of them were the full 90 mins, one was 64 mins, and in the other three matches he was subbed on at 66 mins, 76 mins (and assisted a goal for Rooney) and 69 mins respectively. So while it may appear to be over a month and a half of a drought, or 6 matches, he's actually played less than three and half matches worth of minutes - you can't score if you're not on the pitch. Three and a half matches is not that big a deal.
Alright, but now Tevez and Ronny are gone leaving Rooney and Berbatov. Would you say they've been a good partnership since 2008?
I don't.
United have looked far better when Rooney was alone upfront last season or with Hernzndez this season...
No. In the Milan games we had Saha and Solskjaer come off the bench (away, we didn't use subs in the first game).
The way we play one up we don't have an apt backup no, but when we play one up now it tends to be a bit kick and rush. You need to be good in the air, not easily bullied off course, be good with your back to goal, and have exceptional off the ball movement. None of our strikers apart from Rooney tick those boxes. Ronaldo could do it previously, as could Saha. Berbatov isn't the best in the air and doesn't have outstanding off the ball movement. Hernandez isn't great with his back to goal and is still pushed off the ball quite easily by centrebacks (he doesnt crumple to the ground in a heap so its not particularly obvious).
Playing 5 in midfield has more to do with our midfield compared to others than our strikers.
Nope.
They've rarely looked good as a front 2 in my opinion. Usually 1 plays well and the other doesn't.
It was FAR more attacking dude.
Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez are all incredibly direct attackers. Teams were very fearful of us during this period. They aren't now. Because we don't attack with anywhere near the same single-minded ferocity we used to.
Berbatov is class, but he is decidedly indirect for a striker, let alone compared to those 3 talismanic strikers.
Digressing now, and nothing to do with Berbatov, but we've been missing something since those 2 left - and I expect it to be addressed in the summer with two outfield signings.
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