Back on ignore for you. In fact why did I take you off??
Fool.
Tool.
Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances
- Thread starter Commadus
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Back on ignore for you. In fact why did I take you off??
Fool.
Tool.
Dans, has a Bulgarian ever hurt you? emotionally? psychically?
I think you are probably too young to remember what Hristo Stoichov did to United in the CL once upon a time.......
Amusing to see that Commandus and Dans, probably the two most harshest Berbatov critics on the caf have either gone completely mental or has stopped posting in this thread altogether.
You think I have stopped posting??!!
You see, I had, but then I did. For you.
You see, I had, but then I did. For you.
The Dan-baiting is a bit unnecessary tbh.
He bumped this thread to give Berbatov due credit so I don't know why it needs to turn into a witch-hunt.
He bumped this thread to give Berbatov due credit so I don't know why it needs to turn into a witch-hunt.
i think it's more a case of actually being pleased a united player is playing well.
funny that - us being united fans and all.......
ps, Dans - why not try a cube of ExLax for your constipation?
well it was very lukewarm credit, to be fair, pogue.
but yes, it was credit, i suppose.
Ah, didn't realize it was just a bump, looking at the timestamps that's very clear.
Still, it's a bit silly.
Dans, what would you say is a fair target for Berbatov this season in terms of goals, since his lack of goals in past seasons has been one of his stronger criticisms?
I can also agree with the, 'it's only been a few games' point, to a degree. Yes, it shouldn't be something we expect every single game, otherwise he will have a monster season for us, but at the same time it's very promising right? Consistency, or lack of it was a major complaint from some, so far in all his games this season he's brought on more of that, developed his general play and shown real determination to score.
Sure, we can't jump on that and say that he's going to be our best player, or that this season will be a major one for him, it's too early to tell. But at the same time, you are saying he's not going to make it, that's he's doing/going to do a Forlan, and that we shouldn't hold our breath. Both views are flawed, but at least our view has substance, and less bias. We clearly want him to do well, and are excited at the possibility this season as he has started promisingly. On the other hand you were already excepting another dead season before it had begun, and had written him off in spectacular fashion, whilst covering yourself with 'if he makes it' or 'don't hold your breath but if he comes good ill be eat my words' type of lines, which is exactly what people are doing. You can't now say it's only been three games, don't get too comfortable when you were busy writing him off a long time ago!
It's a tad ironic is all.
Still, it's a bit silly.
Dans, what would you say is a fair target for Berbatov this season in terms of goals, since his lack of goals in past seasons has been one of his stronger criticisms?
I can also agree with the, 'it's only been a few games' point, to a degree. Yes, it shouldn't be something we expect every single game, otherwise he will have a monster season for us, but at the same time it's very promising right? Consistency, or lack of it was a major complaint from some, so far in all his games this season he's brought on more of that, developed his general play and shown real determination to score.
Sure, we can't jump on that and say that he's going to be our best player, or that this season will be a major one for him, it's too early to tell. But at the same time, you are saying he's not going to make it, that's he's doing/going to do a Forlan, and that we shouldn't hold our breath. Both views are flawed, but at least our view has substance, and less bias. We clearly want him to do well, and are excited at the possibility this season as he has started promisingly. On the other hand you were already excepting another dead season before it had begun, and had written him off in spectacular fashion, whilst covering yourself with 'if he makes it' or 'don't hold your breath but if he comes good ill be eat my words' type of lines, which is exactly what people are doing. You can't now say it's only been three games, don't get too comfortable when you were busy writing him off a long time ago!
It's a tad ironic is all.
Dans is a grumpy old cnut (it takes one to know one) and was responding to being ganged up on by a bunch of "I told you so" merchants. Which is always going to provoke a response.
Speaking of "told you so" you've really changed your tune about Berbatov, haven't you?
Quit talking to the mirror, Dans. People will think you are mad.Back on ignore for you. In fact why did I take you off??
Fool.
Tool.
I'm not in the I told you so group, I'm in the I give credit when a player plays well and tell it how it is when they don't group
I've told Sammysky, this is not a compettition
As there appears to be an attempt to reasonably discuss and not simply hurl childish insults..........
A good season from Berbatov would be in part 20 league goals. I don't think that is too much to expect from a striker who cost 30m (the price, I maintain, IS relevant) and who was hailed as Cantona-esque on arrival.
But it isn't his lack of goals that I have a gripe with so much as his off the ball work rate. I would like to see more all round effort in games from him - a bit more graft, chasing back etc. Against Everton I again noticed how much he hangs back - he should be using his (undoubted) skill and technical ability to create in the final 3rd for others rather than spend so much time dropping deep to receive the ball. I want to see him harrass defenders when they are on the ball. Someone mentioned that against Everton in those last 3 minutes, had there been more pressure up front rather than simply allowing them stream forward unopposed, perhaps we wouldn't have conceded. Before you get your knickers in a twist, I am NOT BLAMING BERBATOV FOR THE LOSS OF 2 POINTS.
Anyway, my gripes with him are well documented.
I should also point out that I live in Germany, have done since 2000, so I have probably seen more of Berbatov than most of you (cue Condom Man.................you're on ignore, tool, so don't bother addressing me) and frankly whilst I have always been able to appreciate his technical ability and I have never felt he was a typical United player (see Cantona, Hughes, McClair etc - they worked hard, had striker instincts, scored goals - all rounders you might say). I should add that the reaction here when he signed for us was one of incredulity.
A good season from Berbatov would be in part 20 league goals. I don't think that is too much to expect from a striker who cost 30m (the price, I maintain, IS relevant) and who was hailed as Cantona-esque on arrival.
But it isn't his lack of goals that I have a gripe with so much as his off the ball work rate. I would like to see more all round effort in games from him - a bit more graft, chasing back etc. Against Everton I again noticed how much he hangs back - he should be using his (undoubted) skill and technical ability to create in the final 3rd for others rather than spend so much time dropping deep to receive the ball. I want to see him harrass defenders when they are on the ball. Someone mentioned that against Everton in those last 3 minutes, had there been more pressure up front rather than simply allowing them stream forward unopposed, perhaps we wouldn't have conceded. Before you get your knickers in a twist, I am NOT BLAMING BERBATOV FOR THE LOSS OF 2 POINTS.
Anyway, my gripes with him are well documented.
I should also point out that I live in Germany, have done since 2000, so I have probably seen more of Berbatov than most of you (cue Condom Man.................you're on ignore, tool, so don't bother addressing me) and frankly whilst I have always been able to appreciate his technical ability and I have never felt he was a typical United player (see Cantona, Hughes, McClair etc - they worked hard, had striker instincts, scored goals - all rounders you might say). I should add that the reaction here when he signed for us was one of incredulity.
20 League goals is fair. I would be satisfied with anything above that. Above 20 for me would be a great return.
His overall game has dramatically improved though. I don't think he's really added anything compared to last season, but he seems more confident, willing and determined to make an impact. Apart from the Everton game, I think he has been hussling defenders far more then last season, but more importantly then winning the ball back, is his time spent on in. I loved watching him take on defenders last season, he can hold the ball with the best of them, but this season he's gone from just retaining possession to making longer, riskier runs, opening up space for our other players and pulling out opposition from all sides.
His passing and tracking back is underated on here. Last two seasons his passing has generally been sublime, but with goals come more notice so perhaps people are starting to see more of the whole package through his goals, even though not much has really changed from the rest of his game.
Can I ask what your general target is for Rooney, in terms of goals, and what they might of been a few seasons ago if you still remember. Not in relation to Berbatov or to compare and say 'Rooney only used to score 14' goals and cost the same, just to get a better idea of your targets.
His overall game has dramatically improved though. I don't think he's really added anything compared to last season, but he seems more confident, willing and determined to make an impact. Apart from the Everton game, I think he has been hussling defenders far more then last season, but more importantly then winning the ball back, is his time spent on in. I loved watching him take on defenders last season, he can hold the ball with the best of them, but this season he's gone from just retaining possession to making longer, riskier runs, opening up space for our other players and pulling out opposition from all sides.
His passing and tracking back is underated on here. Last two seasons his passing has generally been sublime, but with goals come more notice so perhaps people are starting to see more of the whole package through his goals, even though not much has really changed from the rest of his game.
Can I ask what your general target is for Rooney, in terms of goals, and what they might of been a few seasons ago if you still remember. Not in relation to Berbatov or to compare and say 'Rooney only used to score 14' goals and cost the same, just to get a better idea of your targets.
You're never going to get that from him. Just like you're never going to see Scholes stop getting crazy yellow cards.
In terms of improvement, I think we can expect him to pop up with assists a bit more regularly and finally start scoring some fuuuuuuucking headers but otherwise, the first few games were a fairly good demonstration of what he offers as a footballer. He's no Cantona but he's still got a lot to offer. The comparison with Hughes and McClair is very strange because they couldn't be more dissimilar as players. You should be thinking more along the lines of a slightly more mobile Teddy Sheringham.
Genuine question here. If he carried on performing for the rest of this season as well as he started it, would you be calling for him to be flogged in the summer like you did at the end of last season?
So Pogue says you'll never get an increased workrate from Berbatov, but hectic says this area of his game has dramatically improved.
Don't you just love opinions?
Don't you just love opinions?
20 goals would be what I would like to see from Rooney too. I could forgive him if he only hit 14 again though because I can be fairly sure that the effort he puts into 95% of games makes up for the defecit.
he seems to be moving more freely than his first two seasons, it can alter the perception that he's working harder
I am not comparing Berbatov to those players - I am saying that's the typical United player for me. Berbatov doesn't compare to them at all. I like to see hardworkers. Rooney puts the effort in. Hughes did, McClair did, Cantona did too. Berbatov since he joined us hasn't really impressed with regards the effort side of things.
That's a straw clutch if ever I heard one.
As I have said before, as a United fan, I want to see all our players do well. If Berbatov scores 20 and shows increased contribution all around, then I'd be happy to see him here next year.
Fair?! It would be a frigging excellent return!
Wayne Rooney only once got >20 goals (last season, with 26, next best was 16). Andy Cole's highest tally was 19. Dwight Yorke's highest was 20 (in 99/00) Sheringham's best was 15. Hughes also 15. McClair's personal best was 9.
I could go on. You get the picture...
We play 38 league games. Averaging anything close to a goal every second game should be the best we could expect from any of our strikers. Allowing for injuries and squad rotation I'd say anything over 15 league goals would be very good indeed.
I meant fair from Dans, I thought he might suggest something stupid like 30.
As I said before, above 15 for me is good enough, 20 is wonderful.
I didn't say that, I said his overall game had dramatically improved.
I don't think he's changed all that much, in terms of actually changing what he's doing, it's as if he just seems to want it more. Spends more time on the ball, more confident of his runs, passing (if thats possible) and possession. Quicker to take a shot and more of them as well. I don't think he's really doing all that much different, I still maintain that he did track back for us in the past two seasons, but this went unnoticed as it jars with the 'lazy' tag he has been given, alongside his passing which has been consistently excellent.
20 league goals:
Last Season:
1 Didier Drogba Chelsea 29
2 Wayne Rooney Man Utd 26
3 Darren Bent Sunderland 24
4 Carlos Tevez Manchester City 23
5 Frank Lampard Chelsea 22
2008/9
None
2007/8
1 Cristiano Ronaldo Man Utd 31
2 Emmanuel Adebayor Arsenal 24
3 Fernando Torres Liverpool 24
2006/7
1 Didier Drogba Chelsea 20
2005/6
1 Thierry Henry Arsenal 27
2 Ruud van Nistelrooy Man Utd 21
2004/5
1 Thierry Henry Arsenal 25
2 Andrew Johnson Crystal Palace 21
2003/4
1 Thierry Henry Arsenal 30
2 Alan Shearer Newcastle 22
3 Louis Saha Man Utd 20
4 Ruud van Nistelrooy Man Utd 20
2002/3
1 Ruud van Nistelrooy Man Utd 25
2 Thierry Henry Arsenal 24
3 James Beattie Southampton 23
4 Mark Viduka Leeds United 20
Whilst it might not be likely, it is definitely not impossible. feck me, if Saha can do it, Berbatov can.
Last Season:
1 Didier Drogba Chelsea 29
2 Wayne Rooney Man Utd 26
3 Darren Bent Sunderland 24
4 Carlos Tevez Manchester City 23
5 Frank Lampard Chelsea 22
2008/9
None
2007/8
1 Cristiano Ronaldo Man Utd 31
2 Emmanuel Adebayor Arsenal 24
3 Fernando Torres Liverpool 24
2006/7
1 Didier Drogba Chelsea 20
2005/6
1 Thierry Henry Arsenal 27
2 Ruud van Nistelrooy Man Utd 21
2004/5
1 Thierry Henry Arsenal 25
2 Andrew Johnson Crystal Palace 21
2003/4
1 Thierry Henry Arsenal 30
2 Alan Shearer Newcastle 22
3 Louis Saha Man Utd 20
4 Ruud van Nistelrooy Man Utd 20
2002/3
1 Ruud van Nistelrooy Man Utd 25
2 Thierry Henry Arsenal 24
3 James Beattie Southampton 23
4 Mark Viduka Leeds United 20
Whilst it might not be likely, it is definitely not impossible. feck me, if Saha can do it, Berbatov can.
The seasons in bold speak volumes about how unrealistic your expectations are. Why would you set something that you yourself admit is "not likely" as the minimum goal return you'd expect from one of our strikers?
Actually, I think I know the answer to that one.
Did he say it was the minimum, or a general target?
A general target is understandable, because a target doesn't have to be likely, still a bit warped.
A minimum of 20, which he admits is not likely does seem to be setting him up for a fall.
A general target is understandable, because a target doesn't have to be likely, still a bit warped.
A minimum of 20, which he admits is not likely does seem to be setting him up for a fall.
15 goals from Berbatov and 20 goals from Rooney is what we should be aiming to get this year. I'd be chuffed if both achieve and hit that target.
Volumes??
Two season where there were only one speak more for the probability than 2 seasons where there were more than 4 players who passed that mark??
Nah Wayne can hit 25, it would be sad if he scored 30 something last year and to expect him to get 20 in my opinion
or are we just talking league goals?
And why are we focussing on goal tallies? That wasn't my main gripe. Read again.
Volumes??
Two season where there were only one speak more for the probability than 2 seasons where there were more than 4 players who passed that mark??
Correct.
You've stated that minimum goal return you would expect from Berbatov in order for you to consider him to have had a decent season would be a tally that puts him amongst the top three most prolific strikers in 4 of the last 8 seasons and win him the golden boot in 2 of them.
indeed.Yup. Agree with that.
I'd like to see both of them get up near to double figures in assists too. 15+ league goals for Berbatov, 20+ for Rooney and 8+ assists each would be a very good season's work from the pair of them.
Correct.
You've stated that minimum goal return you would expect from Berbatov in order for you to consider him to have had a decent season would be a tally that puts him amongst the top three most prolific strikers in 4 of the last 8 seasons and win him the golden boot in 2 of them.
I don't think I used the word minimum anywhere. You're also starting to twist my words to support your non point.
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