Berbatov will outscore Hernandez this season. Hernandez just isn't ready yet and the hype around him was fecking bonkers.
Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances
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Berbatov will outscore Hernandez this season. Hernandez just isn't ready yet and the hype around him was fecking bonkers.
Wow really? We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on that point. I thought he was central to some of our worse performances and on the bench for some of our best.
I think it is quite difficult, as to play Hernandez with Rooney we'd have to drop Rooney much deeper (or put him on the left), which Fergie will be very reluctant to do given his goal scoring last year. Berbatov doesn't really have any competition for the "number 10" role, so I expect our tactics to be the same as last year (injuries permitting). Rooney on his own vs big teams, partnering Berbatov against others, with Owen/Hernandez/Macheda coming on around 60 mins if we are winning handsomely or things aren't going our way.
/edit: To cw1984 I totally agree, I think he probably would score 15+ if he were a first team regular, but I expect him to probably play a similar amount to Owen last year.
I think he started every game in which we scored four or more goals and played very well in all of them.
Agee he sat out some of our best performances too but that could be down to tactics.
At the very least, he helped us cream poor sides. Which sounds like faint praise but is actually been the way we've won our last few league titles, in which our record against the big four wasn't great.
We have seen him play in one and a bit Prem games. Give the boy a chance.
What makes me think he will soon adapt is that he looks confident and hungry. But we will see.
Question though - if Owen was fit, would have have started infront of Hernandez on Sunday?
Eh? I'm not writing him off, not at all. I just don't think he's ready yet. It's natural for players to take time to adapt.
Apparently Fergie pretty much confirmed he would have in the pre-match interview. Which makes sense really. There was a stupid amount of pressure for Hernandez to hit the ground running, I'm sure Fergie would rather bed him in gradually if he could.
It is very faint prasie.
Players like Berbatov are not bought to ensure we beat the shit teams.
I heard that, but i thought that may just have been a bit of a confidence boost for Owen.
We will see how it works it.
Thats what i am saying. One and a bit games and you dont think he is ready?
Sure, hes not the finished product, but theres not reason why he cant hit the ground running and do a good job for us now.
I think when we're winning and playing very well he is a great player, but then I think Carrick is of a similar vain.
In my opinion he is a luxury that not many teams could afford, but I do think Man Utd can afford to occasionally carry one player in a game (not like West Ham with Diamanti for instance), in return for his occasional brilliance. I just hope the games we carry him start being the likes of West Brom at home, and his brilliance starts occurring vs top 4 teams (which hasn't been the case up until now).
It was an educated guess. He's young, has played very little football and is moving to a new country. I didn't think he was ready before he kicked a ball and I still don't now. Carling Cup games and substitute appearances to bed him in is what I expect from now on.
I wouldnt be surprised if he doesnt start another Premier League game for a while.
Rooney when fit will play and Berbatov in current form/attitude will mean none of the rest will get starts in the league.
Chicha was used because of Rooney being out. It's not far fetched to say he probably isn't quite ready to start. He'll have to be assessed as a starter once he plays some games as sub and maybe CL or CC games.
The debates about Berbatov's contributions in seasons past and against what kind of opposition and in what circumstances, they've been done to death.
Except for a select few, even his biggest critics have seen enough at the start to be optimistic that this might be the season where he'll even do the business when it matters. He's already done it in all 3 games so far (if you count the Charity Shield). Lets hope his form continues and the rest of the squad starts performing - if that happens, as people say when we are on the up - he adds another level to our game.
Chicha was used because of Rooney being out. It's not far fetched to say he probably isn't quite ready to start. He'll have to be assessed as a starter once he plays some games as sub and maybe CL or CC games.
The debates about Berbatov's contributions in seasons past and against what kind of opposition and in what circumstances, they've been done to death.
Except for a select few, even his biggest critics have seen enough at the start to be optimistic that this might be the season where he'll even do the business when it matters. He's already done it in all 3 games so far (if you count the Charity Shield). Lets hope his form continues and the rest of the squad starts performing - if that happens, as people say when we are on the up - he adds another level to our game.
There are plenty of very obvious reasons why he shouldn't be expected to do anything of the sort.
It was only a matter of time.
The fact that Berbatov has arguably been better than Tevez thus far this season is apparently an irrelevance.
It was only a matter of time.
The fact that Berbatov has arguably been better than Tevez thus far this season is apparently an irrelevance.
There is so much wrong in this sentence.
First off, he wasnt better than Tevez.
And secondly we have played 3 games so far and already draw conclusions?
I think he has done pretty well for us so far though this 3 games.
Hopefully the goals will come as well.
With Berbatov, we need to stop regurgitating the same old arguments from the last three seasons. The fairest thing to do now is to take each of his performances on their individual merits.
What we've seen so far this season is a player who has scored 2 in 3 and he's also assisted one. In response to arguments that he hasn't always been direct enough, he's also been getting a lot more shots off and playing in more attacking areas.
Behind Scholes, he's basically been our best player in our opening matches. Credit where it's due, irrespective of what has gone on in past seasons.
What we've seen so far this season is a player who has scored 2 in 3 and he's also assisted one. In response to arguments that he hasn't always been direct enough, he's also been getting a lot more shots off and playing in more attacking areas.
Behind Scholes, he's basically been our best player in our opening matches. Credit where it's due, irrespective of what has gone on in past seasons.
It was only a matter of time.
The fact that Berbatov has arguably been better than Tevez thus far this season is apparently an irrelevance.[/QUOTE]
There is so much wrong in this sentence.
First off, he wasnt better than Tevez.
And secondly we have played 3 games so far and already draw conclusions?
I think he has done pretty well for us so far though this 3 games.
Hopefully the goals will come as well.
I'm not drawing any definitive conclusions. I'm just saying that in the three games he's been impressive enough, whereas Tevez's start had been relatively inauspicious before yesterday's game...
I was basically saying that it's strange timing for another Tevez-Berbatov debate to start up, given that Berbatov has started the season very well - that much is undeniable.
He's been fairly good, I mean from the 2 matches he's played.
Still, he still has to be a better finisher, well at least he can be the one we can rely on when we really need a goal. Has never stamped authority to become an indespensible player to the first team yet as he doesn't kill off games.
I don't like the fact he is a luxary player, I know he is trying hard to prove himself but again, the 30m price tag is a big factor, a factor he might not able to overcome.
Still, he still has to be a better finisher, well at least he can be the one we can rely on when we really need a goal. Has never stamped authority to become an indespensible player to the first team yet as he doesn't kill off games.
I don't like the fact he is a luxary player, I know he is trying hard to prove himself but again, the 30m price tag is a big factor, a factor he might not able to overcome.
Yeah no need for it, that's for sure
I'm looking forward to watching him this season. He has started off pretty well and when the goals come there's no reason to suggest that this season isnt going to be a success for him.
No one here was complaining about ronaldo never tracking back and acting like a drama queen every time he got foul. WHY?
Because he was an outstanding player.
Berbatov on the other hand doesn't score goals and doesn't work hard for the team. He's a luxury player who isn't moblie enough to lead the line and at times needs to be carried through games. He's a poor mans Sheringham or Cantona.
Ignore the rest of the post then, like you have done with others throughout this thread.
A LOT of people moaned about Ronaldo's lack of tracking back, don't disillusion yourself. He had a lot of grief of the fans in his final year, not only because of his antics in the summer but because of his so called lack of 'trying' or 'caring' before February-March time.
Leading our line? Once last season he was asked to do that, in a 4-5-1 at home to Chelsea, despite everyone already acknowledging that he isn't a lead the line striker. Pretty lucky he isn't leading our line then isn't it?
Didn't he play up on his own against Bolton too? Quite well, if memory serves...
Didn't he play with Owen?
Away to Bolton in March, when we won 4-0, I'm fairly sure we played 4-5-1.
edit: Sky Sports match report seems to suggest so, too:
Sky Sports | Football News | Player Ratings | Bolton v Man Utd - 27th March 2010
He was given a rating of 9 too, for what it's worth.
Played well against Wolves away as well - up top on his own.
In a tough 1-0 win.
In a tough 1-0 win.
He did, yeah, but in the the home game against Bolton. Away game he played up top and did well.
What I don't get is why people definitively say he can't play up top on his own, or things like 442 is attacking and 433's defensive...it's all about the application not the initial setup. Berbatov can play up top on his own. If Arshavin can play up top on his own Berbatov can. If Totti can play up top on his own Berbatov can.
We've gotten used to a set style of playing the one up top with Rooney that was so successful that we became rigid in its fluidity, and it's not really the way that's going to get the best out of Berbatov. But we've got the players - Valencia to stretch the defence and pull in behind off Berbatov's passes, Nani to come in off wide and act as a secondary central attacker and offer a direct threat, and Anderson, Scholes and Fletcher to provide an option high up the pitch. We showed signs of making it work at the back end of last season and I wouldn't be surprised to see it improve further.
We've gotten used to a set style of playing the one up top with Rooney that was so successful that we became rigid in its fluidity, and it's not really the way that's going to get the best out of Berbatov. But we've got the players - Valencia to stretch the defence and pull in behind off Berbatov's passes, Nani to come in off wide and act as a secondary central attacker and offer a direct threat, and Anderson, Scholes and Fletcher to provide an option high up the pitch. We showed signs of making it work at the back end of last season and I wouldn't be surprised to see it improve further.
Its not so much berba performance as much as the team. When we play 442 we are good in possession and moving the ball but I feel when teams push us hard or come at us we are definitely less effective. It was something Liverpool exposed ruthlessly in the 4-1 loss and its something we have not really overcome other than playing an extra midfielder.
For sure. Which is mainly down to us getting out-numbered in midfield. When we're playing 442 vs 442 we rarely have this problem. At least I can't think of us ever getting over-run in a game like that.
Arshavin can't play up top on his own, he was eaten by the Cbs everytime , he even complained about it in an interview.
Playing uptop probably cost Wenger the game against Chelsea last year.
He blatantly hated it but I thought he made it work quite well. 8-3-3(or 27 out of 42) isn't a bad record, I don't think.
Thought he did pretty similarly to how Tevez does up top on his own, constantly pulls off the centre backs to run at them, pulls out wide, creates space for outside-inside runs that are so threatening...he looked exhausted by it eventually but for the majority of his time there I thought he did well.
Thats's really besides the main point anyway...
The thing we have to play that extra man because we actually don't have a true defensive midfielder -we don't have a Mascherano a total destroyer who just sits - Fletcher is not a defensive midfielder no matter what people think he is.
So yeah we have more options when we play 4-4-2 in attack as we have 2 notional strikers but as we lack that true defensive midfielder we are light in midfield the solution is usually playing Park who is more defensive in nature or as mentioned we drop a striker.
Someone like Mascherano would be useless in a 442 though. You can only play that sort of player in a midfield three.
Why you say that? Wouldnt a destroyer sitting in front of our defence free us up to play 4-4-2 and to have a midfielder who can spend more time attacking?
He was pretty much useless there in the qualifiers for Argentina.
He's a great player but a limited one and he was exposed.
I can't think of any midfielder who plays such a specifically negative role that has ever performed well in a two man midfield. The likes of Keane and Vieira always had much more in their locker than someone like Mascherano or Makalele.
I think we need to expand it a bit - the formation could be 4-1-3-2 so rather than a midfield two its a midfield three with 2 forwards?
It's that the current thinking is drop a striker and add a midfielder against the better sides. I am just seeing whether there can exist a formation where we can play 2 strikers or notional forwards yet still have the strength in midfield if we are pushed back.
What may have happened in the Fulham game is that as Fulham pushed on, our midfield dropped deeper and further away from Berba and Hernandez. Berba naturally gravitated away from Hernandez and towards the deeper midfielders which created a large gap between our most advanced forward and midfielders. This was then by some blamed on Berba not being effective in tough games but perhaps it was a more a wrong conclusion based on the fact its our midfield which has a tendency to drop deep when pressed.
It depends on how your 4-4-2 is structured. Real Madrid with the Galacticos used to put their magic (Zizou, Figo) in free roles on the flanks and 2 Makelele's (Makelele, Conceicao/Helguera) in the center. It worked rather well too.
TBF so was the entire Argentine side.
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