I think he's more exposed when there is a tactically inept manager, for sure. He's never been a flashy footballer and always been one that does the simple things best giving solid 7/10 performances pretty much every week at club level (aside from the odd game where he and the rest of the team underperform). He will never and has never really been a player to drag the rest of the side up when the chips are down though and that's probably his greatest weakness.
Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
I think he's more exposed when there is a tactically inept manager, for sure. He's never been a flashy footballer and always been one that does the simple things best giving solid 7/10 performances pretty much every week at club level (aside from the odd game where he and the rest of the team underperform). He will never and has never really been a player to drag the rest of the side up when the chips are down though and that's probably his greatest weakness.
Was easily one of our best players at Arsenal
Not sure why people are bashing players from Foden to Bellingham to Rice even Saka in so many game threads when the common denominator in all of this is the dinosaur in charge.
But again it is a United forum.
As soon as Southgates 15th century tactics are gone the entire team will go another level up.
Not sure why people are bashing players from Foden to Bellingham to Rice even Saka in so many game threads when the common denominator in all of this is the dinosaur in charge.
But again it is a United forum.
As soon as Southgates 15th century tactics are gone the entire team will go another level up.
If he'd stayed with Ireland he would be celebrating the result last night.
Tactics don't help but he's like a young Labrador tearing around the park after a ball, lacks all sense of discipline and nouse. Running for running sake because we love effort and endeavour in this country.
Mainoo was poor last night but it’s clear to me that this tournament really exposed Rice a bit. He is a good player but I have genuine doubts about him being an elite mid fielder now because of his inability to do much with the ball especially in tight areas. But then you are an Arsenal fan, expecting an Arsenal fan to consider an Arsenal player might not be that good is the hardest thing in the world
Yes, role a fifteen yarder into Odegaard 's feet.
Yet for Arsenal he is more disciplined. I really do think Southgate just tells players to go out and play with no tactical instruction in terms of forward play.
I actually disagree, I think the tactics are very obvious, be compact and hard to break down etc.
Trouble is forward play is poor but the issue is, and I'll keep saying it, zero pace in the team, we can't transition up the pitch at speed when we do win it, we also don't and cannot control a game like a Spain so we're in this limbo space of doing neither particularly well.
I have no love for the guy but it's been a long season. The England side looked tired throughout the majority of the tournament.
I think Rodri, Carvahal, Morata, Cucurella all had long seasons.
Apologies, I meant in forward play. I think even Kobbie struggled to get on the ball last night and influence the game as much, but that's partly due to the ineptitude of Kane all tournament and to lesser extents, Foden and Bellingham. With barely any press and letting Spain keep hold of the ball it allowed them more time and influence to bypass Rice and Kobbie and pop up into pockets.
Individually I think Rice had a really poor tournament too though, the simple things he usually does well he wasn't doing and he was really weak on multiple occassions. He was at fault for the Simons goal against the Netherlands and weak in many other moments that could have led to goals due to getting outfought for the ball.
Agreed, forward play we looked pretty static and clueless. I do think a lack of pace in behind was the issue as teams can squeeze us and flood the midfield so we can't play short.
For Southgate not to see this is criminal
The way Arsenal play they will drag opposition players out of position, what creates space for Rice to run into and he looks good. Yesterday he looked poor on the ball because England has no system, every player is on his own (you need great individual skills to get by) and Spain were all over that midfield + lack of threat in behind made it easy to squeeze them.
It just shows Arteta knows how to use him, how to balance the team etc, while England is like all the muscles but no brain.
He tries to see so much of the ball, tries to dictate the game. Takes so many touches without realising he’s not as good on the ball as he clearly thinks he is. He must know that he’s limited and if he takes that much amount of the ball, it’s not going anywhere. You are not Xavi ffs you moron.
He would be fine in a midfield three but in a two he's exposed as he's more simple than expansive like Kobbie or Wharton. If they're going to persist with a two then the latter should be the choice going forward as they're not as limited. Would also work if Southgate was able to use Stones like he is used at City and steps up.
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You are partially right but you have to acknowledge if Rice is on the ball that much, it’s going to be inefficient. Rice is very limited on the ball, he should be no where near trying to dictate the game. Rice himself needs to realise this rather than taking a pro active role with the ball as if is Pirlo or Xavi.
He's not the player a lot of people think or want him to be. He's like a better version of Fred in reality - great energy, pressing and ability to hound the ball in the middle third. Can progress the ball when he's got space to run into.
But doesn't have the ability to play through a press, dictate and control the game at the back. In fact, Stones is better than him in the first phase of build up.
But doesn't have the ability to play through a press, dictate and control the game at the back. In fact, Stones is better than him in the first phase of build up.
Perhaps England's fault we don't have more pieces to the puzzle if Arteta can use him well. We seem to rely on him too much and he can't deliver. Always looks clumsy when on the ball longer and lacking the passing needed, people who watch each week say he's not a DM either, bit of a go between man. I think he reads the game well.
He's not the player some want him to be, he's not getting picked for Spain.
He's not the player some want him to be, he's not getting picked for Spain.
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They absolutely did yes. But they play possession based football whereas England are very reactive which leads to laboured performances.
Agreed. Rice’s strengths are good positioning, being physical, stamina,shielding the defence and keeping the things simple. He’s very good defensive midfielder to me rather than a box to box. He isn’t good enough with the ball and every team is gonna suffer if he’s on the ball for long periods. He can keep the possession but very futile with it.
Think it’s fair to say that he would be better with a manager who is more tactical but I still think that with Rice you will always struggle against the best of the best teams, he is a quality player to have overall but against the really good teams who can keep possession he doesn’t offer a lot
And we shouldn’t underestimate the influence Steve Holland has on tactics and instructions.
Honestly no idea why anyone ever thought Rice was, or would be, an "elite" midfielder. He wouldn't even get in the Spain squad.
I swear it's only in this country we laud players like Rice, who are industrius but limited players.
If he worked on his game then I think he could one day be a Makelele type player, but because of all the smoke he seems to think he can be more than that but, at the top level, he isn't near good enough with the ball at his feet.
I swear it's an English culture thing. We think our #6 players have to run around like idiots flying into tackles. The best one we've produced in my lifetime was Carrick and he was so underrated by the nation it was actually comical, despite anchoring the midfield at United during probably the most successful period in our history.
What you are saying is Rice isn't good enough, but the Arsenal players carry him where the England players cannot.
Hi mate
He did his part with the right personnel and tactical set up, but most of his value comes off the ball, not on it. You kinda need a guy with his physical profile in any team nowadays, the problem is they often offer something on the ball as well.
He’s not quite as bad on the ball as McTominay, who actively shies away from it, but the way he approaches the game is problematic regardless, only ever comfortable passing forward without any pressure within a 10 yard radius from him, which means he often retreated with the ball instead of going forward from a deep position.
Arsenal play far more sophisticated, balanced football. Players have roles and work in a system, and in that system Rice is doing alright. He is exposed in England team because this is just a bunch of players that are told to kick the ball towards the opponent goal with no actual plan. Only truly exceptional players will shine in this system, and it's well known Rice is not one of them - but still does a good job for Arsenal.
Arsenal, City and Madrid don't play possession based football?
Of course they do. But England do much more chasing of the ball than the likes of Spain for example.
I'm an Arsenal fan so i'm going to defend Rice, but i'm Scottish as well so don't really want England to do well so that tempers a lot of my pro Rice biases.
England just had to many issues going into and throughout the tournament to have the impact that England fans had hoped. Spain don't have the big names any more of the Xavi / Iniesta era, i'd even argue individually are they any more talented in the main than their English counterparts? What they had this tournament is have much better balance throughout the team, they didn't try and force square pegs in round holes.
They had natural width both in full back and further wide areas, they had a 2 holders who knew their roles, a creative 10, they had pace up front that can stretch teams with the wide players, and a focal point up front that came short and ran deep. Guys like Cucurella, Diaz, Morata are hardly world beaters, but they did what was required of them.
England were just the opposite. No natural width at all on the left side. Having to rely on a clearly not match fit Shaw as their only left footed outlet. Kane offering nothing in behind, constantly condensing play. Trying to shoe horn Bellingham and Foden into the same side (they did do a better job of that with the system change). Central midfield partnership constantly chopped and changed during the tournament.
I don't think any individual player, be it Rice, Mainoo, Bellingham, Foden, had bad tournaments. I just don't think the team was set up to get the best out of them. The only individual i would criticise this tournament is Kane, because i honestly thought he was more a hindrance than help, and didn't even do what you want from the basics of a forward player for how England were playing.
England just had to many issues going into and throughout the tournament to have the impact that England fans had hoped. Spain don't have the big names any more of the Xavi / Iniesta era, i'd even argue individually are they any more talented in the main than their English counterparts? What they had this tournament is have much better balance throughout the team, they didn't try and force square pegs in round holes.
They had natural width both in full back and further wide areas, they had a 2 holders who knew their roles, a creative 10, they had pace up front that can stretch teams with the wide players, and a focal point up front that came short and ran deep. Guys like Cucurella, Diaz, Morata are hardly world beaters, but they did what was required of them.
England were just the opposite. No natural width at all on the left side. Having to rely on a clearly not match fit Shaw as their only left footed outlet. Kane offering nothing in behind, constantly condensing play. Trying to shoe horn Bellingham and Foden into the same side (they did do a better job of that with the system change). Central midfield partnership constantly chopped and changed during the tournament.
I don't think any individual player, be it Rice, Mainoo, Bellingham, Foden, had bad tournaments. I just don't think the team was set up to get the best out of them. The only individual i would criticise this tournament is Kane, because i honestly thought he was more a hindrance than help, and didn't even do what you want from the basics of a forward player for how England were playing.
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Sure, though his limited technical ability and lack of creativity are disconnected from tactics. He looks better with Arsenal but I also think his role this season has been overblown in reaction to the fee, a lot of fans spouting stuff like "looks like a bargain" etc. He's exactly what you say he is and has his uses in a certain system but this tournament has also shown just how limited he is.
England are in part reactive because of him though. You don't dictate play out of thin air, you do that with certain key players in MF - and Rice in a 2 man midfield, well you're never gonna do that.
Good player but will never be a world class or elite midfielder. He's too limited.
So many think a neat pass through the lines is all that exists for a midfielder. I dont remember Roy Keane ever playing deaf touches though the lines.
So much more to Rice's game that if being overlooked. Guess rival fans will be really excited to see him line up next to Odegaard next season too. 'This Arsenal midfield will be easy to beat'.
So much more to Rice's game that if being overlooked. Guess rival fans will be really excited to see him line up next to Odegaard next season too. 'This Arsenal midfield will be easy to beat'.
I was just thinking how much would a 25-year-old Carrick cost today, coming out of Tottenham to Manchester United, considering how vastly superior he was to a modern day Rice. I believe the transfer was right on his 25th Birthday as well.
Carrick needed Hargreaves to win the UCL.
He couldn't dictate play as a single pivot by himself to a UCL standard.
Its just anyone who is English gets checked as being technically deficit - you see it with Bellingham, Foden, Rice and so many more.
If these players had a different passport then they would get much less hate.
The players United fans thought was better than Rice..
1. Bissouma
2. Ndidi
3. Caicedo
4. Onana
My lord id take Rice over them any day of the week.
He wouldn't get in the spain squad - because they have the best CDM in the world but we don't! Not at Manchester United & not in England.
It's mainly Arsenal fans that hype him to outrageous levels.
Keane was a terrific passer of the ball.
He's a good player but he's not nimble, quick or flexible. The Spanish players all are nimble, slick and flexible. They can change thier body direction so freely.
England players, outside the likes of Foden, Mainoo and Palmer, are little stiff.
There's nothing Rice can really do about this. It's the body he's given but he can still improve on his awareness at times and speed of thought.
But, I said this before the Tournament during the Belgium game and it's proven to be a issue , England's midfield lacked balance. We don't have the right personnel yet to dominate games, though players like Mainoo are a step in the right direction.
I think, on general, Rice and the midfield balance was Southgates biggest failing.
He couldn't get it working.
Rice was horribly exposed more often than not. Mainoo was too far ahead at times and Im still not sure what the idea was with Foden and Bellingham.
If you're playing Rice as a DM, a role he hasn't played a club level for sometime, then you need bodies far closer to him. You need to be conservative. Southgate continually exposed Rice and the back 4 by having too many forward thinking midfielders on the pitch. He only had Mainoo who could offer Abit of both yet he's a kid and his lack of experience was equally exposed.
Southgate was negligent.
All the opposition needed to consistently do was to close down on Rice.
Before the Tournament the better pundits predicted that the only thing holding England back was the manager and to some extent they were right.
Southgate just didn't find a cohesive midfield base.
England players, outside the likes of Foden, Mainoo and Palmer, are little stiff.
There's nothing Rice can really do about this. It's the body he's given but he can still improve on his awareness at times and speed of thought.
But, I said this before the Tournament during the Belgium game and it's proven to be a issue , England's midfield lacked balance. We don't have the right personnel yet to dominate games, though players like Mainoo are a step in the right direction.
I think, on general, Rice and the midfield balance was Southgates biggest failing.
He couldn't get it working.
Rice was horribly exposed more often than not. Mainoo was too far ahead at times and Im still not sure what the idea was with Foden and Bellingham.
If you're playing Rice as a DM, a role he hasn't played a club level for sometime, then you need bodies far closer to him. You need to be conservative. Southgate continually exposed Rice and the back 4 by having too many forward thinking midfielders on the pitch. He only had Mainoo who could offer Abit of both yet he's a kid and his lack of experience was equally exposed.
Southgate was negligent.
All the opposition needed to consistently do was to close down on Rice.
Before the Tournament the better pundits predicted that the only thing holding England back was the manager and to some extent they were right.
Southgate just didn't find a cohesive midfield base.
Then you either didn’t watch him, or if you did, you weren’t paying attention. Keane played progressive passes between the basic lines in deeper midfield in his sleep, and within two touches of the ball, too. No hesitation whatsoever. We’re not talking about defence-splitting passes here for Rice, just basic progression through phase 1 and 2.