Whilst I didn’t address that in my post, I’m not sure it negates it. For one, Zinchenko inverted last season yet Partey was still responsible for a lot of progression from deep. Secondly, Arteta’s goal is to replicate the City 433 with two free 8s and a defender moving into midfield when in possession, previously it was a full-back, now it’s Stones. In any case, the system still requires Rodri’s progression to function despite a defender moving into midfield.
Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player
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Whilst I didn’t address that in my post, I’m not sure it negates it. For one, Zinchenko inverted last season yet Partey was still responsible for a lot of progression from deep. Secondly, Arteta’s goal is to replicate the City 433 with two free 8s and a defender moving into midfield when in possession, previously it was a full-back, now it’s Stones. In any case, the system still requires Rodri’s progression to function despite a defender moving into midfield.
It doesn't negate your point at all - Rice's limitations will be impactful all the same despite that system, or in any case that's how I see it.
I wonder if Rices performances will get dissected like Pogbas did, as Rice cost 20m more.
Just because I see it differently to you, doesn’t mean I haven’t watched much of either/both. They share similar strengths (tackling volume, ability to cover ground and ball carrying) and weaknesses (deep progression and general creativity from passing). I made no statement on relative quality, but so you know, at this stage in his career I see Rice as inferior to Kante.
How many times kante progressively carried the ball to opposition box do you know that. Kante very good dribbler,fantastic ball carrier and simply said he was always all action midfielder never a settled DM who can sit before defense like rice often do.
Apparently he likes to dance and sing to his own made up song "Rice rice baby". Do you dislike him now?
That's the other thing people forget. People talk about losing Xhakas ability to build up play, without realising he didn't really do that as much through the midfield, it was Zinchenko that done much more of that. And we've yet to see Zinchenko pre season, and we didn't progress the ball well enough when he didn't play, hence the reason Tierney fell out of favour and why we've bought Timber to learn to do the same from the right hand side if required.
We've still got all the same players bar Xhaka. It's just about finding that right balance again and making connections and players getting used to new roles. Plus the likes of Jorginho and Partey are still there if needed in the meantime or the likes of Trossard and Smith-Rowe for Havertz
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I stated that ball carrying was a strength in the post you quoted. Rice wasn’t the sitting DM for West Ham, that was Soucek.
Mainoo likes to cook rice.
Makes me laugh, I think people still think Rice just sits in midfield dropping into a 3rd centre back passing sideways and backwards.
Look at the numbers. Most attacking sequence numbers for West Ham, 3rd for them in chances created.
3rd in the league for forward passes, 2nd in the league for carries.
That's without even looking at his defensive numbers.
Ironically, who does he profile closest to....Thomas Partey.
https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/06/declan-rice-arsenal-man-city-transfer/
It was a double pivot. Can’t see anything recent but this is from two seasons ago and, if anything, Soucek was more box to box than Rice
https://eplanalysis.com/analysis/premier-league-2021-22-west-ham-data-stats/amp/
Rice defenders are quiet during actual games but pipe up with stats when they haven’t got a match the next week watching him underperform to undermine their argument.
People are using stats not as a sole argument, but to back up their argument against other opinions that say thing like he's just a sideways or backwards passer or he just sits in between the two centre backs that dont have any stats for their opinion.
I fully appreciate stats can be skewed, but I'd rather have stats to help back up an opinion I see visually than no stats at all to back up what I saying.
Rice is at top in most of the stats is because of his playing time. He has created 4th most chances for West Ham, if you go by Chances per 90 mins, he is 9th.
xG chain, he is 2nd for West Ham, xG chain per 90 mins he is 10th.
2nd or 3rd in total carrying distance in league, per 90 mins he is 30th, behind Varane. Usually carrying distance is dominated by exceptional dribblers and CBs/Deeper players.
The aspect which I see as the biggest risk with Rice is the fact that the team he’s coming from and the team he’s gone to are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum with regards to team structure and compactness.
West Ham generally play deeper and more compact. Individuals aren’t tested and challenged in one v one situations as much. A lot more protection and cover around the pitch.
Meanwhile, Arsenal like all the top teams now like to send numerous bodies forward with every build up. High lines with aggressive pressing to repeatedly win the ball high. This generally requires mobile and aggressive midfielders who have the energy to compete in the numerous transitions and turn overs. We saw what happened to Liverpool when they lost that intensity in the central area last season.
My concern with Rice would be every time I’ve seen him being exposed one v one or higher up the pitch with lots of space behind to protect, he tends to get exposed and drifted by quite easily. He doesn’t have the quick change of direction or acceleration.
In that aspect I think Caicedo would have been a more suitable option for the way Arsenal play. But let’s see how Rice does. As much as we love to, pre-season isn’t the time to write him off.
This is true, Xhaka was not key in the first phases of play. But the system with Zinchenko allowed Xhaka to peel off to the space in the left wing, this is where he was effective as he would have the space and time to get his head up, while Zinchenko covered the space in the middle of the park, as well as being tidy in the tighter spaces.
With Arsenal's recruitment I think it is likely that Zinchenko will suffer most, as I think Arsenal's best midfield will end up being both Rice and Partey. This would totally negate what makes Zinchenko effective in the system as the middle of the park could become crowded with Rice, Partey and Zinchenko wanting to take up those spaces. I don't see Rice as being the sort of player to do what Partey did next season. Anyway, this change will be interesting for how Arsenal plan to move forward, as it seems like last season's successful system will need to be tinkered with at least due to the personnel involved.
Rice is one of those strange players for me, I can see that he is a good player but I don't understand the hype because whenever I watch him he is either invisible or above average but in a common way. The feeling I have about him is comparable to the one I had about players like Mavuba, Cabaye or even "prime" Nzonzi. At their best those are solid and reliable players but they are not game altering players. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up like Henderson, an important player for all the intangibles that he may bring behind the scene but not a star player.
Well said.
Same happened with Maguire, it's such a different situation.
And that's fair, so when displayed per 90 his stats round down a bit, but at the same time, you are mentioning another 1 of his qualities, and that's his robustness and availability, which when you consider the player he's coming into compete with, you can understand again why that's high up in Arteta's wishlist.
There's nothing more frustrating as an Arsenal fan to watch Partey play himself into a period of good form only to wince every time he goes down or even worse hobbles off. As a Utd fan with Martial you must appreciate that?
Won't make sense if he performs consistently unlike Pogba.
I’m not being funny but maybe watch games? What I’m seeing here is stats being used to pretend he hasn’t been in poor form for a while now.
Honestly, go read his performance thread or transfer thread when we were heavily linked for 2/3 years. Even his biggest defenders were commentating on how poor he was. It’s something you shouldn’t need stats to see.
Making stuff up about Rice not being the DM etc doesn’t help his cause either
I agree with you on this point, but there are many stats that back up the fact that Rice isn't very progressive. Below are all the deeper midfielders from the top 8 compared with Rice. Non-cross xT (expected threat - the ability to pass or carry the ball from a less dangerous part of the pitch to a more dangerous one) and progression received are probably the two most important. Rice looks decent on progression from passing, but his non-cross expected threat is low because he and West Ham go long a lot. That bumps up the progression numbers without being particularly indicative of his ability in a side that wants to retain possession, where long balls aren't helpful in a player's ability to be involved in the first and second phase of possession.
You can make the argument that West Ham weren't a very progressive side last season which skews his data and that would be entirely valid. Personally, I'm of the mind that players rarely change styles with a move, especially if one excludes players making adjustments to account for their declining physical ability.
Edit: Expected threat penalises a player for playing the ball towards less dangerous parts of the pitch (i.e. backwards). Rice being relatively good at progressive passing and carrying but poor for expected threat would imply he plays backwards a lot, or he does those actions from very, very deep.
Edit 2: Added Caicedo and MacAllister.
Edit 3: He's the lowest for progression received, implying he starts the first phase often, rather than being the recipient, or doesn't play in a system that uses the midfield for progression. In either case, he's a bad fit for what Arsenal are trying to do - build-up narrow through the middle of the pitch.
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I watch games, obviously what I see and others see are different from what you and other detractors see, and that's fair enough, it's all about opinions.
Rather than look at his thread in here, why not have a look at his thread for the fans that watch him every week on their forum? Or the fact he was named West Hams player of the season, or the fact he was named Conference League player of the tournament?
Honestly, we are going round in circles here. I'll judge him on how he does now at Arsenal. I'll also not expect him to come in and make an instant impact that some supporters now automatically demand. I appreciate he'll need to adapt, and the team will need to adapt. If long term he's not up to scratch I'll say so as well.
Did you watch Rice though? There’s a difference. Go through the Rice threads, there’s many posts from myself and people you’re arguing with specifically on his performances consistently throughout two seasons now.
I just searched your name there and you rarely mentioned Rice before March of this year. It reads as if you’re jumping in here because you were linked and now signed him.
The argument posters are having with you is the same argument we’ve had for years now, the difference is West Ham haven’t got a match against the likes of Bournemouth this weekend where he completely cedes midfield control as a third CB to sit you down.
At £105m you'd expect almost an instant impact for such prices
I don't know he played like kante. I watched him in England shirt, played against big teams. In those games I never see a player similar to kante. May be I am wrong but comparing player like kante I never saw it in him.
In any match kante played you can look at his heat map he most likely have good percent of touches near opposition box. I don't think rice ever have that much touches near opposition box.
Rice may be best player ever to play in pl but he ain't kante.
Of course I took more of an interest when we were linked, doesn't mean I have shut my eyes to him the previous couple of years, so I'll trust my own eyes and certainly more of the opinions of the supporters who watched him every single week.
And my point is not solely about what he's done, but what I believe he can do in the future with improvement, which is the same when you buy any player.
Doesn't work like that in real life though does it? Players don't dictate fee's, clubs do.
By the way, I want to make it clear that I think his fee is inflated as well, don't think I've argued against that.
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This will be a failure of a signing and he'll be sent out on loan somewhere in summer 2025.
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Sorry meant for @sifi36.Why you talking to me about Kante, I never mentioned Kante?!
Yeah I agree, one of the most important attribute for any player is availability. Player who isn't reliable fitness wise is really not of much use.
Saying all that, the stats that are posed on Rice really lacks context.
I agree with Roy Keens analysis of Declan Rice he's simply nowhere as good as people like to think. He still needs to be doing more to justify a 105 million fee.
Not really what people are saying though. People are mostly highlighting his lack of creativity (which is a very real thing if you watched him) and the fact he's a somewhat limited, if reliable, player. And it doesn't seem like he particularly improves you, which is insane for the price tag.
He might go up one or two levels in this Arsenal team (I don't particularly believe he will, but who knows), but on current evidence, that's what he is.
He's also the definition of consistent, which will probably help.
Doubt he'll make too many high profile howlers or be injured for long periods.
Not sure he'll be good enough personally, but he won't stand out for the wrong reasons.
We want a Partey profile of player, that can be more relied on in terms of form, fitness, and off the field stuff.
Now, he might not be a Partey level player just now on the ball, personally I think there's some improvement in him that gets him at least close to that level, but I think he can be better than him without the ball in positioning and tackling.
Are we massively overpaying for that, most definitely. But I can't say I'm unhappy that club had managed to get the manager a first choice target for a change.
Honestly, I respect people's opinions, can see the reservations, I had similar with the Casemiro transfer last summer for instance. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all develops.
I didn't know Rice made the move til the preseason game. The transfer happened without any of the hoopla of the Pogba one which even had a personalized Adidas campaign, Blah Blah Blah
Not to mention the major slight to Sir Alex. Pogba's performances were dissected for more than just the price tag. Being at United versus Arsenal also matter of factly just gets more limelight
Oh please, let's not bring race into this. It was NEVER about race, Manchester United players are ALWAYS put under more scrutiny than anyone else. Beckham had it far worse than Pogba ever had when he got sent off in the world cup and he's as white as they get. Rice plays for Arsenal, they are nowhere near as big as us and never will be, so journalists won't bother.
Yeah right
Under the radar transfer this one...I wasn't keen on him as a player before it reached those stupid numbers but he's here now and i hope Arteta can make him better and fit into the system.
I'm convinced we'll see Partey-Rice starting every game by September and Havertz limited to rotation for the attacking spots.