Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player

Witchking said:
The amount of people coming in here after a pre season friendly with him playing in a new team, with new players and have already written him off. Rawkish behavior. :confused::annoyed:

We beat Liverpool in the pre season last year and how did we start the league?

This is just practice. Nothing more, nothing less. Games like these, players will be mentally off. Just getting a run around.
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How did Liverpool do last season after we beat them in the pre season?

I think some in here have way too much invested in Rice performing well for Arsenal because they’ve been insistent he’s a world class player, and if he turns out to be poor for Arsenal it makes their judgement look poor also. The first stage of realising they’re wrong is attacking other posters who call him out as being poor, then it’s the manager for not using him right, then it’s the club for not having the right manager to get the best out of him and finally it’s the player himself. We’re already at stage 1 so let’s see how long this goes on for before we hit stage 2.
 
Witchking said:
The amount of people coming in here after a pre season friendly with him playing in a new team, with new players and have already written him off. Rawkish behavior. :confused::annoyed:

We beat Liverpool in the pre season last year and how did we start the league?

This is just practice. Nothing more, nothing less. Games like these, players will be mentally off. Just getting a run around.
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This seems a strange point to make.

Rice’s main weak point is that he is too conservative / limited in possession, placing more pressure on his midfield partners to progress the play. He’s excelled in a team that plays on the defensive, but it’s not clear how well suited he is to a team that wants to dominate possession and build out from the back. His ability to sense danger and win the ball back is obvious, but that’s not enough. A game like yesterday is a good time to assess how that plays out. It gave credence to the primary doubts about him.

It‘s not like he just had an off game and uncharacteristically went missing in possession. He played exactly like he used to at West Ham and it looked like a bad fit. Combined with Havertz going walkabouts, they had no midfield to speak of. They might be able to fix that but to act like it isn’t a problem just because it’s pre-season is silly.
 
Witchking said:
The amount of people coming in here after a pre season friendly with him playing in a new team, with new players and have already written him off. Rawkish behavior. :confused::annoyed:

We beat Liverpool in the pre season last year and how did we start the league?

This is just practice. Nothing more, nothing less. Games like these, players will be mentally off. Just getting a run around.
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Better than them. After 3 games we had more points and more wins. :wenger:
 
CM10 said:
Havertz's versatility only works if he's any good in either of those positions.

For £70m you could sign an actual midfielder who can play the role well, then Havertz as a false 9 isn't better than any of Jesus, Nketiah and Balogun are as a striker.
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I think it will largely depend on whether or not Arteta can find the structure around him to thrive in those positions. I think it's a big ask TBH and I agree that he hasn't shown enough at this level to think he will deliver. IMO he's probably feeling a little lost after the disastrous season with Chelsea and now he's being asked to play a different position on top of coming into a new team etc. There is still plenty of time in the transfer market so perhaps we can sign another midfielder.
And Balogun leaving looks more likely than not so if Havertz in midfield doesn't work out there'll be plenty of opportunities for him in our front 3.
 
Brwned said:
It‘s not like he just had an off game and uncharacteristically went missing in possession. He played exactly like he used to at West Ham and it looked like a bad fit. Combined with Havertz going walkabouts, they had no midfield to speak of. They might be able to fix that but to act like it isn’t a problem just because it’s pre-season is silly.
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I think the point being made is that it's really hard to learn much from friendlies. For example, United had a good preseason last season then lost their first 2 games of the PL. ETH then went into panic mode and bought Casemiro and Antony.
That being said, I agree that playing both Rice and Havertz in midfield right now is probably too ambitious and unlikely to work. Both new players, been at the club for a couple of weeks - too much change at once in the most important area of the pitch. I think we do need to bring in another midfielder.
 
The 'Caf seems to be obsessing over our rivals' dubious transfers with this thread along with the Havertz and the Mudryk thread regularly topping the forum list.

Sure, it's a bit funny, but with the amount overpriced dross we've bought for the last 10 years should we really be pointing fingers?
 
Chip said:
The 'Caf seems to be obsessing over our rivals' dubious transfers with this thread along with the Havertz and the Mudryk thread regularly topping the forum list.

Sure, it's a bit funny, but with the amount overpriced dross we've bought for the last 10 years should we really be pointing fingers?
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Huh? So we can't talk about other teams transfers because Man Utd wasted money. Logic I guess.
 
Hammondo said:
I'm just very confused where the hype came from, same for Maguire.
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Might be a case of big fish in a small pond. Big player for a team like West Ham but it’s a lot different moving to a bigger club. Bit like Grealish at villa, struggled for a while at city, only started showing improvement last season.
 
Chip said:
The 'Caf seems to be obsessing over our rivals' dubious transfers with this thread along with the Havertz and the Mudryk thread regularly topping the forum list.

Sure, it's a bit funny, but with the amount overpriced dross we've bought for the last 10 years should we really be pointing fingers?
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Personally am just happy to be in the conversation of having any ”overpriced dross" at all. After so many lean years, Arsenal finally acting like a "big club" in the transfer market is a welcome change and IMO our ambition is refreshing to see.
 
Trigg said:
Huh? So we can't talk about other teams transfers because Man Utd wasted money. Logic I guess.
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Nah, probably just me being a bitter, old man. But I'd probably rather we'd spent said amounts for Rice, Mudryk, and Havertz than what we paid for Maguire, Sancho, van de Beek, or Lukaku just to name a few.
 
Rice has his qualities but everyone including arsenal fans know he's not worth 105m. And to be honest the majority of players are not the fees they are going for.
The biggest quality in Rice is his coverage and legs across the football field. He's an engine and his fitness levels are immense.
For me he doesn't progress the ball enough. Play enough forward passes and score enough. Now ofcourse he could do this for Arsenal playing in a better team. So the jury is still out.
He could be one of those players who has a long stint at arsenal without taking them to the next level. Not world class. Not winning major trophies but playing out his career there being consistent at an above average level.
He was very poor against France in the world cup when it mattered. He's been pretty poor against us as well but maybe that is because of Moyes and his tactics. I think he will do 'ok'.
 
He’s a very good player and I think he’ll do well for them but for that money you expect great or someone who will win you matches. He does have bonus of strong personality as well I guess.
 
GoonerGirly said:
Personally am just happy to be in the conversation of having any ”overpriced dross" at all. After so many lean years, Arsenal finally acting like a "big club" in the transfer market is a welcome change and IMO our ambition is refreshing to see.
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Pepe was 4 years ago and he was overpriced dross. Proper dross. It's nothing to be particularly braggy about.
 
Reddevildans said:
He was very poor against France in the world cup when it mattered.
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Thought he had an extremely poor final match for West Ham too. I think he'll be a success for Arsenal but whether he can go on to be world class is another debate.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Pepe was 4 years ago and he was overpriced dross. Proper dross. It's nothing to be particularly braggy about.
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When you never spend to this extent in one window, the club showing this kind of ambition feels kind of surreal. I was somewhat fearful that after making top 4, we'd rest on our laurels and not try to improve the squad. Very glad we're pushing even harder. Time will tell if we've spent well or not, but I'm glad we're going for it.
 
Rice works well for England because he is good at what he does and because Bellingham can take on the role of being the more expansive midfielder.. Not sure who can do that for him at Arsenal. Rice/Partey seems too conservative.
 
Let's see how he develops once he gets settled. I remember City fans been totally underwhelmed with Rodri in his first season, a downgrade on Fernandinho in nearly all departments apparently, now look at him.
 
It is no point to judge anyone after a pre season game. But I've said it so many times. He is nowhere near good enough for top sides. Just average player. Nothing more.

He would be behind every central midfielder we have. And he isn't even good enough to be starter at Arsenal. Far from it.
 
A lot of people saying it was only a friendly. Well where was he in the conference league final ? He's a good player but he's not going to revolutionise Arsenal.
 
Is he a bigger talent than Henderson was, when Liverpool signed him? Henderson was a few years younger.
 
90 + 5min said:
It is no point to judge anyone after a pre season game. But I've said it so many times. He is nowhere near good enough for top sides. Just average player. Nothing more.

He would be behind every central midfielder we have. And he isn't even good enough to be starter at Arsenal. Far from it.
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No white text? I had to double check I was in the Declan Rice thread. What on earth are you talking about?

Rice is one of the best performing defensive midfielders in the Premier League. He's easily above Fred, McTom and VDB. Situation depending, Mount and Eriksson too.

This isn't to say that Arsenal didn't wildy overpay for him, but Rice is so clearly more than an average player.

I can only assume you have an agenda, or you've litteraly never watched him play or even look at his stats.
 
AnotherLondonManc said:
No white text? I had to double check I was in the Declan Rice thread. What on earth are you talking about?

Rice is one of the best performing defensive midfielders in the Premier League. He's easily above Fred, McTom and VDB. Situation depending, Mount and Eriksson too.

This isn't to say that Arsenal didn't wildy overpay for him, but Rice is so clearly more than an average player.

I can only assume you have an agenda, or you've litteraly never watched him play or even look at his stats.
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That's not huge praise based on their performances here.
 
AnotherLondonManc said:
No white text? I had to double check I was in the Declan Rice thread. What on earth are you talking about?

Rice is one of the best performing defensive midfielders in the Premier League. He's easily above Fred, McTom and VDB. Situation depending, Mount and Eriksson too.

This isn't to say that Arsenal didn't wildy overpay for him, but Rice is so clearly more than an average player.

I can only assume you have an agenda, or you've litteraly never watched him play or even look at his stats.
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Absoluty not. As soon as he plays with a team not defending with 11 players everything gets exposed. We already seen that for England and we will see lot of it for Arsenal with starting yesterday. People will see that this year and they will suddenly wonder, why is Arsenal letting goals in. Why is it so open infront of their backline? I feel sorry for Tomas and Jorginho who will wonder how they can spend time on bench behind him. I can't understand they let Xakha go because of him but it is good for other teams.

I have no agenda. But I don't like overrating players. How they got so popular for some unknown reasons I will never know. We have and had our own players. Just to mention Pogba. Nothing more needs to be said.
 
Brwned said:
This seems a strange point to make.

Rice’s main weak point is that he is too conservative / limited in possession, placing more pressure on his midfield partners to progress the play. He’s excelled in a team that plays on the defensive, but it’s not clear how well suited he is to a team that wants to dominate possession and build out from the back. His ability to sense danger and win the ball back is obvious, but that’s not enough. A game like yesterday is a good time to assess how that plays out. It gave credence to the primary doubts about him.

It‘s not like he just had an off game and uncharacteristically went missing in possession. He played exactly like he used to at West Ham and it looked like a bad fit. Combined with Havertz going walkabouts, they had no midfield to speak of. They might be able to fix that but to act like it isn’t a problem just because it’s pre-season is silly.
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To call something a "problem" because of a single pre-season match when three new players were only in the squad for a week or two is silly. If Partey stays, it would be more likely that Partey-Rice are the pivot in midfield against teams like City, Liverpool, United anyway. I am skeptical of the Havertz signing but think it's quite reasonable to not make any judgment about whether something is a "problem" or not until players have time to train under a new system with their new teammates. It's unreasonable to expect zero adjustment period for the new players to really gauge how well they fit. Rice is the one that should adjust the quickest so if this persists a month or two into the real season then judgments can be made. Of course, no matter what happens, positive, negative, or in the middle, someone will claim they knew it all along.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
To call something a "problem" because of a single pre-season match when three new players were only in the squad for a week or two is silly. If Partey stays, it would be more likely that Partey-Rice are the pivot in midfield against teams like City, Liverpool, United anyway. I am skeptical of the Havertz signing but think it's quite reasonable to not make any judgment about whether something is a "problem" or not until players have time to train under a new system with their new teammates. It's unreasonable to expect zero adjustment period for the new players to really gauge how well they fit. Rice is the one that should adjust the quickest so if this persists a month or two into the real season then judgments can be made. Of course, no matter what happens, positive, negative, or in the middle, someone will claim they knew it all along.
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There's also no-one actually thinking that under a new coach, playing in a more attacking system, training and playing with better players, playing against better players in the Champions League etc, that the player, you know, could actually improve as well!
 
Gringo said:
A lot of people saying it was only a friendly. Well where was he in the conference league final ? He's a good player but he's not going to revolutionise Arsenal.
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I said this before, but I thought Ambrabat was so much better than Rice. In fact, I barely remember Rice's name being mentioned in the final.

I do think he will eventually come good for arsenal, just not sure he's a £105m midfielder. In the same vein that Pogba wasn't a £89m midfielder.
 
GoonerBear said:
There's also no-one actually thinking that under a new coach, playing in a more attacking system, training and playing with better players, playing against better players in the Champions League etc, that the player, you know, could actually improve as well!
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His England appearances works against this
 
Ducklegs said:
Some youtubers have said there is a lot more to come from him in a side where he doesn’t have to defend all the time, I personally have not seen any evidence that he some repressed midfield meastro.
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Always makes me laugh when people think it's that binary.

Moyes' compact underdog system is perfect for defensive minded players, look at the players that left his Everton and were all at sea at the big boys, and that was in an era you could somewhat get away with not being technically excellent even at the very top clubs.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
To call something a "problem" because of a single pre-season match when three new players were only in the squad for a week or two is silly. If Partey stays, it would be more likely that Partey-Rice are the pivot in midfield against teams like City, Liverpool, United anyway. I am skeptical of the Havertz signing but think it's quite reasonable to not make any judgment about whether something is a "problem" or not until players have time to train under a new system with their new teammates. It's unreasonable to expect zero adjustment period for the new players to really gauge how well they fit. Rice is the one that should adjust the quickest so if this persists a month or two into the real season then judgments can be made. Of course, no matter what happens, positive, negative, or in the middle, someone will claim they knew it all along.
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People aren’t calling it a problem because of a pre season game though. They’re things people speculated about before they stepped foot on a pitch. That’s the bit I don’t get.

If the argument is that people shouldn’t speculate about football until sufficient evidence has been gathered to make serious judgments then sure, I get the point. It’s not a very rigorous analytical approach. But then that isn’t most people’s intention when they’re talking about footy.

There’s speculation about who would score more goals at City: Haaland or Kane. There’s loads of variables involved, lots of uncertainty. We know how Haaland fits in, we don’t know how the team would have to adjust to make it work for Kane. Maybe he’s too slow, maybe he’d clog yo the middle of the pitch, maybe his body would struggle with the press. Or maybe he’d score bucketloads. These are just things we choose to imagine.

There were concerns about Rice before he played. It’s not some knee jerk reaction to a pre season game. The pre season game did nothing to dispute those concerns, it wasn’t the source of them. Same for Havertz, same for Arsenal’s theoretical new look midfield.

If you don’t want people to speculate about the unknowns in football then it seems odd to come to a place where that’s one of the main types of discussion.
 
humdinger said:
He’s a very good player and I think he’ll do well for them but for that money you expect great or someone who will win you matches. He does have bonus of strong personality as well I guess.
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I swear this has been said so much that it has become a fact. Where does it come from?
 
As an Arsenal fan I said many times this guy is overrated and could seriously disrupt the current project.

I feel defensively he's a good midfielder with an engine that covers the ground well, intercepts and good aerially.
In possession there's a player who drives with the ball and has nice touches sometimes. But overrall, Rice lacks the technical precision, control and vision for an effective 6 in a possession-based system.

The outlay for him is comical and shows Arsenal after all these years still haven't replaced Wengers genius and footballing knowledge. Of course, I won't fully judge in pre-season; but this could become a calamitous transfer.
 
cyberman said:
His England appearances works against this
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Do they? Well first that's dependent on how you rate Southgate as a manger and if you think England play an attacking system.
But he's a mainstay of a team that made the Euro final when he was 22 and World Cup quarter final the year after.
He was Man of the Match when England beat Italy in Italy only a few months ago.

Dancfc said:
In terms of being a club captain many West Ham fans thought he was a massive downgrade on Noble.
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And many rate him higher. Also, they are misty eyed about Noble because he's a 1 club man and stayed with the club his whole career. Do you not think if Rice was West Ham captain another 10 years perception of him would change?!
 
Witchking said:
The amount of people coming in here after a pre season friendly with him playing in a new team, with new players and have already written him off. Rawkish behavior. :confused::annoyed:

We beat Liverpool in the pre season last year and how did we start the league?

This is just practice. Nothing more, nothing less. Games like these, players will be mentally off. Just getting a run around.
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I think people make assessments on pre season for the same reasons as they do watching a youth game. Very few people watch youth matches or preseason friendly matches. As a result those that do, look to jump on them as some kind of pretend insight into a player.

Most of us will probably know someone who watches the youth set up religiously and every year for the last 25 and insisted that every season there were about 9 players from the academy bound to break into the first team, based purely on his insight from watching the youth teams. Never mind almost none of them ended up lacing their boots for the first team.

Same with pre-season games. It's not that anyone believes they tell you anything but there's a section of fans who like the fact hardly anyone watches them, and based on that they will pretend these matches give you some important and crucial insight that only die hard fans who watch them, will ever get.


It'll be March, 7-months balls deep into a hard and arduous campaign. A player will misplace a pass and someone, somewhere will turn to his mate and say "He misplaced one like that in pre-season in the Bobbitybibbits Cup"
 
In my view, the days of a pure destroyer at number 6 are over. To play for any top team you also need to be useful in the first two phases of build-up. Rodri, Jorginho, Busquets, Kroos, Kimmich, Fabinho etc. are all good to great at ball progression from deep.

Partey does this pretty well and as a result was one of Arsenal’s better players last season. I’ve never seen Rice, either for West Ham or England, do this remotely well. It’s why England had to bring Henderson on against the USA to get a foothold in the game, because neither Rice nor Bellingham could cope with their press.

He’s reasonable at carrying the ball, but unless Odegaard and/or Havertz start covering him when he goes on a burst, his signing is likely to upset the balance that Partey-Xhaka-Odegaard had.

I don’t believe he’s a bad player, but for a top team, he’s not progressive enough as a 6 and lacks creativity as a number 8. He’s a Kante: strong at covering ground and carrying but needs support in passing and a partner who sits and allows him to roam about. Better in a 4231 than a 433 with two free 8s. I believe Rice will destabilise the balance that Arsenal had last year.
 
sifi36 said:
In my view, the days of a pure destroyer at number 6 are over. To play for any top team you also need to be useful in the first two phases of build-up. Rodri, Jorginho, Busquets, Kroos, Kimmich, Fabinho etc. are all good to great at ball progression from deep.

Partey does this pretty well and as a result was one of Arsenal’s better players last season. I’ve never seen Rice, either for West Ham or England, do this remotely well. It’s why England had to bring Henderson on against the USA to get a foothold in the game, because neither Rice nor Bellingham could cope with their press.

He’s reasonable at carrying the ball, but unless Odegaard and/or Havertz start covering him when he goes on a burst, his signing is likely to upset the balance that Partey-Xhaka-Odegaard had.

I don’t believe he’s a bad player, but for a top team, he’s not progressive enough as a 6 and lacks creativity as a number 8. He’s a Kante: strong at covering ground and carrying but needs support in passing and a partner who sits and allows him to roam about. Better in a 4231 than a 433 with two free 8s. I believe Rice will destabilise the balance that Arsenal had last year.
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You're forgetting our whole system relies in a full back coming into midfield and playing as the other partner
 
sifi36 said:
In my view, the days of a pure destroyer at number 6 are over. To play for any top team you also need to be useful in the first two phases of build-up. Rodri, Jorginho, Busquets, Kroos, Kimmich, Fabinho etc. are all good to great at ball progression from deep.

Partey does this pretty well and as a result was one of Arsenal’s better players last season. I’ve never seen Rice, either for West Ham or England, do this remotely well. It’s why England had to bring Henderson on against the USA to get a foothold in the game, because neither Rice nor Bellingham could cope with their press.

He’s reasonable at carrying the ball, but unless Odegaard and/or Havertz start covering him when he goes on a burst, his signing is likely to upset the balance that Partey-Xhaka-Odegaard had.

I don’t believe he’s a bad player, but for a top team, he’s not progressive enough as a 6 and lacks creativity as a number 8. He’s a Kante: strong at covering ground and carrying but needs support in passing and a partner who sits and allows him to roam about. Better in a 4231 than a 433 with two free 8s. I believe Rice will destabilise the balance that Arsenal had last year.
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I don't know but didn't see lot of rice' games but kante. Where you get this idea. Either you overestimate rice or undermine kante. There is nothing similar between them in style, position or impact on general play.
 
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