Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player

GoonerBear said:
There's also no-one actually thinking that under a new coach, playing in a more attacking system, training and playing with better players, playing against better players in the Champions League etc, that the player, you know, could actually improve as well!
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That's a very reasonable take for sure. I think its prudent to really see how things develop before making definitive conclusions the way some are.

Brwned said:
People aren’t calling it a problem because of a pre season game though. They’re things people speculated about before they stepped foot on a pitch. That’s the bit I don’t get.

If the argument is that people shouldn’t speculate about football until sufficient evidence has been gathered to make serious judgments then sure, I get the point. It’s not a very rigorous analytical approach. But then that isn’t most people’s intention when they’re talking about footy.

There’s speculation about who would score more goals at City: Haaland or Kane. There’s loads of variables involved, lots of uncertainty. We know how Haaland fits in, we don’t know how the team would have to adjust to make it work for Kane. Maybe he’s too slow, maybe he’d clog yo the middle of the pitch, maybe his body would struggle with the press. Or maybe he’d score bucketloads. These are just things we choose to imagine.

There were concerns about Rice before he played. It’s not some knee jerk reaction to a pre season game. The pre season game did nothing to dispute those concerns, it wasn’t the source of them. Same for Havertz, same for Arsenal’s theoretical new look midfield.

If you don’t want people to speculate about the unknowns in football then it seems odd to come to a place where that’s one of the main types of discussion.
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There are definitely knee-jerk reactions to a single pre-season game when players have only had a week or two with a new squad. And you trying to dismiss people taking a more reasonable and prudent view as "silly" is, in itself, a very silly take considering the context. I wouldn't expect any pre-season game to really tell all that much about the new players given the incredibly short amount of time they've been in the squad. Of course, that doesn't mean people won't speculate but that speculation is basically meaningless at this stage.
 
The Mitcher said:
Oh please, let's not bring race into this. It was NEVER about race, Manchester United players are ALWAYS put under more scrutiny than anyone else. Beckham had it far worse than Pogba ever had when he got sent off in the world cup and he's as white as they get. Rice plays for Arsenal, they are nowhere near as big as us and never will be, so journalists won't bother.
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Try telling that to Raheem Sterling.

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/raheem-sterling-racial-abuse

Or Rashford, Saka and Sancho after the World Cup.

https://www.tntsports.co.uk/footbal...r-to-shootouts-says-ga_sto8980891/story.shtml

It's NEVER about race until it is, right?

https://news.sky.com/story/manchest...pogba-after-missed-penalty-at-wolves-11789766

Or maybe it's just NEVER about your race so you don't notice.
 
Thing is, if Rice comes into a midfield completely remade in the system, it’s not really fair to judge him on what came before. He’s not come in and replaced Xhaka in a double pivot system, he’s come in and been put as a single pivot with an 8 in front of him, in Havertz, who is about as lightweight and defensively useless as an 8 can be. Essentially doing the job for two. It’s going to leave him exposed a lot. For Arsenal’s sake I don’t like that they’ve changed their system. It doesn’t make much of any sense to me.

If I was Arteta, I would be playing Jorginho as the playmaking 6, Rice as the box to box 8 in a busied double pivot system, and Odegaard as the 10. Havertz would provide cover in the 10 position and across the forward line.

To me, that Jorginho, Rice, Odegaard midfield would be exceptionally well balanced. A superb passing range and game reading from Jorginho, a very complete box to box midfielder in Rice - a real midfield general - and one of the best 10s in world football. Seems so obvious to me. You’ve then got Partey who can cover the Jorginho/Rice positions, and Havertz for the Odegaard role. Very well balanced, and real depth. I just don’t understand this Rice, Havertz, Odegaard set up. It’s changing the system from something that was really successful last year, it’s making them more defensively vulnerable, and it’s limiting the impact of their record signing. Rice as a 6/8 hybrid (box to box), is an amazing player. Rice as a sitting 6, is a good player.

Seems so self limiting, this notion.
 
simonhch said:
(long post right above this)
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I think the way to look at it, based on the pre-season friendly against us and their signings and what Arteta seems to like, that Timber or Zinchenko will play in midfield a lot with Rice in a W-M, so Havertz will get into the box a lot, and I imagine they don't want Odegaard and Saka too far from each other as they seem to combine well.

The thing I don't get from them is why they couldn't just sell Nketiah to some Prem side desperate for a #9 and keep Balogun to give them a goal threat to rotate with or come on for Jesus.
 
NoPace said:
I think the way to look at it, based on the pre-season friendly against us and their signings and what Arteta seems to like, that Timber or Zinchenko will play in midfield a lot with Rice in a W-M, so Havertz will get into the box a lot, and I imagine they don't want Odegaard and Saka too far from each other as they seem to combine well.

The thing I don't get from them is why they couldn't just sell Nketiah to some Prem side desperate for a #9 and keep Balogun to give them a goal threat to rotate with or come on for Jesus.
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I suspect it's loyalty. Nketiah showed up when Jesus was out, did well and performed. He bided his time, waited patiently etc
conversely, balogun, while undoubtedly more talented and a better striker, has shown impatience and it would be hard to keep him happy sitting on the bench as he wants to play.

In summary, squad management reasons.
 
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The system is:

Ramsdale
Saliba - Gabriel
White - Rice - Zinchenko
Saka - Odegaard - Jesus - Havertz - Martinelli

The christmas tree formation.. but in reality this is where everyone will end up playing positionally. The player furthest forward will either likely be Jesus or Havertz depending on who makes the runs.​
 
simonhch said:
Thing is, if Rice comes into a midfield completely remade in the system, it’s not really fair to judge him on what came before. He’s not come in and replaced Xhaka in a double pivot system, he’s come in and been put as a single pivot with an 8 in front of him, in Havertz, who is about as lightweight and defensively useless as an 8 can be. Essentially doing the job for two. It’s going to leave him exposed a lot. For Arsenal’s sake I don’t like that they’ve changed their system. It doesn’t make much of any sense to me.

If I was Arteta, I would be playing Jorginho as the playmaking 6, Rice as the box to box 8 in a busied double pivot system, and Odegaard as the 10. Havertz would provide cover in the 10 position and across the forward line.

To me, that Jorginho, Rice, Odegaard midfield would be exceptionally well balanced. A superb passing range and game reading from Jorginho, a very complete box to box midfielder in Rice - a real midfield general - and one of the best 10s in world football. Seems so obvious to me. You’ve then got Partey who can cover the Jorginho/Rice positions, and Havertz for the Odegaard role. Very well balanced, and real depth. I just don’t understand this Rice, Havertz, Odegaard set up. It’s changing the system from something that was really successful last year, it’s making them more defensively vulnerable, and it’s limiting the impact of their record signing. Rice as a 6/8 hybrid (box to box), is an amazing player. Rice as a sitting 6, is a good player.

Seems so self limiting, this notion.
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I think people seem to think the Rice - Odegaard - Havertz thing is set in stone, new big money signings so they must play, but I don't think that's necessarily the case.

All year people have spoken about our lack of depth, that we'll suffer with Champions League games, that teams will start to figure us out etc. Well we've signed 3 flexible players allow us to change things up between games and even in games, while providing that depth that everyone acknowledged we lacked.

At the start of last season we had Partey / Elneny / Lokonga for the 6, we now have Partey / Rice / Jorginho.

For the attacking midfield we basically had Xhaka / Odegaard and behind them Vieira and Lokonga with Smith-Rowe injured.

We now have the Odegaard / Havertz / Trossard / Smith-Rowe / Vieira with the option of going more defensive by putting Rice or that there.

I believe we'll see Arteta rotate a bit more, I think he realises you can't ask players to play 50+ games a season without injuries or drop of in performances.
 
Nish115 said:
The system is:

Ramsdale
Saliba - Gabriel
White - Rice - Zinchenko
Saka - Odegaard - Jesus - Havertz - Martinelli

The christmas tree formation.. but in reality this is where everyone will end up playing positionally. The player furthest forward will either likely be Jesus or Havertz depending on who makes the runs.​
Click to expand...

This is one of our potential setups.

You can replace Havertz with Partey, White with Timber, Zinchenko with Kiwior, Jesus with Havertz, Saka with Jesus, and other combinations and remaking the team formations. The key is to adapt the team for the different opposition, instead of playing the same team almost every week and give the opposition a chance to predict and plan for what we are going to do.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Try telling that to Raheem Sterling.

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/raheem-sterling-racial-abuse

Or Rashford, Saka and Sancho after the World Cup.

https://www.tntsports.co.uk/footbal...r-to-shootouts-says-ga_sto8980891/story.shtml

It's NEVER about race until it is, right?

https://news.sky.com/story/manchest...pogba-after-missed-penalty-at-wolves-11789766

Or maybe it's just NEVER about your race so you don't notice.
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Only one of these is about journalists, and it is really reaching.
 
sifi36 said:
In my view, the days of a pure destroyer at number 6 are over. To play for any top team you also need to be useful in the first two phases of build-up. Rodri, Jorginho, Busquets, Kroos, Kimmich, Fabinho etc. are all good to great at ball progression from deep.

Partey does this pretty well and as a result was one of Arsenal’s better players last season. I’ve never seen Rice, either for West Ham or England, do this remotely well. It’s why England had to bring Henderson on against the USA to get a foothold in the game, because neither Rice nor Bellingham could cope with their press.

He’s reasonable at carrying the ball, but unless Odegaard and/or Havertz start covering him when he goes on a burst, his signing is likely to upset the balance that Partey-Xhaka-Odegaard had.

I don’t believe he’s a bad player, but for a top team, he’s not progressive enough as a 6 and lacks creativity as a number 8. He’s a Kante: strong at covering ground and carrying but needs support in passing and a partner who sits and allows him to roam about. Better in a 4231 than a 433 with two free 8s. I believe Rice will destabilise the balance that Arsenal had last year.
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Casemiero
 
GoonerBear said:
I think people seem to think the Rice - Odegaard - Havertz thing is set in stone, new big money signings so they must play, but I don't think that's necessarily the case.

All year people have spoken about our lack of depth, that we'll suffer with Champions League games, that teams will start to figure us out etc. Well we've signed 3 flexible players allow us to change things up between games and even in games, while providing that depth that everyone acknowledged we lacked.

At the start of last season we had Partey / Elneny / Lokonga for the 6, we now have Partey / Rice / Jorginho.

For the attacking midfield we basically had Xhaka / Odegaard and behind them Vieira and Lokonga with Smith-Rowe injured.

We now have the Odegaard / Havertz / Trossard / Smith-Rowe / Vieira with the option of going more defensive by putting Rice or that there.

I believe we'll see Arteta rotate a bit more, I think he realises you can't ask players to play 50+ games a season without injuries or drop of in performances.
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I think what could sometimes be a possibility tactically is in the build up Rice drops in between the CBs and Timber and Zinchenko both invert.

For all the talk with Rice and Havertz I think Timber may end up your signing of the summer, he's basically a White upgrade and high quality Saliba/midfield cover rolled into one.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Not in the British media.

He's English. And white.
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Comments like these are just plain daft. Pogba was the world record transfer, playing for the biggest club in the country with a huge brand behind him. Pogba bought into that as much as anyone.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Casemiero
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Amongst all midfielders (including attacking midfielders) with at least 20 Premier League starts last season, Casemiro ranked:
  • 1st for progressive passes per 90
  • 1st for forward passes per 90
  • 6th for passes into the final third per 90
  • 9th for through balls per 90
  • 13th for goals per 90
  • 16th for assists per 90
  • 18th for expected assists per 90
  • 18th for passes into the penalty area per 90
He is much more than a pure destroyer, he just looks that way because his defensive ability is so, so good.
 
sifi36 said:
Amongst all midfielders (including attacking midfielders) with at least 20 Premier League starts last season, Casemiro ranked:
  • 1st for progressive passes per 90
  • 1st for forward passes per 90
  • 6th for passes into the final third per 90
  • 9th for through balls per 90
  • 13th for goals per 90
  • 16th for assists per 90
  • 18th for expected assists per 90
  • 18th for passes into the penalty area per 90
He is much more than a pure destroyer, he just looks that way because his defensive ability is so, so good.
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Bro, Casemiro is just a destroyer, full stop.

The first two first placed metrics do raise an eyebrow, but the eye test and analysis of his game show that he is there to break up play and start transitions. He doesnt circulate the ball, he doesnt restart attacks from dead ball situations or creates spaces between opposition lines with his passing and movement.

All of this is fine by the way, because it works for United. One thing we need to understand though, that Casemiro doesnt play like Rodri or Partey. Rodri and Partey do what Casemiro does, yes, but also more for their respective sides.
 
Zagoon said:
Bro, Casemiro is just a destroyer, full stop.

The first two first placed metrics do raise an eyebrow, but the eye test and analysis of his game show that he is there to break up play and start transitions. He doesnt circulate the ball, he doesnt restart attacks from dead ball situations with his passing and movement.

All of this is fine by the way, because it works for United. One thing we need to understand though, that Casemiro doesnt play like Rodri or Partey. Rodri and Partey do what Casemiro does, yes, but also more for their respective sides.
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I didn't imply with my post that Casemiro is a tempo setting midfielder (his passing is too risky and erratic for that and he isn't a great receiver/ball carrier under pressure). He offers way more on the ball than a pure destroyer, just further up the pitch than what someone with his defensive ability would ordinarily suggest.

Edit: Palhinha and Gueye would be current examples of a pure destroyer.

The data for midfielders with 5+ possession adjusted interceptions per 90 (easiest way to filter for defensive midfielders):

deeper-mids.png
 
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sifi36 said:
I didn't imply with my post that Casemiro is a tempo setting midfielder (his passing is too risky and erratic for that). He offers way more on the ball than a pure destroyer, just further up the pitch than what someone with his defensive ability would ordinarily suggest.
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Well I would need to watch him closer then, but I do take your word for it.

Casemiro is perfect for your system, and with Mount coming in as a potential double pivot partner, that makes for a strong midfield base to win the ball and start counter attacks.
 
sifi36 said:
Amongst all midfielders (including attacking midfielders) with at least 20 Premier League starts last season, Casemiro ranked:
  • 1st for progressive passes per 90
  • 1st for forward passes per 90
  • 6th for passes into the final third per 90
  • 9th for through balls per 90
  • 13th for goals per 90
  • 16th for assists per 90
  • 18th for expected assists per 90
  • 18th for passes into the penalty area per 90
He is much more than a pure destroyer, he just looks that way because his defensive ability is so, so good.
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He’s a destroyer unless you think destroyer only means Makelele.
 
Zagoon said:
Bro, Casemiro is just a destroyer, full stop.
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It really depends what you mean by that, but no he's not only a destroyer. His passing range is better than expected, and he has some creativity in his locker. I think he's been given a bit more ball playing responsibilities at Utd than he had at Real (where his role was indeed to pass asap to Modric or Kroos), and while he's not a playmaker or anything, his ability on the ball is somewhat downplayed.
 
Zagoon said:
Bro, Casemiro is just a destroyer, full stop.

The first two first placed metrics do raise an eyebrow, but the eye test and analysis of his game show that he is there to break up play and start transitions. He doesnt circulate the ball, he doesnt restart attacks from dead ball situations or creates spaces between opposition lines with his passing and movement.

All of this is fine by the way, because it works for United. One thing we need to understand though, that Casemiro doesnt play like Rodri or Partey. Rodri and Partey do what Casemiro does, yes, but also more for their respective sides.
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He quite obviously isn't
 
Zagoon said:
Bro, Casemiro is just a destroyer, full stop.

The first two first placed metrics do raise an eyebrow, but the eye test and analysis of his game show that he is there to break up play and start transitions. He doesnt circulate the ball, he doesnt restart attacks from dead ball situations or creates spaces between opposition lines with his passing and movement.

All of this is fine by the way, because it works for United. One thing we need to understand though, that Casemiro doesnt play like Rodri or Partey. Rodri and Partey do what Casemiro does, yes, but also more for their respective sides.
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Casemiro doesn't play like Rodri but not sure why Partey is clubbed together with Rodri.
 
Seems like semantics to me. Casimero is a defensive midfielder, destroyer doesn't really mean anything I can identify.

He just plays a modified role compared to what he did at Real Madrid. Same skillset but additional expectations that are less narrowly defined. Different football club, different league, different partnerships, different manager. I think possibly fans from other clubs that don't watch too closely possibly wouldn't pick up on it but he doesn't play like he did when he had Kroos and Modric next to him. How can you, if you're next to Eriksen, McTominay, Fred etc you have to take a bit more responsibility for other areas.
 
roonster09 said:
Casemiro doesn't play like Rodri but not sure why Partey is clubbed together with Rodri.
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Because Partey and Rodri both play in a similar way.

Which isnt surprising because City and Arsenal play similar ball.
 
Did you know, Casemiro only had 5 goal involvements less than Jesus last season?

And these are the people that will spend all season defending Rice
 
Zagoon said:
Bro, Casemiro is just a destroyer, full stop.

The first two first placed metrics do raise an eyebrow, but the eye test and analysis of his game show that he is there to break up play and start transitions. He doesnt circulate the ball, he doesnt restart attacks from dead ball situations or creates spaces between opposition lines with his passing and movement.

All of this is fine by the way, because it works for United. One thing we need to understand though, that Casemiro doesnt play like Rodri or Partey. Rodri and Partey do what Casemiro does, yes, but also more for their respective sides.
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You need to watch more of Casemiro play.
 
Anyone who says that Casemiro is merely a destroyer obviously didn't see much of him last season
 
People, Casemiro is a destroyer. There is nothing wrong with being that sort of player by the way. Its a very important role in a team that needs it in their system.

Here is an article on what a destroyer is, its the first googled link by the way.

https://themastermindsite.com/2022/07/25/explaining-the-midfield-destroyer-player-role-analysis/

Midfield Destroyers typically play at the base of a midfield three, holding primary responsibilities for breaking up the play and putting in challenges before the opposition advance toward the defensive line. They are not only responsible for screening their back-line as they should within our ‘Anchor’ umbrella, but they must also be active members within defensive phases, and optimal ball-winners that excel in defense over any other facet of the game. They are often the hard-men in the team, the ones that provide the added steel, gusto, guts and perhaps even glory. They are fearless, spartan-like players that want to kick everything in their wake, whether it be fair to do so or not. Historically, they have even been some of the most hated footballers, especially by rival fans, for their role in disrupting attacks, and their gamesmanship in breaking up the play.

What Casemiro adds is an ability to immediately start transitions and that is perfect for what United are built to do. You want space, and to exploit that space, and Casemiro is a master at that with his verticality.
 
roonster09 said:
Casemiro doesn't play like Rodri but not sure why Partey is clubbed together with Rodri.
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Thank you.

Comparisons to Rodri might be fair, even though they play very different types of football, but I don’t even know why Partey is in this discussion.

Casemiro was more of a destroyer at Madrid because Modric and Kroos were so good that he didn’t even need to do more than break up play and pass the ball. But everybody who watched Real regularly knows that there was much more to his game and he showed it on occasions.

And he showed it last season too with us, he’s a superb defensive midfielder but he’s quality in the rest of the game as well. He launched a number of attacks with one touch passes over the opposition defense, scored goals and provided assists at a rate that surprises everyone.

That said, now that we’re reshuffling our midfield a bit, EtH will want Casemiro to stay more at the back.
 
Zagoon said:
People, Casemiro is a destroyer. There is nothing wrong with being that sort of player by the way. Its a very important role in a team that needs it in their system.

Here is an article on what a destroyer is, its the first googled link by the way.

https://themastermindsite.com/2022/07/25/explaining-the-midfield-destroyer-player-role-analysis/

Midfield Destroyers typically play at the base of a midfield three, holding primary responsibilities for breaking up the play and putting in challenges before the opposition advance toward the defensive line. They are not only responsible for screening their back-line as they should within our ‘Anchor’ umbrella, but they must also be active members within defensive phases, and optimal ball-winners that excel in defense over any other facet of the game. They are often the hard-men in the team, the ones that provide the added steel, gusto, guts and perhaps even glory. They are fearless, spartan-like players that want to kick everything in their wake, whether it be fair to do so or not. Historically, they have even been some of the most hated footballers, especially by rival fans, for their role in disrupting attacks, and their gamesmanship in breaking up the play.

What Casemiro adds is an ability to immediately start transitions and that is perfect for what United are built to do. You want space, and to exploit that space, and Casemiro is a master at that with his verticality.
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Gabriel Jesus is a deep lying forward due to the amount and way he scores goals.
 
Nish115 said:
The system is:

Ramsdale
Saliba - Gabriel
White - Rice - Zinchenko
Saka - Odegaard - Jesus - Havertz - Martinelli

The christmas tree formation.. but in reality this is where everyone will end up playing positionally. The player furthest forward will either likely be Jesus or Havertz depending on who makes the runs.​
Click to expand...


You are not getting top 4 this season for sure :D , this team is mid .
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Between this and your posts on Rice and Havertz, I'm now pretty much convinced you don't watch games and just go by preconceived ideas of things you think are correct.
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Dont watch football games you say :)

Trust me mate, I do watch football and I do a little more too.

What I think you are actually saying is that my opinion dont align with your opinions on football. And that's ok, as that what a forum is for ultimately.
 
Zagoon said:
People, Casemiro is a destroyer. There is nothing wrong with being that sort of player by the way. Its a very important role in a team that needs it in their system.

Here is an article on what a destroyer is, its the first googled link by the way.

https://themastermindsite.com/2022/07/25/explaining-the-midfield-destroyer-player-role-analysis/

Midfield Destroyers typically play at the base of a midfield three, holding primary responsibilities for breaking up the play and putting in challenges before the opposition advance toward the defensive line. They are not only responsible for screening their back-line as they should within our ‘Anchor’ umbrella, but they must also be active members within defensive phases, and optimal ball-winners that excel in defense over any other facet of the game. They are often the hard-men in the team, the ones that provide the added steel, gusto, guts and perhaps even glory. They are fearless, spartan-like players that want to kick everything in their wake, whether it be fair to do so or not. Historically, they have even been some of the most hated footballers, especially by rival fans, for their role in disrupting attacks, and their gamesmanship in breaking up the play.

What Casemiro adds is an ability to immediately start transitions and that is perfect for what United are built to do. You want space, and to exploit that space, and Casemiro is a master at that with his verticality.
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You'll have to forgive me for not accepting the definition a website none of us have heard of. Many observers and pundits have expressed surprise at the fact that Casemiro offered so much in possession last season compared to their understanding that he was a pure destroyer, despite the fact that his statistical profile at Madrid didn't support this assertion anyway.

The reason this conversation started was my statement that pure destroyers have no place in a modern progressive side - you have to offer something in possession too, which I do not believe Rice has shown in his career thus far. Casemiro was brought up as an example of someone who potentially doesn't fit with my assertion on the basis that he isn't the best at deep build-up, a statement that I would agree with. My argument is that Casemiro does offer something in possession, as can be seen by the fact that he ranks highly for progressive passing, passes into the final third, assists and expected assists. Whilst this isn't what one would ordinarily expect from a defensive midfielder, it means he doesn't falls into the archetype of a pure destroyer and therefore my original assertion stands.
 
Also, I understand why people think Casemiro is a destroyer, his defensive traits are his strongest, but he can also pass and shoot quite well so it's a bit harsh to label him as just a destroyer.
 
Nish115 said:
Also, I understand why people think Casemiro is a destroyer, his defensive traits are his strongest, but he can also pass and shoot quite well so it's a bit harsh to label him as just a destroyer.
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That's a much more balanced post, and it's quite accurate. His defensive traits are elite level (probably top 3 in football), but his ball playing is also very good - just not to the same level. He isn't just a destroyer once you start actually watching him.
 
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