Decades Draft Tournament : AldoRaine18 vs Brwned

[Moby]

Cracking teams on paper, to be fair. I think a Vidic - Hansen partnership would work against most attacks because they'd have very complementary...however, against Brwned's attacking options would Vidic be suited as much as a proper ball playing centre back? And interestingly enough despite the modern game evolving...both have gone for out and out number 9s.

I've explained in tactics that his role is mainly be the hard man, put early tackles in and win the aerial battles. Hansen is the ball playing defender who will be the more composed one.

Currently Brehme is redundant, he has no one to cross to, his overlapping can only yield a header from Charlton who has Rijkaard to track him and it will be tough for him to win a header against Rijkaard. While on the other hand Cruyff has isolated Bergomi completely while Muller is 1v1 with Rio and Zico pulling the strings.

 

[Moby]

Not sure I see how that tactical change makes much of a difference really. It's not like Cruyff was a traditional left winger before that. He was always playing further forward and would drift infield.

It's a fine change, he's a lot more direct, dragging players around while earlier I had him as running things from midfield in tandem with Zico. You are right it is not a huge chance but right now he is just nowhere close to Brwned's CMs, so Edwards has lost sight of him and it is Bergomi 1v1 with Cruyff having the option to pass it to Muller/Zico/Gullit all in scoring areas.

 

[Fergus' son]

Who's vote did you lose because of it?

Go back and read it, you said that Vidic is better than Bergomi, you then later added 'plus he is facing worse attackers' (something along those lines). This makes people think that you believe Vidic is better than Bergomi independent of this game, which contradicts your previous assertions and casts doubts over everything else you have said.

Fair enough, English isnt your first language, but I'm not entirely convinced of that excuse as you've demonstrated on numerous occasions that you have a great grasp of the language and can concoct great football posts using it...

Anyway, moving on...

 

[Spoony]

I've explained in tactics that his role is mainly be the hard man, put early tackles in and win the aerial battles. Hansen is the ball playing defender who will be the more composed one.

Currently Brehme is redundant, he has no one to cross to, his overlapping can only yield a header from Charlton who has Rijkaard to track him and it will be tough for him to win a header against Rijkaard. While on the other hand Cruyff has isolated Bergomi completely while Muller is 1v1 with Rio and Zico pulling the strings.

Ahhh but I suspect you wouldn't exactly be dealing with Stoke, the game would be played on the floor. The hard man thing...yeah but do modern laws/rules allow such tactics. Does Vidic stamp his authority in the current game as an intimidating CB? And what were your striking options?

 

[Moby]

Ahhh but I suspect you wouldn't exactly be dealing with Stoke, the game would be played on the floor. The hard man thing...yeah but do modern laws/rules allow such tactics. Does Vidic stamp his authority in the current game as an intimidating CB? And what were your striking options?

I don't see him stamping his authority in this game. Mainly as Brwned hasn't given me much. Hansen can deal with Villa pretty much himself and Best will do well against Zambrotta, Vidic is reduced to helping Zambrotta out most of the time and hoping he gets his last ditch tackles right. The game is going to be on the ground, yes, but Brehme's main attacking weapon is aerial crossing which is not of much use here. So I don't see much point of doubling up against Zambrotta, Best alone is enough to take advantage there.

As for striking options, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Pele, Eusebio etc were all gone, which are the top tier number 9s, so I opted for the goal machine in Muller, he really guarantees a goal. Pretty happy with that.

 

[antohan]

Obviously I had to change things as I've taken a 8-2 hit after going 5-1 up.

Wow, really?

I have to say, your case in the OP was far more impressive.

You probably lost the mud slinging contest there. I see your devious counter to Brwned quoting storey by quoting Balu resulted in them both voting against you

 

[Moby]

Wow, really?

I have to say, your case in the OP was far more impressive.

You probably lost the mud slinging contest there. I see your devious counter to Brwned quoting storey by quoting Balu resulted in them both voting against you

Talk about shooting your own foot.

 

[Theon]

As for striking options, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Pele, Eusebio etc were all gone, which are the top tier number 9s, so I opted for the goal machine in Muller, he really guarantees a goal. Pretty happy with that.

Muller is definitely in that league. Different type of player and the clearest poacher of the five but he's certainly in that bracket. Unreal statistics

 

[Moby]

Brwned went offline as soon as I made the change, without offering his opinion on countering it.

 

[antohan]

Who's vote did you lose because of it?

Go back and read it, you said that Vidic is better than Bergomi, you then later added 'plus he is facing worse attackers' (something along those lines). This makes people think that you believe Vidic is better than Bergomi independent of this game, which contradicts your previous assertions and casts doubts over everything else you have said.

Fair enough, English isnt your first language, but I'm not entirely convinced of that excuse as you've demonstrated on numerous occasions that you have a great grasp of the language and can concoct great football posts using it...

Anyway, moving on...

I don't buy the bad English line but I did get the impression at the time that what he meant was Bergomi was more up against it than Vidic. Maybe it is because I always default to that logic when looking at player comparisons. I really don't get stuff like Brwned comparing Maier to Roma, it's irrelevant if there are no clear cut goalscoring opportunities for one (I'm not saying that's the case here), and then you have to consider what sort (e.g. Gregg is far from the finest keeper in the draft but probably the most familiar with dealing with a physical CF aerially - Charles).

By the way, I have something to say on Roma but it is probably best to keep it to myself for now as it would undermine him when it is only just a funny fact with no relevance to the game.

 

[Moby]

Err I do consider my English pretty bad. You can read any posts and they are full of mistakes. Anyway, I've cleared it up that I was talking mainly in the context of the game.

 

[antohan]

Err I do consider my English pretty bad. You can read any posts and they are full of mistakes. Anyway, I've cleared it up that I was talking mainly in the context of the game.

It's actually very good Aldo and arguing the opposite makes you look like you are playing the victim here. That said, I don't think the furore is particularly fair with the amount of dirt shoved around in this game and the previous one with EDogen.

Bergomi is better than Vidic, we all agree. Bergomi has a more difficult job with Cruyff, Zico and Muller all being top players trying to break down that defence. Vidic is not playing to his strengths but is primarily having to help out Zambrotta with Best, which is not as difficult if doen as a two man job. That's why I think Brehme will go up the pitch anyway, even if his crossing is redundant but that in turn may make it easier for you to break up Brwned.

I think that pretty much covers it.

 

[Balu]

You probably lost the mud slinging contest there. I see your devious counter to Brwned quoting storey by quoting Balu resulted in them both voting against you

I didn't vote against him because of anything written in this thread after the op. The whole discussion was quite annoying, so I stopped looking through the thread and just read the op again and made my decision. It's based on, I like Brwned's team better and think he would win comfortably, his midfield is very strong and well balanced, he has brilliant individuals and I can see the team working together very well and I really rate Villa as a striker in this setup. I thought that Eto'o was seriously underrated in your game against Fergus'son and the few posts I read about Villa in here were quite the same. I don't understand it, but if he doesn't look out of place at all playing with Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, how can he look out of place in any of these draft games? That's just weird. Nothing against Aldo and his team, he drafted well and in my opinion his English is very good, I'm sure mine is worse (Though I have yet to meet an English guy who speaks better German than I speak English, so I'm fine with it ).

I'm still a bit confused why a post I wrote about C. Ronaldo was quoted, though. And I don't think my opinion on one player should count as an argument at all (neither should storey's even if he's seen one of the old players live). Pretty sure I misjudge quite a few of today's players and so does everyone else on here. It's already questionable to take former teammates' or managers' quotes into account, but a single football fan on here? That's just wrong.

 

[Moby]

Agreed.

 

[Moby]

I didn't vote against him because of anything written in this thread after the op. The whole discussion was quite annoying, so I stopped looking through the thread and just read the op again and made my decision. It's based on, I like Brwned's team better and think he would win comfortably, his midfield is very strong and well balanced, he has brilliant individuals and I can see the team working together very well and I really rate Villa as a striker in this setup. I thought that Eto'o was seriously underrated in your game against Fergus'son and the few posts I read about Villa in here were quite the same. I don't understand it, but if he doesn't look out of place at all playing with Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, how can he look out of place in any of these draft games? That's just weird. Nothing against Aldo and his team, he drafted well and in my opinion his English is very good, I'm sure mine is worse.

I'm still a bit confused why a post I wrote about C. Ronaldo was quoted, though. And I don't think my opinion on one player should count as an argument at all (neither should storey's even if he's seen one of the old players live). Pretty sure I misjudged quite a few of today's players and so did everyone else on here. It's already questionable to take former teammates' or managers' quotes into account, but a single football fan on here? That's just wrong.

It was just a passage of taking the piss. Fergus just mentioned something and I followed it up. I wasn't really looking for votes. But thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. Always good to have knowledgeable folk participate.

 

[Theon]

The whole discussion was quite annoying, so I stopped looking through the thread and just read the op again and made my decision.

It was a bit

 

[Ish]

Such a tough match up.

 

[Moby]

Brwned's racking up the votes from caftards, seems like the draft regulars is my only slim hope, if any.

 

[Fergus' son]

I didn't vote against him because of anything written in this thread after the op. The whole discussion was quite annoying, so I stopped looking through the thread and just read the op again and made my decision. It's based on, I like Brwned's team better and think he would win comfortably, his midfield is very strong and well balanced, he has brilliant individuals and I can see the team working together very well and I really rate Villa as a striker in this setup. I thought that Eto'o was seriously underrated in your game against Fergus'son and the few posts I read about Villa in here were quite the same. I don't understand it, but if he doesn't look out of place at all playing with Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, how can he look out of place in any of these draft games? That's just weird. Nothing against Aldo and his team, he drafted well and in my opinion his English is very good, I'm sure mine is worse (Though I have yet to meet an English guy who speaks better German than I speak English, so I'm fine with it ).

I'm still a bit confused why a post I wrote about C. Ronaldo was quoted, though. And I don't think my opinion on one player should count as an argument at all (neither should storey's even if he's seen one of the old players live). Pretty sure I misjudge quite a few of today's players and so does everyone else on here. It's already questionable to take former teammates' or managers' quotes into account, but a single football fan on here? That's just wrong.

Not looking out of place is the bare minimum really, being the teams main goal threat is a considerable task. On the face of it, if Villa is going to be having joy (by being a good enough player) then what of Muller? He'll probably score 5!

 

[Moby]

I can only reiterate that Brwned's goal threat is merely a magical solo goal by Best. Charlton and Law were more responsible for scoring, and Charlton has a heavy fight to win while Villa is not being let into the game. Even if Best creates plenty of chances, they'll mostly be cut off before they reach Villa, considering Hansen's incredible anticipation. It is very very 1 dimensional.

On the other hand I have Cruyff isolating Bergomi and taking him out of the game leaving Rio 1v1 against Muller with Zico storming in and Gullit waiting at the far post. Just see the different routes possible once I get the ball. A Cruyff cross to Gullit who will win anything aerially against Camacho. A muller tap in. A Zico special. Or Cruyff himself getting him considering he holds the upper hand against Bergomi in a 1v1.

Brwned's best route is my 4th best route. And I have not even considered possibilities like Alonso lobbing it up to Gullit (again winning the aerial battle) and knocking it down for two absolutely hungry predators.

 

[antohan]

I tend to agree with you Aldo. The only problem I have is I would expect Brwned to hit the ground running from the off while you will go through the motions a bit trying to work things out with Zico and your newly recruited Cruyff. His route is a simple one to work on from minute 1, yours is more elaborate.

The problem is if he scores first he is then well set to just sit back and hit you on the break. You have a better, more elaborate team going forward with more options to go about scoring, but the simplicity of his approach would make up for it if he is first to score.

 

[Moby]

And given his forward will face a tough time, him scoring early is a bleak possibility. It will take a few attempts to find Villa without Hansen intercepting it. Best himself has at times taken a few minutes to get in his groove. In the European Cup final he didn't come to life from the 1st minute, and his goal came in extra time.

I don't see how him sitting back works as well. Clearly Brehme is attacking all game and neither of his CMs are the ones who will sit deep, both like going forward. So there will always be openings for me.

 

[Brwned]

Brwned's racking up the votes from caftards, seems like the draft regulars is my only slim hope, if any.

We have 9 votes each from non-drafters, it was 9-8 to you in that sense when you posted this.

Agree with Balu that this got quite tedious from both ends quite quickly - it all started off with me 5-1 down in no time and Villa getting pilloried from all ends so I'll be the one to take a step back from it all. I prefer the game threads just to talk about the players and how they'd work together to be honest. Particularly as the other route ends in the opposition being bitter at the end of things as was the case in the previous game. No point sucking the fun out of this just to "win".

On that front, does no-one else think Brehme's greatest asset wasn't really his crossing? For me it was his perceptive build-up play and intelligent passing which made him a key part of the attack and one worthy of Gullit's Holland side man-marking him for most of the game (until the red cards and then they went a goal down, and Brehme came into the game more and scored this beauty ). Him having no-one to cross to doesn't mean he's going to sit there aimlessly pumping balls in, he's got plenty of strings to his bow. It's not like he's Manfred Kaltz for christ's sake. Sad to see Brehme being talked about as some one dimensional nobody.

Still think Figo deserves more of a mention here, he was glorious. Haven't got the time to refresh my memory of a game between him and Thuram on the same flank but surely he wouldn't be kept quiet all game. Even if his dribbling wasn't getting him too far his passing is surely doing some damage.

Cracking teams on paper, to be fair. I think a Vidic - Hansen partnership would work against most attacks because they'd been have very complementary...however, against Brwned's attacking options would Vidic be suited as much as a proper ball playing centre back? And interestingly enough despite the modern game evolving...both have gone for out and out number 9s.

I can't ever see this no strikers thing becoming widespread Spoons, you'll always need a predator in there to finish off the chances and it seems obvious they should be stationed as close to the opposition goal as possible. What do you make of Villa up front, then? He's no Muller, obviously, but I think he's got the pedigree to bag some goals alongside Figo and Best with Charlton in close attendance.

 

[Moby]

If you are giving credit to Figo against Thuram, specially when playing him on the left, you can just imagine the credit Cruyff will get against Bergomi, Muller against Rio, and so on. It was quite rich of you to mention that Cruyff will be 50% as a LW, he will still be more than what Figo will provide on that side. There's no question he's running into a dead end here.

 

[Moby]

Oh and btw I still to hear what you are doing about Cruyff isolating Bergomi and Muller being 1v1 against Rio.

 

[Spoony]

We have 9 votes each from non-drafters, it was 9-8 to you in that sense when you posted this.

Agree with Balu that this got quite tedious from both ends quite quickly - it all started off with me 5-1 down in no time and Villa getting pilloried from all ends so I'll be the one to take a step back from it all. I prefer the game threads just to talk about the players and how they'd work together to be honest. Particularly as the other route ends in the opposition being bitter at the end of things as was the case in the previous game. No point sucking the fun out of this just to "win".

On that front, does no-one else think Brehme's greatest asset wasn't really his crossing? For me it was his perceptive build-up play and intelligent passing which made him a key part of the attack and one worthy of Gullit's Holland side man-marking him for most of the game (until the red cards and then they went a goal down, and Brehme came into the game more and scored this beauty ). Him having no-one to cross to doesn't mean he's going to sit there aimlessly pumping balls in, he's got plenty of strings to his bow. It's not like he's Manfred Kaltz for christ's sake. Sad to see Brehme being talked about as some one dimensional nobody.

Still think Figo deserves more of a mention here, he was glorious. Haven't got the time to refresh my memory of a game between him and Thuram on the same flank but surely he wouldn't be kept quiet all game.


I can't ever see this no strikers thing becoming widespread Spoons, you'll always need a predator in there to finish off the chances and it seems obvious they should be stationed as close to the opposition goal as possible. What do you make of Villa up front, then? He's no Muller, obviously, but I think he's got the pedigree to bag some goals alongside Figo and Best with Charlton in close attendance.

Villa's a decent enough choice...although Muller trumps him. That said would Muller offer anything of note outside the box? And what other options did you have aside from Villa? I think Barca 's Villa is clouding people's judgment.

 

[Brwned]

Agree with Balu that this got quite tedious from both ends quite quickly - it all started off with me 5-1 down in no time and Villa getting pilloried from all ends so I'll be the one to take a step back from it all. I prefer the game threads just to talk about the players and how they'd work together to be honest. Particularly as the other route ends in the opposition being bitter at the end of things as was the case in the previous game. No point sucking the fun out of this just to "win".

...

I'm away out, I'll come back on for a bit later to catch up but this to-and-fro has run its course Aldo, it's just not fun - as you said yourself.

 

[Moby]

It hasn't really. You need to address a tactical change from an opposition.

 

[Brwned]

Villa's a decent enough choice...although Muller trumps him. That said would Muller offer anything of note outside the box? And what other options did you have aside from Villa? I think Barca 's Villa is clouding people's opinions on him and his career.

I reckon Muller had a crafty (if unspectacular) dribble in him and a decent eye for a clever 1-2 but other than that, nah. You do wonder how an out-and-out poacher would fare in the game today but he's such a clever player and clinical finisher that you have to think he'd work something out. Villa's bringing others into play, taking men on and taking a few strikes from range when the opportunity arises, he's not just sitting there waiting for crosses to be pumped in. He'll be combining with Figo and Best and Charlton and looking for that little bit of space to get a goal from nothing. The attack is hardly just standing still in the positions they've lined up in, each of the front three have gotten the most joy out of drifting across the front line and there's room to do that here no doubt.

 

[Spoony]

I reckon Muller had a crafty (if unspectacular) dribble in him and a decent eye for a clever 1-2 but other than that, nah. You do wonder how an out-and-out poacher would fare in the game today but he's such a clever player and clinical finisher that you have to think he'd work something out. Villa's bringing others into play, taking men on and taking a few strikes from range when the opportunity arises, he's not just sitting there waiting for crosses to be pumped in. He'll be combining with Figo and Best and Charlton and looking for that little bit of space to get a goal from nothing. The attack is hardly just standing still in the positions they've lined up in, each of the front three have gotten the most joy out of drifting across the front line and there's room to do that here no doubt.

Yeah Villa offers more, as for Muller...it's a difficult one, I'm not sure he had enough in his locker to offer more outside the box. It's one if the reasons why I suspect Fergie and Moyes have preferred Welbeck to Hernandez when they've got a brilliant striker in Van Persie, who clearly has a decent game outside the box too, as an automatic choice. Funnily enough I watched a bit of the Denis Law, and for someone who I thought was a poacher...it came as pleasant surprise to me that he had a brilliant all round game. He had the lot.

 

[Brwned]

Aye, can never understand why the oldies all call Denis Law a poacher! Perceptive passer, nifty dribbler and great composure on the ball in all areas. I guess it shows just how specialised football became later? Muller didn't have that to his game but I still think he was better than that.

 

[Moby]

Brwned mate, I am waiting for an answer about your counter to my change. Your team is waiting for instructions and the manager is looking away!

 

[antohan]

On that front, does no-one else think Brehme's greatest asset wasn't really his crossing? For me it was his perceptive build-up play and intelligent passing which made him a key part of the attack and one worthy of Gullit's Holland side man-marking him for most of the game (until the red cards and then they went a goal down, and Brehme came into the game more and scored this beauty ). Him having no-one to cross to doesn't mean he's going to sit there aimlessly pumping balls in, he's got plenty of strings to his bow. It's not like he's Manfred Kaltz for christ's sake. Sad to see Brehme being talked about as some one dimensional nobody.

My view is it is all Aldo make-believe to have Cruyff further up the pitch and central with Best alone vs. two defenders. It's basically a scenario whereby you play with 10

I do think his crosses would have been interesting but have no target, but he would still get up there and try help Best beat those two. What the feck would he be doing otherwise?

 

[Spoony]

Aye, can never understand why the oldies all call Denis Law a poacher! Perceptive passer, nifty dribbler and great composure on the ball in all areas. I guess it shows just how specialised football became later? Muller didn't have that to his game but I still think he was better than that.

Or that Denis Law is criminally underrated. But yeah cracking dribbler, also had good pace and was strong for someone so slight.

 

[Moby]

Exactly, think it was obvious when I said that his main attacking weapon would be under utilized, obviously I didn't mean he'd just stand there. Christ having to spell out everything.

 

[Spoony]

Can one of you buggers give me the list of strikers you chose from?

 

[Moby]

feck this, if Brwned's just gonna ignore the game going on, I'm out. Sad to see someone take a draft game personally. Poor form.

 

[antohan]

Exactly, think it was obvious when I said that his main attacking weapon would be under utilized, obviously I didn't mean he'd just stand there. Christ having to spell out everything.

You did say something along the lines of "there's no point him going for the 2v1 on Zambrotta". Of course there's a point.

He won't be doing it all game long though I agree. You just don't leave Cruyff unattended like that and requiring Bergomi to come out to cover. It's probably a better bet to keep things tight there than what help he may give Best who doesn't really need a 2 v 1 to beat a fullback.

 

[Theon]

Can one of you buggers give me the list of strikers you chose from?

You can choose anyone, two from each decade 30's-80's

 

[Moby]

You did say something along the lines of "there's no point him going for the 2v1 on Zambrotta". Of course there's a point.

He won't be doing it all game long though I agree. You just don't leave Cruyff unattended like that and requiring Bergomi to come out to cover. It's probably a better bet to keep things tight there than what help he may give Best who doesn't really need a 2 v 1 to beat a fullback.

That was exactly what I meant, and everyone here saw it except the ones who chose not to.