Don't think it's just about him being up top, it's his very presence. Clearly the weak link in your side so people will mention it. Don't think anyone's gone too overboard in what they have said, especially when you consider the oppositions striker, he just doesn't cut it.
Decades Draft Tournament : AldoRaine18 vs Brwned
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Villa against Baresi-Nesta - no chance. Villa against Vidic-Hansen - it's a different ball-game. There's no way he's more of a weak link than Alonso up against Charlton, Edwards and Falcao never mind Zambrotta up against Best. No way.
From a man who saw Moore:
I'll not bring up his opinions on Vidic.
From a man who saw Moore:
I'll not bring up his opinions on Vidic.
Indeed, those two are as big if not even bigger mis-matches.
Brwned, I think I've mentioned this before with you but I really don't go too deep in the award rating. They depend on several things. A rank 10 in a tough year could easily be better than a rank 3 in an easy year.
But since you like them so much, I think I should point out that Muller, Gullit, and Cruyff hold 5 Ballon D'ors in total not mentioning the times they finished second or third.
But since you like them so much, I think I should point out that Muller, Gullit, and Cruyff hold 5 Ballon D'ors in total not mentioning the times they finished second or third.
What mismatch are you talking about Alonso though? You do understand that Gullit is adding up as a 4th CM when needed.
Alonso vs any of the oppositions midfield is a mismatch, it to mention how much he will struggle to help out Zambrotta up against Best. Is there a particular reason why you placed Alonso and Rijkaard on those sides?
I have a free CB to help out Zambrotta, which doesn't mean Alonso always has to help out. Which makes it 4 v 3 in midfield. Nevermind the fact that Gullit has tons more energy than most players you can find.
As I started, Best beating Zambrotta all day will be rendered ineffective when the ball is cleared before it reaches a marked Villa, while Rijkaard is matching Charlton on the ground and in the air. Chalrton's aerial ability is one of his big weapons and I have great height in my team.
On the other hand Cruyff has a free ride without any sort of clear indication on what is stopping him while Brehme is up the pitch and he is creating chances for Muller with an incoming Zico.
Cannot see Brwned outscoring me.
On the other hand Cruyff has a free ride without any sort of clear indication on what is stopping him while Brehme is up the pitch and he is creating chances for Muller with an incoming Zico.
Cannot see Brwned outscoring me.
You've got Ferdinand who's roughly the same level as Hansen, at worst in the rung below. Then you've got Bergomi who's two, three, four tiers above Vidic? Roma who nobody seems to know anything about up against Maier - World Cup and European Cup winner and a hugely calming presence. Also happens to know Der Bomber reasonably well too...
At fullback you have Brehme perhaps a level below Thuram, Camacho a level above Zambrotta (if we're being kind), and then Gullit-Cruyff being on roughly the same level as Best-Figo but the biggest mismatch of the game goes in my favour.
In midfield you have Edwards-Falcao. Aldo's only hope here is if he tries to con people into thinking Edwards wasn't great. I'm sorry, but there's no way that one of just three defensive midfielders/out and out centre mids to make it into the Ballon d'Or top three is anything but top tier. No way. Rijkaard is of course top tier too, if you want to argue he's better that's fine by me/ I won't need to argue too hard for Falcao. I know Aldo thinks very highly of him too. One of just a handful of centre mids to be named Brazilian footballer of the year, a key part of the Brazil '82 side, the best player in a Roma side that reached the final of the European Cup for the one and only time in their history and that one the league a year before for the first time in over 40 years. He's miles above Alonso. Lightyears ahead.
As Aldo said himself, Zico and Charlton are at the same level. In this case Zico's trying to compete with Cruyff for the limelight while Charlton is happily teaming up with Best again as he steals the limelight and Charlton selflessly drags Rijkaard out of the midfield battle leaving Alonso all alone against Falcao and Edwards.
Muller is perhaps the best striker in history, for me, but is the difference in class between him and Villa any bigger than the difference in class between Bergomi and Vidic? Not for me. Vidic and Alonso are two players who probably shouldn't even be in this draft. Toure's the same, but he's on my bench. Villa has one of the best goalscoring records from recent memory in international football - he's not in the same class as Muller, but he's good enough at this level. No doubt about that.
At fullback you have Brehme perhaps a level below Thuram, Camacho a level above Zambrotta (if we're being kind), and then Gullit-Cruyff being on roughly the same level as Best-Figo but the biggest mismatch of the game goes in my favour.
In midfield you have Edwards-Falcao. Aldo's only hope here is if he tries to con people into thinking Edwards wasn't great. I'm sorry, but there's no way that one of just three defensive midfielders/out and out centre mids to make it into the Ballon d'Or top three is anything but top tier. No way. Rijkaard is of course top tier too, if you want to argue he's better that's fine by me/ I won't need to argue too hard for Falcao. I know Aldo thinks very highly of him too. One of just a handful of centre mids to be named Brazilian footballer of the year, a key part of the Brazil '82 side, the best player in a Roma side that reached the final of the European Cup for the one and only time in their history and that one the league a year before for the first time in over 40 years. He's miles above Alonso. Lightyears ahead.
As Aldo said himself, Zico and Charlton are at the same level. In this case Zico's trying to compete with Cruyff for the limelight while Charlton is happily teaming up with Best again as he steals the limelight and Charlton selflessly drags Rijkaard out of the midfield battle leaving Alonso all alone against Falcao and Edwards.
Muller is perhaps the best striker in history, for me, but is the difference in class between him and Villa any bigger than the difference in class between Bergomi and Vidic? Not for me. Vidic and Alonso are two players who probably shouldn't even be in this draft. Toure's the same, but he's on my bench. Villa has one of the best goalscoring records from recent memory in international football - he's not in the same class as Muller, but he's good enough at this level. No doubt about that.
Vidic doesn't belong here but Rio does? How does that work?
Look, I am not getting overrun in midfield. You have stated Edwards and Falcao are covering Zico and Cruyff, so they are already not being at their best. Rijkaard only has Charlton to deal with for which he's good enough. You don't have the same resistance against Cruyff and Zico.
I keep asking but you don't answer.
When I have the ball, who is stopping Cruyff?
I keep asking but you don't answer.
When I have the ball, who is stopping Cruyff?
Vidic has been great for Manchester United alongside Rio but that's about it. He was very poor in his only World Cup showing. Rio was great for Leeds in the CL, was in the 2002 World Cup team of the tournament and was great for United. He's a lot more proven on every level.
Because Rio is better than Vidic.
I think the issue Aldo has is that he is incredibly well protected on the left (Thuram with the hardworking Gullit backing him up) but Best is running riot on the other side. Zambrotta will be a little lost on that side though Cruyff will help out some.
It's a strange question to ask. Tell me where Cruyff's popping up and I'll tell you who's dealing with him. Presumably it'll be one of the defenders. If he's stuck down the left wing it'll be Brehme and Bergomi, as goes without saying.
We are only considering peaks, remember. Vidic has really nothing that puts him below Rio.
Vidic also has won titles alongside an invisible Evra with ever changing partners.
There is nothing that separates the two barring their playing styles. I am 100% you would have picked him, which you admitted yourself, and now you are saying he doesn't belong here.
I would only have picked him to partner with Rio, genuinely. Or to keep him for one round and then quickly get rid. Vidic in 2010 was Vidic at his peak, and let's face it he was terrible in the World Cup.
Don't think Rio can be questioned frankly. He's certainly the best the Premiership has seen and has a good shout to be considered the greatest England's had. He's also a rock in these drafts, winning the last three from memory (CL, Prem and all-time). Obviously the United bias helps, but he was pretty much flawless at his peak.
And your defenders are not up to it, when they also have Muller to take care of. That's getting me as much joy as best against Zambrotta. It is clear, when I am on the ball, the buildup isn't getting stopped neither is the scoring. I at least have continuous attention for Charlton and Figo.
He will pop up in spaces and create chances alongside Zico and Gullit. One of Falcao and Edwards has to go forward if you wanna get the best out of them and with the pace of my front 4 there won't be enough time for them to get back.
Rio in a 1v1 against Muller with Cruyff pulling the strings? How is that not going to work with no one staying back to close Cruyff down?
And so is Cruyff, who is facing no resistance as the rest are tied up with other players.
There is no way Rio and Bergomi can match up to Zico and Muller.
And Muller was a goal machine who always scores, that is the thing.
Brwned is bringing up player to player comparisons which is really irrelevant. It is the match ups, else I can argue Zambrotta is not much less than Camacho.
I have a clear cut plan to stop most of his attack. Hansen on Villa. Thuram on Figo. Rijkaard on Charlton. I will win these match ups more often than not.
He has not given any attention to Cruyff which is a suicide. Neither of Rio or Bergomi is good enough to do a job on Muller either.
How will I be stopped from scoring?
As I said, it is the peak that counts. Vidic has done enough at United and only that counts. Else you'd have people bringing up Messi's goalscoring record in WC. You've gone away from the context.
If you are starting all that, I'd argue that your team falls really behind in longevity than mine. Gullit, Zico, Muller, Cruyff, Rijkaard, Thuram, Hansen all were world class till the very end of their careers.
Yeah Muller and/or Zico will score. No doubt about that. Brwned's defence and it's screen aren't good enough to stop that. Falcao while a brilliant distributor isn't good enough to screen someone like Zico, i'd think and from what I've read of Edwards, he was pretty gung-ho. While Rio-Bergomi is a good defense, it's not watertight enough to stop two of the greatest goalscorers of all time.
It's a tough one.
Though Falcao was the better player, I thought at the time that Robson would win him more votes, and that's the impression I'm getting so far.
Nice move to quote peterstorey though, bringing his attention to the thread already knowing he likes a lot of your players. I'm sure this is the first game he has voted on!
Nice move to quote peterstorey though, bringing his attention to the thread already knowing he likes a lot of your players. I'm sure this is the first game he has voted on!
It is really bizarre that even when he has only when clear route to goal, he is going to score more specially with a sub standard forward.
I have mentioned a couple of clear routes already. There are more. Alonso or Hansen can just lob it to Gullit (6ft3) against Camacho(5ft8) and knock it down for Muller and Zico to latch on.
There's just too many ways for me to score and the fact they all end up with the greatest goal scorer of all time at the end of it means it won't be going waste.
I have mentioned a couple of clear routes already. There are more. Alonso or Hansen can just lob it to Gullit (6ft3) against Camacho(5ft8) and knock it down for Muller and Zico to latch on.
There's just too many ways for me to score and the fact they all end up with the greatest goal scorer of all time at the end of it means it won't be going waste.
Evil move!
Woah, hold on here. You've already acknowledged Edwards is on Cruyff, Falcao on Zico, and then as they move from midfield to attack they get passed on to Bergomi, Brehme and Rio. Since when did we need to have man-msrking setups going on to have a strong defensive setup? That's silly, especially against a fluid attack. It rarely happens nowaays and it's not a weak point for me at all. I have a top class DM - if we use the term loosely for Keane and co. - in Edwards, a very hardworking Falcao and a very strong back five. They will pass men on to each other as and when appropriate in the knowledge that their team-mates can execute the task properly. If I wanted to get some man-marking going on I could have Bergomi on Muller and Camacho on Cruyff but that's not the tactic I chose. It's nothong to do with letting Cruyff and co. do what they want.
What does longevity have to do with it? Almost all of these players have excelled at every level in multiple teams and/or roles. Vidic hasn't so there's question marks. That's it.
What does longevity have to do with it? Almost all of these players have excelled at every level in multiple teams and/or roles. Vidic hasn't so there's question marks. That's it.
There's no question mark. We are going by the peak, Vidic's peak was at United, just like Messi's at Barca. The fact that they failed in other tournaments is not a concern in this draft.
So if performing in every tournament they played in is important, so is performing over a longer period of time and you have Best.
What's going on here? You asked for a neutral's opinion on Rio, I gave one and Gio gave the other. I wasn't going around quoting people for votes.
Messi's World Cup record does get held against him though, hence him not being unanimously considered the best in the draft. How they performed alongside multiple partners and/or in multiple roles has always been part of it. How long they've done it for has always been disregarded providing they held they peak for 3+ years.
I don't see how Vidic's World Cup when he was at his peak is some kind of devious tactic. It exposed a number of his flaws.
I didn't do it just to go searching for votes though, you asked me to find a neutral opinion.So am I.
Edit : I mean presenting opinions.
5-1 to 6-6. Time for some of this.
Time for some of this.
That is just plain mudslinging.
Let's just say he's below Rio but saying he doesn't belong here is ridiculous. This is the thing, just because we have seen him week in week out we'd rate his flaws higher than the facts that he has won CL, set defensive records, won leagues with Evra, Rafael and what not with no midfield protecting him.
He's without a doubt a better CB than Bergomi.
If you can find a neutral to agree with that I'll happily concede that Vidic is in fact worthy of his place in this game. As it is I see him as a weak link.
And he's facing Villa while Bergomi is trying to stop Zico/Muller, it is clear that Vidic will have a better game than Bergomi.
Again and again you are comparing players and not match ups, which doesn't make sense.
Again and again you are comparing players and not match ups, which doesn't make sense.
As I said, Bergomi vs Muller is the bigger problem.
Am I? I thought I did it once, and then you brought up Vidic and Bergomi?
If you are going to call everyone a weak link just to knit pick, then Camacho has no chance against a Ballon D'or winner who is half a feet taller than him.
These are all weaknesses then.
These are all weaknesses then.