Yeah that was one of the attacking performances. They do have a go at the lesser sides. They even have a go at the midtable sides like Arsenal, Everton etc. Maybe you caught their games against us and City only where they couldn’t be more defensive if they tried.
David Moyes Unemployed | European Champion
- Thread starter Damien
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I would agree that's how they play the top teams. It would be foolish not to, imo.
But that's not how they've played against the lower half teams this year. In their last two games, for example, they scored 6 goals in the first half, and had 25 shots on goal. They play direct football, sure, but I don't believe their main goal is to lock up a game and just wait for a counter or a set piece.
I also don't see why a team like them would somehow be an embarassment to the league. I know most West Ham fans prefer this somewhat old school style to the prettier but ineffective Pellegrini period.
That statement has little meaning on its own. City also set out to stop the opponent from playing their game (by claiming 70% of possession). There's many ways to stop a team form playing their game.
Also, they score far too many goals for them to be called a negative team. Mostly against weaker sides, as you say, but that's only logical with a team like theirs. They have some decent players, but shouldn't be outscoring Chelsea, Arsenal, Everton, etc who have far better attacking options.
Rice out for a month, could be a heavy blow to West Ham's top 4 challenge, although Moyes has managed to deal with a few injury crisis this season.
I swear, if you don't play possession orientated football these days, you are quickly judged to be a "counter attacking" team. Sir Alex never played for possession and he most certainly wasn't a counter attacking manager, sometimes it can seem this way if your style is based of attacking when possible or forcing the issue when you get the ball, taking risks even if they don't work out and forcing your opponent to reshuffle when your first idea is to try and create fast.
Direct may be the most accurate term to describe Moyes football. They don't dilly dally on the ball, looking to keep it for long periods, when they get the ball, their first idea is to attack, not to different than ourselves. Not to sit every player behind the ball and then try and hit a long ball over everyone for a counter, it more precise than that, in my opinion.
Contrary to the masses, I am glad to see him doing well again, made some astute signings aswell.
Direct may be the most accurate term to describe Moyes football. They don't dilly dally on the ball, looking to keep it for long periods, when they get the ball, their first idea is to attack, not to different than ourselves. Not to sit every player behind the ball and then try and hit a long ball over everyone for a counter, it more precise than that, in my opinion.
Contrary to the masses, I am glad to see him doing well again, made some astute signings aswell.
I couldn't believe we are top of the top 6 table after so many dire big games this season, then I realised your maths are wrong...on more than one count...
I do see your general point though!
No more than just those games, I'm not saying he always sets up ultra defensively. Just that he's a pragmatic defence first manager, there's nothing wrong with that it works for mid-table teams.
They'll of course be more attacking against certain opposition, but they're still primarily a counter attacking side.
They are ultra defensive against top teams. But whenever I've seen them this season it's still been how Moyes usually sets up and how he's always set up. Deep back 4, 2 sitting midfielders, try to be hard to break down and hit teams on the counter. Now there's nothing wrong with that style of play and yes they'll be more expansive against certain opposition (I don't watch all their games). But you'd have a hard time convincing me that West Ham don't for the most part play as I've just described them.
To be fair I never made that claim.
Agree. Point was just that they are not a Burnley with good players, for example.
Doh. That explains why it took me a couple of goes to pass maths! I've edited it and hopefully it makes more sense. I gave us and Leicester more points so it actually makes a stronger case for West Ham.
You'd have a hard time convincing me that Soucek is a sitting midfielder when he has been such an attacking threat and put in so many goals. He is a typical box-to-box who constantly attacks opposition's box and he doesn't just sit in front of the back 4.
I would mostly agree he is a box to box midfielder, yes he does attack, against some teams more than others. I never said they play with 2 dedicated defensive midfielders who sit in front of the defence the entire game. I said from what I've seen of West Ham this season (and Moyes teams in general) Soucek and Noble will often sit deep as their starting position. They'll try to keep it tight and then hit teams on the counter, this is when Soucek attacks and probably gets most of his goals (as well as from set pieces).
I could be wrong as I don't watch all their matches, but a quick check on which positions he's played this season on Transfermarkt says this.
33 games, 28 Defensive Midfield, 3 in Central Midfield and 1 as an attacking Midfielder.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/tomas-soucek/leistungsdaten/spieler/283628
Now I really doubt how many West Ham games you've seen this season. I've watched ~90% of their games and I'm confident to say none of this is true. Soucek's partner has been Rice throughout the season until his recent injury, and Noble is only occassionally subbed in at final minutes to play the AM role (to hold out the lead).
The position defined by transfermarkt is arbitrary, especially when it comes to midfielders. You can see them sometimes define Fred/McTominay as DM and sometimes as CM, despite they are essentially playing in the same system. No offence but it would be a bit naive if you simply translate their definition of DM into a sitting midfielder.
I'm aware, I said Noble as he came to mind as i was typing my last post. I watched the highlights of the Wolves game this morning and the last West Ham game i watched vs United he started both. I could have said Rice who is an actual DM and it wouldn't have changed my point i don't think.
Two points, first you've watched 90% of West Hams games this season? Genuinely interested are you a West Ham fan?
Secondly so you are saying West Ham aren't a counter attacking side?
Well ok they have been when I've watched them.
I did say i could be wrong to be fair and I think everyone knows Transfermarkt aren't 100% accurate. All I'm saying is whenever I've watched them their midfielders sit deep for the most part, Transfermarkt might interpret that as them playing as a DM. And again when I say a sitting midfielder I don't necessarily mean a dedicated DM. And of course my opinion of Moyes formation might be coloured by watching his teams over the last 19-20 years.
I would say I'm a close follower of West Ham. I just love watching football in my free time and West Ham have been one of the teams I prefer to watch since 2015. But of course if United play against West Ham I wll definitely want us to win. So call me whatever you like, I just happen to watch most of their games.
I really don't understand the definition of "a counter attacking side". If you think football is binary and all tactics other than keeping possession are counter attacking, well then West Ham surely are (so as many teams in the league). My stance is close to @TrustInOle and you could refer to #885 on this point.
According to the Premier League, we score the same number of goals from counter attack as West Ham. Do you consider us as "a counter attacking side"? Leeds score more goals from counter attack, but I don't see people call their tactics "outdated" or "dinosaur".
Our definitions towards "a sitting midfielder" are also different. "A sitting midfielder", as the name suggests, is a midfielder literally "sitting" in front of the backline for the whole game and he seldom or never breaks forward to attack. Classic examples are Carrick and Busquets. It's hard to discuss if we don't have a concensus on this term.
If you follow this thread long enough you would know I've also criticized Moyes on multiple occassions. He's nowhere near a perfect manager and I agree sometimes he's too conservative. But some fans' perspective towards him is clearly skewed based on the limited matches they watch (usually big matches) and his failure at United. This is not fair.
Another thing that's not fair is that some classify Moyes, Hodgson, Hughes etc. as the same type of managers and judge them as a group. You'll know they deploy very different tactics if you have actually watched their games. On the other day Palace were playing short-passing football with a lot of one-twos and people still assumed they played long ball.
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I wasn't judging mate as i said i was genuinely interested. I didn't know if you were a United fan or a West Ham fan.
Primarily yes ideally I think thats how Solskjaer would like to play most sides. Though it doesn't always work out as teams know how good we are on the counter and tend to sit deep against more and more these days.
I would say Bielsa's teams aren't as defensive minded as Moyes teams though. Moyes has been known throughout his career as a pragmatic manager.
Well we see it differently, i meant sitting as in midfielders who sit when a team (usually a counter attacking team) are in their defensive shape. As opposed to a true DM who protects the defence.
Imagine that, West Ham in the Champions League and on that budget, if it happens big respect to David Moyes.
They’ve looked good for a while but this is the result that will make them believe they’re worthy of the top four.
West Ham keep accumulating these leads then almost blowing them. Probably something for El Moyes to try to work on.
The problem is that United have been judged against the artificial construct of the Big Six.
Fair play to him.
Good for him, he's found somewhere he fits.
He always fits into the clubs just below the top. His disaster at United probably damaged him a lot more than what most people think. If he gets into Europe ( I think he definitely will at least into the EL) it's a big plus for him and WestHam. He will probably do an Everton with WestHam and keep them around the top half and getting into EL regularly and maybe even the CL occasionally.
I was surprised he got the United job because of his lack of experience in Europe. He made mistakes, like others I think the job was too big for him, but I’m glad he’s doing well now and hope West Ham qualify for the CL.
Done really well with West Ham. Seems like he is at his level again like he was when at Everton. Some pretty nice football to watch at times. They need to keep Lingard and get a bit of strength in depth and could be within European contention pretty consistently.
Would be a massive achievement for him and the club. Still feel they might just miss out though, but even a Europa League spot is a great season for them.
Yeah I think Chelsea will get it I think. They should have got at least a point vs Chelsea last week.
What a disappointment of a man.
West Ham are having a wonderful season. European football of any description next season is a bonus for them.
When it really matters, he always fails. They should have really gone for it today, but typical Moyes pragmatism and one dimensional approach has let them down.
Still a great season, but you will always fall short of the big prizes with Moyes.
Still a great season, but you will always fall short of the big prizes with Moyes.
CL or not (which seems unlikely), he should be the frontrunner for Manager of the year. WHU had no right to be in top half let alone top 5.
Any result here on is just a bonus and if they secure EL football, I think it'd be a massive massive step for them
Any result here on is just a bonus and if they secure EL football, I think it'd be a massive massive step for them
my utter hatred for this man means I’d far rather it goes to be Pep. I still don’t want City to win the CL, but if they do - then clearly Pep is a manger of the year.
West Ham remind me of Sheffield United last season and they could easily be fighting relegation next season.
Exactly, a reason why he's not a top manager. Very good manager, perfect for likes of Everton, West Ham, Newcastle, but not for the very top. I'm still glad for him doing well again despite he failed at United, it was never his fault club hired him, almost no manager would say no to United.
It was obvious after the Arsenal game they were going to lose their balls, Moyes will do a great job when what's asked of him is to merely get by but once there's serious expectation forget it, they could have SHU to come twice and i still wouldn't have banked on them making it.
Not sure about that. ShU were clearly overachieving their xG, xGA numbers. In terms of xGD, they were 10th however. Irrespective goalscoring was their issue last season and they had an incredible defensive record. WHU have the 7th best xGD and are a lot more balanced in attack and defence. I don't expect them to be up there challenging for top 4 next season or even top 7, but I believe, they'd be somewhere where an average team is. Somewhere what Arsenal are doing now - neither in danger of relegation, but not posing a threat to European places
What, people were actually expecting them to pull it off at the end and qualifies to CL ?
The fact that they were in any sort of competition on the top 4 spots is a huge achievement.
The fact that they were in any sort of competition on the top 4 spots is a huge achievement.
I think it's more the fact there were some that was genuinely thinking they could have done it.
In reality is been clear for a while that it is/was highly unlikely.
He’s had a good season even if they’ve blown their best chance to ever qualify for the champions league. Manager of the season perhaps?
I do think they went for it today against Everton, they bullied the game (or Everton let them bully them and were happy off the ball) but they only had one plan. And when it wasn’t working they continued with it anyway.
Reminded me of Moyes at United, just beating your head against the wall, same thing over and over even when it’s clearly not working.