I thought he'd get his trophy that year they had Wigan at home in the semi, instead he shat himaelf, played Phil Neville in midfield with Fellaini and got walloped 3-0
David Moyes Unemployed | European Champion
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
I appreciate how good a season they're having.
However, if at the start of the season I told you that Man City would run away with the league while going on an insane winning streak and that West Ham would be in the Champions League finishing above Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs, which would you find more believable?
It was more a play on his comments when he was manager here.
City do intricate passes to drive into the box and play cut backs. Moyes expects long balls into the box or crosses played from runs down the wing. That's 20 years out of date.
Exactly how I see it
Fair enough. I don’t think his football is that bad really, unless I’m remembering wrong I was often impressed with his everton team too playing some good stuff.
worsed thing that happened to Moyes was managing us and putting in 80 crosses in a game, I think that skews people’s outlook on him.
I’m not Moyes biggest fan by any stretch, hated him here but I do think he gets unwarranted abuse at times. You’re calling him a dinosaur who shouldn’t be in The game anymore and I think he should be getting manger of the year
. football ey?They haven't blocked anyone becasue there has been noone to block. The two most promising British managers of the last 10 years have been Howe and Rodgers, we all know how good Rodgers is doing. Howe got Bournemouth relegated after some good work, but really didn't do much better than Curbishley at Charlton. Moyes or Hodgson would have kept them up. Potter is at Brighton and is doing well, but he will never get them up to the top half consistently like Moyes did at Everton.
Most of the most promising end up on the championship and league one merry go round of managers and if they are lucky may get a team promoted to the Premier league but are usually sacked not long after once threatened by relegation or relegated. Then it's back to the merry go round.
Given the crazy schedule this season especially for teams involved in Europe and just how short a break teams got last summer. Honestly nothing would have surprised me going into this season.
Here's where there's a major disconnect in our opinions. You're basically normalising excellence simply because it's something you've come to expect. Let me make a player analogy.
Imagine a scenario where Jesse Lingard is having a fire season by his standards, gets 18 goals and leads West Ham to a CL spot. Unbelievable right? Indeed. On the other hand Leo Messi also has a fire season by his own standards which means getting ~60 goals on all comps ( that would be his 3rd highest ever with a record of 73 in a season) and delivering a treble for Barca. Also amazing, but still quite believable based on the standard Messi has got us used to.
Do you mean to tell me that Lingard should win the Ballon D'Or award ahead of Messi because it was less likely to predict his mercurial performances even if they are levels below Messi's? Is it because of the handicap of working with a worse personal skill set or team than Messi? We can surely acknowledge Lingard's amazing season without normalising and diminishing Messi's excellence.
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Yes and that was a laughable decision. Up there with Scott Parker winning FWA Player of the Season for heroically getting West Ham relegated in last place. Not trying to take away anything from Moyes' and West Ham's performance this season, but it's entirely possible to give credit without making a mockery of the entire thing.
It's also a bit peculiar and a bit of a sham how Pardew and Pulis won it in front of Mancini (first title for City in decades) and Pellegrini (scoring over 100 goals in the league).
Did MON deserve one over SAF for finishing 4th with Villa or Big Sam for finishing 7th with Bolton? Of course bloody not!
Don't know about that. It's certainly a style of play that's been around for a long time, but if it's so out of date how is he doing well with it? All the modern managers with their modern tactics should be battering West Ham week in week out and they should be well down the table if that were true. It wouldn't work yet here we are with West Ham punching above their weight with an effective style of play.
That's kind of what is happening though? Since he took over they haven't beaten us, City, Liverpool or Arsenal once. They have one win against Chelsea, by the skin of their teeth in the last minute. Of the 8 teams they have a better than 50% win ratio against, 3 got relegated last season, 1 is about to be this season, and 2 are newly promoted. He's got them doing the simple, basic things properly, but they are hardly setting the world alight with their play.
I consider this situation as the universe taking the piss out of United fans. Moyes helping West Ham to top 4 (potentially being Manager of the season) with Lingard scoring for fun are two scenarios which collectively represent a statistical anomaly of epic proportions. I expect order to be restored next season. Though if West Ham do manage to keep Liverpool out of the top 4, David Moyes will earn a minor bit of my respect.
So West Ham play attritional anti-football and Leeds play beautiful attacking football?
Weird then that West Ham have scored more goals (and conceded way less) this season.
I have always liked Moyes. He was unfairly turned into a laughing stock after United and his career was in free fall for years. Im really glad to see him having success again
He’s doing a great job but they’ll likely fall away to a more mid table position next season.
Don't really know what you mean with the kind of happening part and don't want to talk at cross-purposes.
I just think it's clear that their tactics are working or they wouldn't be where they are, and if they are working today in this very moment then they can't really be out of date. They don't have to have beaten those 4 specific teams for that to be the case in my opinion, they're doing enough against the others who make up the bulk of the league and that's fine.
Would agree that they're not setting the world alight with their play.
Nevermind next season, they could still fall away to mid table this season.
Mid table is positions 8-13. Everton is in 8th and they are only 5 points behind West Ham, with a game in hand and they still have to play each other. Liverpool in 7th are only 3 points behind.
It's entirely plausible (probable even) that Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham and Everton overtake West Ham in last fifth of the season.
EDIT: The early voting while the season is on going, is also fundamentally flawed. Everyone talks about West Ham now because they have peaked at a top 4 spot. Swayed by the media fanfare, a vote now could well yield a Moyes win. Imagine Moyes gets MOTY and then goes on to finish 8th. And Pep goes on to do a double, treble or quadruple and gets nothing. How obscene.
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I mean West Ham are not beating big teams and are very consistent in taking points off poor teams.
Their tactics work for what he wants them to do; be hard to beat and nick goals here and there against the big teams. It works for Burnley too but it's even clearer there to see the negative impact that has on the league. English teams will never perform as expected in Europe if we are preparing for an aerial assault and physical battle against those teams every week.
It was the quarters not the semi
they'd been in variable form but had been playing decent football until then. It was still fresh in my mind when he got announced as United manager a few weeks later West Ham are not beating big teams because their players have undeniably less quality than City's, Liverpool's and ours. This never proves Moyes' tactic is outdated, if that's your purpose at the beginning. On the contrary, the fact they are very consistent in taking points off poor (and midtable) teams provides a strong evidence that their tactic is working really well indeed.
After 2 pages of discussion, I still can't see how you could logically relate Moyes' "dinosaur" tactic to English teams' struggle in Europe or the so-called lack of innovative ideas. You are either overestimating Moyes' influence, or oversimplifying the difference between English and other leagues.
These managers hang around in management not because they hit success once a decade, but because they actually deliver results at the moment. I watched Everton vs Palace yesterday and Hodgson was actually playing short-passing football with a lot of one-twos. Not sure if this is anti-football by your definition.
It's a simple difference. These managers set out primarily to stop the opposition playing football. That, to me, is not good for the league.
Do they deliver the results in the moment? Take three of the most talked about merry go round names:
Moyes - sacked at United, sacked at Sociedad, effectively sacked at Sunderland, not renewed at West Ham. 5 jobs, 1 success.
Hughes - sacked at City, left Fulham under a cloud, sacked at QPR, sacked at Stoke, sacked at Southampton. 6 jobs, 1 success.
Pardew - sacked at West Ham, effectively sacked at Charlton, sacked at Southampton, sacked at Palace, sacked at West Brom, effectively sacked in Holland. 8 jobs, 2 successes.
I wouldn't call that delivering.
Actually what @11101 is saying makes a lot of sense and fits in with Moyes record at United too and largely explains why he didn't work out at a big club and why he does well if given time at mid-table sides.
In his year at United we only managed 3 wins and 14 points vs teams that finished in the top half of the table that season. 2 scrappy home wins and one away win vs a Newcastle side already on the beach. 80% of the points he accumulated that year came against the bottom 10 sides.
So as 11101 says his style of play lends itself towards taking points off poor teams but coming up short against teams of a similar quality. This has been a theme of Moyes teams over his entire career. Even when he managed the Champions so you can't he isn't getting points vs big teams simply because he has inferior players. It is down to his style of play and tactics.
Do you actually take the time to watch them? West Ham aren't City, but they actually play decent football this season at times. The first half of their game on monday for example.
They have the 6th highest goal tally in the PL. This idea that they're just burnley with slightly better players is not doing them justice imo
That’s not weird at all. They’ve got a much better squad.
He’s doing extremely well with them this season but I bet they’re hovering around the relegation zone next season and he’s moved on.
What is West Hams style of play and main tactics in your opinion?
Moyes for me is a very pragmatic manager. Every time I've watched them this season they've been set up to keep it tight at the back and hit teams on the counter. Would you disagree with that assessment?
Did you watch them in their recent game against Wolves? Obviously they defended in the second half, but did they set up to counter in the first half?
No I can't say I did.
What does that have to do with it?
I say they'd be getting beat week in week out by modern managers with their modern tactics if the tactics were so out of date. You say that is kind of happening because they haven't beaten any of 4 specific teams in the past 16 months or so that you cherry-picked, all of whom are some of the richest clubs on the planet.
Do they play these 4 teams week in week out? No.
Do these 4 teams all have modern managers deploying modern tactics? Some might argue United don't.
Does the rest of the league, i.e. three-quarters of it have no modern managers who use modern tactics? Surely there's a number who do.
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A West Ham collapse is somewhat inevitable, isn’t it?
A sniff of top four and the anti-football mentality will kick in, sort of like it did during their pathetic display against us more recently.
A sniff of top four and the anti-football mentality will kick in, sort of like it did during their pathetic display against us more recently.
He even says it himself, he sets out to stop the opposition playing their game first and foremost. They might not have reached Burnley levels but he's not exactly Rinus Michels either.
I see almost no different between his Everton side and what he's got the current West Ham doing. Hard to beat, efficient, and shite against any half decent team.
Take the teams out of it somewhat and look at his record against managers.
His worst records?
Wenger, Ferguson, Benitez, Pellegrini, Mourinho, Guardiola, Klopp, Dalglish, Ranieri, Houlier, Poch.
His best:
Holloway, Mancini, Megson, Hodgson, Allardyce, Bruce, Jol, Pardew, Redknapp, Pulis, Hughes.
Sure, some of that is down to budgets and teams but there is still a definite trend there. Against better managers he's comfortably beaten, even the ones who don't have huge budgets.
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Yeah pretty much.
Moyes is a good manager though but he lacks something special when the going gets tough. Still has had a very good season and I do hope they get top 4.
Well I doubt they get top 4 and maybe not 6, but depending on how it goes in terms of how many points they get 7th wouldn't necessarily be a collapse in my book. They're only on 1.73 points per game anyway so far which I think is very low to be 4th at this point in a season. Even if they keep that up or similar they might well move down the table. The table is extremely tight and a lot of those just behind them have better players who I'd fancy to get more points than them in any random block of 8 matches. Might include Everton in that in other times too but their own form is on the downward just now as well.
Certainly expect West Ham to be lower than where they are now by season's end although I haven't looked a the fixtures/everyone's run-in.
Leicester & Chelsea at home in April, but if they can get through this month still in touching distance then they will fancy their chances in every one of their last 5 fixtures in May
Burney A
Everton H
Brighton A
West Brom A
Southampton H
They have a chance.
Jose should have replaced SAF. He wasn't on such a downward spiral at the time, had the ego to handle replacing possibly the greatest manager ever and had an older squad which he likes dealing with normally. A few years with him and then whoever followed wouldn't have such a legacy to come in after. Still shouldn't have been Moyes even then though!
Surely will have be LMA Manager of the year if he gets into top 4. Was favourite to be the 1st one sacked and WHU were likely candidates for relegation, but his record this season has been superb - Since their opening day loss to Newcastle, their only defeats have come against the original big 6 sides and if we're being honest, he deserved to win against Arsenal (3-1 defeat) and maybe they deserved atleast a point if not 3 vs us at London Stadium. Add to that, they went toe to toe vs Man City and were superb in that game as well
West Ham definitely haven't been flat track bullies.
This is the Top 6 table so far this season.
1. Man City P 9 W 4 D 2 L 3 Pts 14
2. Man United P 8 W 3 D 4 L 1 Pts 13
3. Leicester City P 6 W 3 D 1 L 2 Pts 10
4. West Ham P 8 W 3 D 1 L 4 Pts 10
5. Chelsea P 7 W 2 D 3 L 2 Pts 9
6. Spurs P 8 W 2 D 2 L 4 Pts 8
They've been involved in some entertaining games with a lot of goals. Even if we narrow it down to the top four teams they're only behind the Manchester clubs. They're level on points with Leicester who have a game in hand but tougher fixtures left so it's hard to call.
This is the Top 6 table so far this season.
1. Man City P 9 W 4 D 2 L 3 Pts 14
2. Man United P 8 W 3 D 4 L 1 Pts 13
3. Leicester City P 6 W 3 D 1 L 2 Pts 10
4. West Ham P 8 W 3 D 1 L 4 Pts 10
5. Chelsea P 7 W 2 D 3 L 2 Pts 9
6. Spurs P 8 W 2 D 2 L 4 Pts 8
They've been involved in some entertaining games with a lot of goals. Even if we narrow it down to the top four teams they're only behind the Manchester clubs. They're level on points with Leicester who have a game in hand but tougher fixtures left so it's hard to call.
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Deserves to be manager of the year. They've had a stunning season in the PL this year. Fair play to Moyes.
Cheers for that, and Inow see they have Newcastle as the one fixture not mentioned as well. That looks quite kind all-in-all. The Chelsea game looks huge, a proper 6-pointer. Win that or avoid defeat and they might actually have a good chance at it.