Moyes will be tested tactically vs Arsenal.
David Moyes - The Tactician
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
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He will. He has to pick the right personnel first and foremost. I expect he will revert to type and set United up in 2 banks of four, close together, and try and cut down the space in the middle of the park, force them out wide. Then win possession and counter-attack at pace. When United have the ball he will want to stretch Arsenal's full-backs and get balls into the box. I expect Valencia and Nani to start.
The main problem for me is dealing with the movement of Arsenal and the runners from midfield, particularly Ramsey. United need to be on their A-game for the full 90.
The main problem for me is dealing with the movement of Arsenal and the runners from midfield, particularly Ramsey. United need to be on their A-game for the full 90.
You sound confident in Moyes Comsmit.
Smalling is his best tactical advantage in this game wouldn't you say.
I'm just waiting to see if he plays him alongside/in front of Rooney or just in front of Carrick......
I think I must be the only one that doesn't really like the way this system works.
I'd much rather Evra doing less overlapping and the left sided player playing wider and having him as an inside source of delivery. Of course situations will arise where he can overlap and that is fine but I think it puts us at a huge disadvantage in the transition phase as the right sided opposition attacking player can stay slightly forward of Evra and then use the space he leaves to counter into it.
Obviously, it's not going to always happen like this. The central players will probably be deeper but a fast transition will result in an overload in the midfield area which is always dangerous on a counter. Drawing the players getting back to the ball and not back to their positions is a problem I've been noticing since even the year City won the title. The lack of mobility in the middle of the park to push forward and recover the ball leads to players from deep having to move to the ball and not back into position to stop opposition runners.
I'd much rather see Evra support more in this way, so he can deliver a ball from shallow if need be or to recycle and then overlap when we have players further forward who can support. The only times I've seen a lack of synergy from Evra and Kagawa is when Kagawa gets the ball from somebody else and moves inside, Evra makes a late run that 9/10 is aimless and he doesn't receive the ball. If we lose the ball in this incidence then the opposition have a free reign to counter in to the space. When they are both quite forward and it's recycled out through Evra who brings the ball up you get a much more stable platform to play a quick interchange.
Maybe I am reading it the wrong way. But it's probably the reason why I get scared sometimes when Evra bombs forward then doesn't get back quickly.
We need to use the flanks in a dynamic way. Push and pull. At the moment we seem to just be getting it as wide as possible then trying to move it back inside. There is no supporting options being presented to make the wing play dynamic. It's especially evident on the opposite side with Valencia. Though recently he really has been trying to be dynamic though.
I think in order to do this, we'd need someone who's more 2 footed than Evra, and definitely a LW who's comfortable staying out wide and pinging long crosses in, or has the requisite dribbling ability to go around his man on the outside to get to the byline closer to the peno box.
It seems a little defensively lightweight, and Moyes seemingly doesn't have any faith in Fabio, but it's interesting to wonder how a combination of Fabio and Januzaj on the left flank would work. Both are good enough to play wide or tucked in, and that gives us more variety in our wing play.
It seems a little defensively lightweight, and Moyes seemingly doesn't have any faith in Fabio, but it's interesting to wonder how a combination of Fabio and Januzaj on the left flank would work. Both are good enough to play wide or tucked in, and that gives us more variety in our wing play.
One thing I believe, is if we employ the pressing strategy we used vs Chelsea at home in the nil all draw, we will give Arsenal pure hell. I'm not one of those who believe we need to play them on the counter on our own patch.
And we usually don't. This destroy Arsenal on the break is something we do only away from home. On our own patch we usually play our normal game but with a bit more aggression.
I am hoping the aggression is what can put the game in our hands. As good as Arsenal are, they are still Arsenal, they don't want the fight, if we can rough them up and really get in their faces, I still feel they are vulnerable. Sure, I would prefer we take the ball and play them off the park from the kick off but sometimes you got to do, what you got to do and I think hitting Arsenal early will put us on the front foot big time.
I don't think we will give them hell Chief, because we don't press well as a team. Chelsea set up negatively at OT in typical Mourinho style, looking to nick possession and counter quickly, Arsenal won't set up like that. Pressing is only effective if it is done consistently as a unit, as good players will always exploit the space when players are pulled out of position. I think the side we will face on Sunday will be much wiser to the United game Ferguson employed on frequent occasions. They will look to dictate the tempo and probably will. Moyes will ask United to be organised and to cut down the space for Ozil, Cazorla and Rosicky to operate in. Its why I'm worried more about Ramsey running from a deeper position, if Cleverley plays he has to track his runners, something he is rather shit at doing on a consistent basis.
Somehow I don't think this game will pan out anything like the last few at Old Trafford.
Why does everyone focus on Moyes liking overlapping full backs? He had Baines, meaning using him on that side was a no brainer, but he regularly prefered Hibbert and Neville at right back to Coleman.
Also remember that in the first season or two after he bought Baines he stayed with Lescott at left back, Baines had to really fight his way in. I just think that this overloading the flanks is lazy analysis of Moyes' tactical preferences, based on the system he set up on the end of his time at Everton to suit the players he had.
Also remember that in the first season or two after he bought Baines he stayed with Lescott at left back, Baines had to really fight his way in. I just think that this overloading the flanks is lazy analysis of Moyes' tactical preferences, based on the system he set up on the end of his time at Everton to suit the players he had.
I think this used to be the way to play arsenal but reality is we haven't played like that against them for years - it's been more sit deep and break with pace and power. SAF talks in his book that they found the key against arsenal was intercepting passes rather than bullying them off the ball. Interesting to see what Moyes does but they can be beaten without being physical - SAF proved that
Yep definitely agree with you, that's why I think Moyes will set United up to be quite rigid without the ball, and look to push Arsenal wider. Nicking possession in their own half and breaking using width...full-backs bombing forward to support the wingers, creating 2 vs 1 in the wide areas. If possession is lost United will revert to 2 banks of four with the wide men tucking in and Rooney dropping into midfield to harass Ramsey and Arteta/Flamini . Valencia will start and it will be either Young or Nani methinks...probably Young.
So will we finally win against a top 4 team in the league this season?
In the first half, against Real Sociedad, we struggled to build play from midfield. Ferdinand and Vidic, when on the ball, found themselves being pressed. At the same time, though, La Real pressured high up the field to close down Giggs and Fellaini's influence. They were at times free from being marked, but they didn't drop deep to collect the all and start an attack. It was the same vs. Fulham, where Cleverley and Jones weren't responsible for starting attacks - it was mostly Vidic and Evans (in the first half). The first goal against Fulham arrived as a result of Vidic being able to dribble his way out from the back and play a long ball to Van Persie. (When Cleverley did drop deep, he played a very good ball in the build-up to Rooney's goal.) With this approach, United suffer a lot - a 4-4-2 isn't the best formation to help the midfield in this situation. Against Shakhtar, Moyes used a 4-1-4-1, but he had Carrick as a pivot.
To help combat this problem, Kagawa and Rooney dropped deep to free the midfielders.
When Kagawa dropped deep, Hernández moved to the wing and Roonet moved as a centre-forward. In the first image above, Fellaini was initially marked, but when Kagawa receives the ball and passes it to Ferdinand - Fellaini moves without being marked, and thus Unites switch to a 2-4-1-3 (second image). Giggs receives a pass from Ferdinand and plays it to Hernández, who drops deep unmarked because Fellaini leaves La Real's right back occupied. This was one of United's most successful ways in moving the ball from defence to attack, without needing Giggs to drop deep.
And again, Rooney drops deep, meaning that Kagawa is free to play behind Hernández. It's a really weird system to use. If Arsenal press us high, then we're going to have similar problems - that's if we're without Carrick.He will go negative. Its 442.
I really hope Giggs, Fellaini, Smalling dont start.
I really hope Giggs, Fellaini, Smalling dont start.
Smalling is bound to start unfortunately. Why we don't use Fabio, as readymade a replace as it can get for Rafael is fecking beyond me
So essentially we have one or both of our number 10 and left sided midfielders dropping in and allowing the midfield pairing of Fellaini and giggs to go beyond them? Why would you want Fellaini and giggs beyond Rooney and Kagawa anyway?
In the first half, against Real Sociedad, we struggled to build play from midfield. Ferdinand and Vidic, when on the ball, found themselves being pressed. At the same time, though, La Real pressured high up the field to close down Giggs and Fellaini's influence. They were at times free from being marked, but they didn't drop deep to collect the all and start an attack. It was the same vs. Fulham, where Cleverley and Jones weren't responsible for starting attacks - it was mostly Vidic and Evans (in the first half). The first goal against Fulham arrived as a result of Vidic being able to dribble his way out from the back and play a long ball to Van Persie. (When Cleverley did drop deep, he played a very good ball in the build-up to Rooney's goal.) With this approach, United suffer a lot - a 4-4-2 isn't the best formation to help the midfield in this situation. Against Shakhtar, Moyes used a 4-1-4-1, but he had Carrick as a pivot.
To help combat this problem, Kagawa and Rooney dropped deep to free the midfielders.
When Kagawa dropped deep, Hernández moved to the wing and Roonet moved as a centre-forward. In the first image above, Fellaini was initially marked, but when Kagawa receives the ball and passes it to Ferdinand - Fellaini moves without being marked, and thus Unites switch to a 2-4-1-3 (second image). Giggs receives a pass from Ferdinand and plays it to Hernández, who drops deep unmarked because Fellaini leaves La Real's right back occupied. This was one of United's most successful ways in moving the ball from defence to attack, without needing Giggs to drop deep.
And again, Rooney drops deep, meaning that Kagawa is free to play behind Hernández. It's a really weird system to use. If Arsenal press us high, then we're going to have similar problems - that's if we're without Carrick.
I don't mean go out and kick lumps out of them. I mean in the first 10 mins go and win the battle and get on the front foot rather then be reactive at home. Because if Arsenal get going, it's simple, we lose.
His tactical plan will be to play Jones in midfield to perform the Fletcher/P.Neville role against Arsenal.
I don't understand this recent opinion that 442 is negative. Two strikers and two wingers? Negative?
Don´t understand it either mate. Coppell McCllroy Macari Hill Greenhoff Jordan or Coppell Robson Wilkins Muhren Stapleton Hughes or Strachan Whiteside Robson, Olsen, Stapleton, Hughes or Kanchelskis Ince Keane, Sharpe, Cantona, Hughes or Beckham, Keane Scholes, Giggs, Cantona, Cole etc etc etc. WE ARE 4-4-2 and I love it. Nani Cleverley Carrick Januzaj Rooney RVP against the Arse please. Worrying about the cockneys is not mufc. We WILL win
We showed vs Chelsea that we can do it. We literally boxed Chelsea in. Besides, the key to giving Arsenal hell is interceptions and this season, interception has ironically been one of our strengths.
Arsenal have always looked to dictate the tempo against us. Yet this was Fergie's solution over recent seasons:
''"We didn't need to win the ball against Arsenal, we needed to intercept it. You need good payers who can intercept. We worked out that when the ball was played into [Cesc] Fabregas with his back to goal, he would turn round the corner and meet the return pass... so we would say to our players: 'Stay with the runner, then intercept the pass.' Then we counter-attacked quickly." '' Sir Alex Ferguson
Personally, I'm convinced if we do not attempt a cagey game against them we will be okay. If we simply sit back, to play on the counter, they will have us for dinner with oru current defending. Especially with Flamini back merely, playing on the counter wont be as effective. This is a game that requires us to be on the front foot and with 2 proper wide men IMO With Rooney tasked with haranguing their main holding player. Mainly because we can't risk exposing our selves to sustained assault in a game agaisnt a side in such attacking form.
Agreed. Basically we need to play like we did against Madrid at home last season as opposed to away.
I'm not sure we are on the same wavelength when talking about pressing. We pressed forward against Chelsea....but they let us have the ball in midfield, sat deep and absorbed it and played on the counter. Mourinho played to not lose, hopefully nick a point. We didn't press particularly well when they were playing out from the back.
I'm not suggesting Moyes will set United up to simply sit back, just that he will organise them in 2 banks of four when not in possession and look to force them wide. I agree entirely that interceptions are key, hopefully we can find that midfield stability in the absence of Carrick, I wouldn't bank on it though. Staying with the runner is not one of Cleverley's strengths.
Also just on a side note, intercepting is winning the ball!
Personally I thought its us who forced them to let us have the ball becasue we were on the front foot.
That is why the central paring closing down together is key. Especially for the purpose of intercepting one 2's.
I think he meant in a tackling sense lol for interception is sometimes counted as ball theft[/QUOTE]
Indeed. If we risk and allow Arsenal to freely dictate things we will be hammered IMO
Unfortunately, welbeck would have been ideal to play this way.
Moyes has inherited a team whereas Pellegrini has inherited a squad of many great talents, so it's understandable that their manager will have an easier road ahead in the short term, they've gotta lot of match winners, but in the long run I think think it looks better for us.
Not sure how Arsenal didn't score a goal from one of Sagna's crosses. Kagawa was poor defensively in the second half - got sucked in centrally which left Evra isolated. Sagna with little pressure from us to cross ball. Giggs didn't change that too - failed to press Sagna. I think Kagawa is still a liability down the left defensively. It's happened in a few games this season where he's not disciplined enough to protect Evra. And then this goes all the way back to Young. If he didn't dive midweek, he would have been useful in closing the game down today.
To be fair, at the point they had thrown on every attacking player on their bench and taken off all their "defensive" midfielders. They threw a lot more players forwards as a result hence our guys were always going to be sucked into the middle and leave space out wide. We were always going to be under the cosh from that point on. Overall, I think we dealt with it superbly and limited them to almost nothing all match long.
I think the plan was to have Kagawa and Valencia narrow and to leave both Arsenal full backs wide and don't follow them. If they mark the full backs then it's leaving loads of space for Ozil, Cazorla etc to play in the middle of the pitch. Our tactics were right as it prevented Arsenal from playing through us and therefore had to move the ball wide, although Sagna's crosses were the main real threat.
Not too sure that's a good excuse, though. Arsenal used more width in the second half, so we had to defend left wing, which is there most "lethal" wing. Sagna put in too many crosses and that was a result of poor defending on our end. It's annoying because we could have stopped it, but Giggs clearly wasn't the answer. He was also poor at stopping the crosses and helping Evra defensively, but this won't be discussed certainly because he's a legend and all that. Balanced view required.
I don't believe our tactics were right in the second half. Manchester United can't pretend it's the 07/08 season and leave Evra isolated like this. Again, it's happened in other games as well (Stoke game, for example). The most concerning thing is that Giggs came on... and Sagna still managed to cross the ball without being pressed.
Well done David Moyes. This kind of pressing game is exactly what we've been lacking of late and it was the perfect gameplay to unsettle arsenals possession football. I loved the intensity and aggression of our performance. Hope to see that in our future games too.
Moyes admitted that in the post match interview. Said we could have defended a bit better in the 2nd half so he definitely recognized the problem which is good news
Pressed them brilliantly and the ringleader was Wayne Rooney. Defended from the top for a change and we deserved the clean sheet.
Agreed, I think this fixture is always suited for Welbeck. Had he been on the left wing rather than Kagawa today, we might've had an easier time in the second half. Arsenal completely boxed our left flank out for most of the game. There were only a handful of times that Evra and Kagawa touched the ball where they had options other than to try and dribble their way past their marker.
Pressed them well for the first 20 minutes but after that? We just sat quite deep really ....too deep in the second half. It was basically counter-attacking the whole second half with Rooney just all over the place....but we didn't press that well as a team. It was pretty much how we set up under Ferguson. Arsenal's passing was poor in the first half but once they got Wilshere on their intensity picked up and they dominated the ball.
We rode our luck at times and as Money May alludes to, Sagna was given far too much space and one of those crosses at least should have been tucked away. United deserved the points on the day though.
Interesting tactics from Moyes against Arsenal. I think it's the first time we have seen him play a narrow block. I was doing some research and found out that when Everton played the "big" teams, Moyes had his wingers play narrow. In a 4-4-2, this is a crucial because it stops the team from being overrun in midfield. It gives us midfield equivalence, which is great. While playing narrow is advantageous, it does tend to leave you open on the wings. Sunderland played a narrow, compact block and were destroyed in the second half because of a simple vertical pass to the wings by Januzaj - it breaks the team shape. Also, what is it with the myth that 4-4-2 is dead and top level teams shouldn't use it? Atletico Madrid, Borussia Dortmund, Arsenal, Manchester United, Real Madrid have ALL used 4-4-2 this season. In fact, in transition defence (when the team loses the ball), most teams like to press or defend in a 4-4-2.
Anyway, I think Moyes is trying something different to help Kagawa find his best form for us, when he starts games on the left. I noticed Kagawa and Rooney interchanging in the first half, and in the second half, the same occurred, but Kagawa also drifted infield. In the first image above, Kagawa drifts in centrally and identifies the space behind Arteta (second image shows Arteta's poor positioning). In the third image, Flamini is drawn out to close Kagawa, who heads the ball onto Van Persie (thanks Vermaelen). Ball falls to Rooney and he misses - but the "confusion" Kagawa caused is what starts the move. If we can get more of this interchange, we'll see the better side, though to be fair, he has been in good form this season. He's just not been brilliant.