Ok I have two more items...bare with me..and I really appreciate the comments/suggestions! I put a lot of work into these, so it's good to know someone finds it useful haha
David Moyes - The Tactician
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
- Start date
If only we had Giggs & Scholes at prime, we would not be having this discussion.
And I'm just too lazy to do something like this. Prefer to sit back and criticize others. Much easier!
Haha i feel that too man. I've just been learning so much recently, just trying out my observations and making sure i'm not saying nonsensical things. I love discussing the game. I'm obsessed about it. Thankfully I have music and other channels to keep me from getting carried away.
My analysis on the everton match:
Continuing from Part 1 , Part 2 discusses United's performance against Everton in relation to use of possession in midfield, counterattacking play and defensive shape in midfield.
The key for United will be to be more decisive in these areas. Although it is valuable to have a midfielder who can play these type of passes, it relies on the attackers to ask questions of the defense in these type of situations. Hopefully, Moyes encourages the attacking players to be more aware of their teammates' movements around the box or runs in behind. It will help vary the attacks and make United's offensive organization less predictable.
Giggs finds Rooney who is in space between Everton's midfield and backline. As a result, United have a 4v3 situation against Everton's backline with their midfielders retreating to reduce the numerical advantage. Welbeck makes a good run in behind Everton's backline. However, one of Rooney's issues in central positions is his tendency to default to looking for the wide option first, playing it wide and then darting into the box waiting for a return cross. Perhaps he is following Moyes' instructions, but if Rooney had turned his body towards the goal when he received the ball, he might have spotted Welbeck's run in time to slip him through (red line). Instead, Rooney passes to Januzaj (providing a good wide outlet by staying close to touchline) and the resulting play ends up with Everton conceding a corner. While playing this kind of pass is not inherently bad, it can be inhibiting to the overall team play if it becomes the default option.
Fellaini had a decent performance against Everton. Hassling players off the ball and intercepting Everton's counterattacks. In comparison to his midfield partner, he was the deeper of the two. This situation shows Fellaini playing a quick pass through to Giggs who then provides a pass to Kagawa in a promising position. This sort of play in midfield was missing against Tottenham. Spurs' midfield did a better job than Everton's midfield in constricting the space in midfield, however, there were still gaps that could have been exploited which Jones and Cleverley chose not to venture into.
Kagawa has performed well in the Champions League for United this season. However, he has not been able to translate the same performances to the Premier League. He had a mixed performance against Everton and this graphic provides some insight as to why that was. The black line indicates Kagawa passing to Fellaini. The red line shows Giggs checking his run to present Kagawa an alternative passing option. For a player regarded as forward-thinking, it was surprising to see Kagawa choose not to pass to Giggs. However, this is one instance and in other periods of the game, Kagawa was more involved. Let's not forget the chance he setup for Welbeck towards the end of the first half with a great ball across the box. He will need to be more positive in his play if he hopes to make more of a direct impact on the game and our build-up play.
Vidic has Rooney and Januzaj as passing options. Giggs less so because he's being marked by Barry. Rooney is backpeddling which gives the impression that he does not want the ball in that position. One way to augment the scenario in the first image is to have Rooney make a run towards the middle of the pitch (yellow line closest to Rooney). It would not only cause McCarthy's position to change but Barry would also be distracted by the run and it would give Giggs a chance to check back and get the ball from Vidic and advance play.
In the second image, Rooney (yellow circle) is no longer a good passing option and Barry is even tighter to Giggs than he was before. Januzaj and Valencia are in good positions but since Vidic's passing ability leaves a lot to be desired, he feels more comfortable playing the simple pass. Hence, he passes back to Smalling (black line in second image) and play is recycled. In this situation, it's important for a player like Welbeck to sense the situation and provide an option for Vidic. If he chooses to check back to the right, he could drop in the pocket of space between Everton's CMs and defense, presenting Vidic with a pass through the middle. If Welbeck chooses to go to the left to the pocket of space in between Barry & Pienaar, both midfielders need to cover that situation which gives Giggs some time to open up himself as a good passing option for Vidic.
Continuing from Part 1 , Part 2 discusses United's performance against Everton in relation to use of possession in midfield, counterattacking play and defensive shape in midfield.
United's use of Possession in Midfield:
(Giggs' positive play from the center)
Right from the off, Giggs didn't waste time in playing a forward pass. Kagawa found himself in similar positions against Spurs but neither Jones or Cleverley took the risk in trying to find him. Unfortunately, in this situation, Kagawa's touch got the better of him and United conceded possession. These type of passes are so dangerous because they take the midfield out of the equation. Below are some additional screenshots displaying Giggs' ability to play probing passes in the center.
The key for United will be to be more decisive in these areas. Although it is valuable to have a midfielder who can play these type of passes, it relies on the attackers to ask questions of the defense in these type of situations. Hopefully, Moyes encourages the attacking players to be more aware of their teammates' movements around the box or runs in behind. It will help vary the attacks and make United's offensive organization less predictable.
Giggs finds Rooney who is in space between Everton's midfield and backline. As a result, United have a 4v3 situation against Everton's backline with their midfielders retreating to reduce the numerical advantage. Welbeck makes a good run in behind Everton's backline. However, one of Rooney's issues in central positions is his tendency to default to looking for the wide option first, playing it wide and then darting into the box waiting for a return cross. Perhaps he is following Moyes' instructions, but if Rooney had turned his body towards the goal when he received the ball, he might have spotted Welbeck's run in time to slip him through (red line). Instead, Rooney passes to Januzaj (providing a good wide outlet by staying close to touchline) and the resulting play ends up with Everton conceding a corner. While playing this kind of pass is not inherently bad, it can be inhibiting to the overall team play if it becomes the default option.
Fellaini had a decent performance against Everton. Hassling players off the ball and intercepting Everton's counterattacks. In comparison to his midfield partner, he was the deeper of the two. This situation shows Fellaini playing a quick pass through to Giggs who then provides a pass to Kagawa in a promising position. This sort of play in midfield was missing against Tottenham. Spurs' midfield did a better job than Everton's midfield in constricting the space in midfield, however, there were still gaps that could have been exploited which Jones and Cleverley chose not to venture into.
Kagawa has performed well in the Champions League for United this season. However, he has not been able to translate the same performances to the Premier League. He had a mixed performance against Everton and this graphic provides some insight as to why that was. The black line indicates Kagawa passing to Fellaini. The red line shows Giggs checking his run to present Kagawa an alternative passing option. For a player regarded as forward-thinking, it was surprising to see Kagawa choose not to pass to Giggs. However, this is one instance and in other periods of the game, Kagawa was more involved. Let's not forget the chance he setup for Welbeck towards the end of the first half with a great ball across the box. He will need to be more positive in his play if he hopes to make more of a direct impact on the game and our build-up play.
Vidic has Rooney and Januzaj as passing options. Giggs less so because he's being marked by Barry. Rooney is backpeddling which gives the impression that he does not want the ball in that position. One way to augment the scenario in the first image is to have Rooney make a run towards the middle of the pitch (yellow line closest to Rooney). It would not only cause McCarthy's position to change but Barry would also be distracted by the run and it would give Giggs a chance to check back and get the ball from Vidic and advance play.
In the second image, Rooney (yellow circle) is no longer a good passing option and Barry is even tighter to Giggs than he was before. Januzaj and Valencia are in good positions but since Vidic's passing ability leaves a lot to be desired, he feels more comfortable playing the simple pass. Hence, he passes back to Smalling (black line in second image) and play is recycled. In this situation, it's important for a player like Welbeck to sense the situation and provide an option for Vidic. If he chooses to check back to the right, he could drop in the pocket of space between Everton's CMs and defense, presenting Vidic with a pass through the middle. If Welbeck chooses to go to the left to the pocket of space in between Barry & Pienaar, both midfielders need to cover that situation which gives Giggs some time to open up himself as a good passing option for Vidic.
United's Defensive Shape in Midfield:
One of the reasons the game was so open was due to United's defensive shape in midfield. Although Fellaini made some timely interceptions, he has a habit of getting attracted to the ball. Under Martinez, Everton are more comfortable passing the ball. As a result, they can pass their way out of pressurized situations better then they have in the past. Here both Giggs and Fellaini get attracted to the ball as Everton knock it about between them. They leave a massive hole in midfield and now in Everton's own half, our midfield is compromised and Barkley can collect the ball and drive at the opposition. Fortunately, Everton were wasteful in the final third. Better teams will punish United for allowing that much room.
This picture is a follow-up to the previous one. Coleman dribbles past Evra and is looking for options in the box. Vidic is marking Lukaku tightly and follows him to the edge of the box to make sure he doesn't get much time on the ball if he receives it. Smalling has to shift over to vacate the space left by Vidic which means Rafael is now responsible for Mirallas. Fellaini recovers in time to put Barkley off from a clean shot on goal which leads to a scramble in the box before de Gea collects the ball. This was one of the few occasions, where United's defensive transitioning was slow.
Once again, Fellaini gets attracted to the ball and leaves a void behind him which Lukaku sees so he checks his run to receive the ball (1st image). In the second image, Lukaku plays Deulofeo through on the flank. Evra got caught ball-watching and ends up behind the play. Giggs is also ball-watching and not marking anyone in midfield. He needs to drop immediately because Vidic moved up on Lukaku and Smalling will leave his mark (Mirallas) to try and contain Deulofeo's run. This leaves Mirallas free in the box as shown in the third image. Fortunately, Deulofeu hits it straight at de Gea while he could have passed across the box towards Mirallas who was waiting for the pass or applied a much better finish.
Counterattacking:
This picture illustrates why United haven't been very effective on the counterattack in the league this season. Kagawa and Rooney's runs are covered by Everton's midfield. In addition, they are running away from Welbeck so they have taken themselves out of the game at this point. It seems the strategy is for the wingers to take on and beat the defender when the team is on the break and look to create openings with their pace. However, the issue arises that United are not committing enough numbers to keep this counterattack alive. Either Welbeck holds the ball up and waits for more options or continues to attempt to drive towards the byline. Either way his options are limited, hence why this counterattack petered out.
Kagawa got caught behind the play in this counterattack as Vidic plays the ball to Rooney after the England forward pulled wide to help build the attack. Ideally, Kagawa should be where the yellow rectangle is located. Valencia appears to be goal-side of Oviedo and in this instance, if Kagawa was in the ideal position, he would be able to receive a pass from Vidic and release Valencia towards Everton's box. The play ends with Evra trying to play a clever ball through a very congested 6-yard box.
Here's another illustration of United's dysfunctional organization on the counterattack. Rooney is in no position to support Nani and Coleman tracking back nullifies Rooney's checked run. Januzaj is in a decent position but it requires Nani get the pass spot on otherwise Everton can easily intercept the pass and counterattack. The key here is that instead of checking his run (yellow line), Welbeck keeps darting forward (black line) as if he somehow expects Nani to find him from that position. Credit to Barry and McCarthy for blocking the passing lanes and making it difficult for United to break quickly.
Similar to the previous counterattack, Nani is on the ball and the attackers are moving away from him. At least Rooney or Welbeck should check back and provide a passing option. Not doing so means the player on the ball has to either dribble past a player (risky decision in that position of midfield) or pass the ball sideways or backwards. Nani was able to skip past McCarthy and find Rooney who then played a lovely return pass but Nani was quickly shut down by McCarthy. Nani's movement was the main factor as he continued his run after passing to Rooney.
Giggs' ability to quickly spot and play the forward pass offers an alternative route of attack for United's offensive organization. Although, in games where the play is stretched (end-to-end) or very tight, Giggs' effectiveness is reduced. In stretched games, Giggs has more ground to cover which means there will be times where gaps appear in central midfield. In tight games, his risky style of play hinders United's ability to maintain possession.
The challenge for Moyes is finding the right balance in midfield that complements the attacking players and maintains our defensive shape. On counterattacks, the front 4 attacking players are not always enough to establish an effective counterattack. Forwards need to be willing to check back to provide supporting angles for any player that is on the ball.
Therefore, Moyes will also have the challenge of finding the right combination of attacking players that offers positive movement in central areas and penetrative threat on the flanks. With the January transfer window only a few weeks away, interesting times are ahead as Moyes looks to improve the squad.
Thanks for reading!
Which paper do you write for?
it's called trulyreds..these are my tactical observations...just thought i'd share
So basically moyes has admitted he hasn't changed much since fergie left and as such he can't be put under too much blame. I hope he realizes that not changing anything is the problem. We weren't exactly playing fantastic stuff last season, and that whole pass it out wide approach is not working. He needs to change it up and the faster he does it the better.
Yeah I think some of our sapped confidence is because while Moyes is trying similar tactics to Fergie, we're not getting the same results. The players are used to winning. This is new territory for them. 9th place? At Manchester United? With similar tactics to fergie? What's going on? That's partly how i'd feel if i was manchester united player right now. All that you've known & become accustomed to is changing. That can certainly be a shocking revelation.
I'm also really surprised no one has brought this up before but i think moyes was also disadvantaged by the fact that he was only working with the youngsters during the tour and a few members of senior squad. People talk about Martinez & Pep and how they've transformed their teams. I've noticed both those managers had training camps where all the players were there (all the main ones at least) so they had time to work with the players and transfer their ideas. Moyes never had that. van Persie joined late. de Gea joined late. kagawa joined late. Hernandez didn't even feature. That's lost time. It's like when I'm preparing for a hard semester of uni. If I dont make use of the resources I have when I'm in a less stressful situation, once I'm in a more stressful one, you can imagine the panic.
This isnt to excuse moyes' mistakes at all but the whole transition to Moyes and continuity talk has just seemed like a bunch of hogwash honestly. What were people at United thinking when Gill and Sir Alex walked out the door? Loads of experience and expertise gone. They're still around but it's not the same. The one thing that disappoints me about Moyes is I cant tell what ideas he's trying to impart on this team.
Moyes' public comments in general have been abysmal. The worst part of his (so far short) tenure here imo. He comes across as too defensive in the media, and gives off the vibe that the results he has delivered so far are only a tiny bit below what should be expected, while most fans think we are way off where we should be.
He always finds some external factor and talks about them as if they are outside of his control. Like the last interview where he said somewhere along the lines of "United had many poor games last season as well, but managed to eek out results so people didnt take notice".. It just misses the point. Getting results when we play poorly is needed to challenge for the league and even top 4, and its part of the winning mentality which is the manager's job to instill in his team. Its not just some random change of luck that SAF got results in close games while Moyes doesnt, but Moyes doesnt seem to view it that way. When he makes defensive, negative subs in close games its his own fault when it backfires. Its not "unlucky" when he brings on an extra defender late and the opponents get a winner or similary "lucky" in the same situations last season where SAF would have thrown on Hernandez late to get a winner
Great effort Gladiator, read both and fully agree. Our passing lacks creativity through the middle, with all our CMs struggling to come up with any good ideas through the middle, even though our forwards do provide options more often than not. That's why I think Anderson should get a bit of game time, because when on a bit of a good run of games he can be brilliant at passing quick and running on. It's different from our standard pass out wide and could really give the opposition something different to think about.
Thanks Red shorts and I agree about anderson. that's the one thing that's tough about a top club. You have to produce or you'll never get a chance. Unfortunately, injuries have been ando's downfall for the most part and he should leave for the sake of his career.
Another game at Old Trafford, another embarrassing loss. The Red Devils fell further down the table and further down title race contention. If you asked the majority of Manchester United fans in August where we'd be at this current stage of the season, how many would paint a picture as bleak as this? With confidence low in the United camp, David Moyes must find a way to rekindle the fire and fighting spirit before United's season gets any worse. With no Carrick in midfield, Moyes must also find a temporary solution to patch up an already vulnerable midfield where there looks to be no solution bar dipping into the transfer market.
Starting formations:
The starting formations held true for each team throughout the match. Occasionally, van Persie would drop to help in midfield and offer a passing outlet to the CMs. Cabaye sat behind Remy ghosting through United's lines of defense while Gouffran & Sissoko maintained width, drifting in and out of the halfspaces (described here)whenever Cabaye needed support breaking down United in the wider central spaces. Both sets of wingers on either team switched wings as Moyes & Pardew searched for probing angles to break down the stubborn defenses.
Tactical Summary:
- MUFC-defensive transitioning: Whenever United lost the ball, 2 or 3 United players would attempt to surround and pressure the ball carrier into making a mistake. Hernandez, one of the few who could hold his head up higher after his performance, relentlessly harried Newcastle's CBs and wingbacks. Ensuring they didn't have all day to think about their next choice. In order to defensively transition more effectively, it's not enough for 2 or 3 United players to instantly press but also for other players further away from the ball carrier to cut off passing lanes. For Newcastle, there was at least one passing option which made it easier to break United's initial wave of pressure. As the game wore on, United players exhibited less effort in putting Newcastle under pressure.
- NUFC-defensive shape: Defensively, Newcastle played with a mid-low block alternating between 4-4-2 and 4-4-1-1 depending on where United had the ball. When either Evans or Vidic had the ball, Cabaye and Remy dropped onto Cleverley & Jones denying the passing lanes, leaving Gouffran and Sissoko to cover the wide areas. This allowed Tiote free reign to hassle our CMs as they received the pass. Anita would cover behind him and ensure that the path to RvP was at least partially blocked. When the ball is passed to de Gea, Tiote would push up onto Jones, Cabaye to Evans, and Remy on Vidic. As the game progressed, Newcastle became more conservative with their pressure from the front but worked hard to keep United from enjoying possession in central midfield.
- NUFC & MUFC-offensive transitioning: Surprisingly, both teams were on the whole, cumbersome in their offensive transitions. Whenever Newcastle won the ball, they did not look to break with pace. Instead, they elected to keep possession and build their attacks through Cabaye progressively. It wasn't uncommon for Newcastle's attackers to be outnumbered even in early phases of their counterattack (usually 4 v 6). As for United, the ball carrier, was disadvantaged as the surrounding teammates ran away from his reference point and left few passing options except via sideways/backwards route. This slowed down United on the counterattack and made it easier for Newcastle to recover to their defensive positions. One approach outlined a sense of caution, the other a sense of disjointedness.
- NUFC- Ben Arfa sub: This was a very astute substitution by Alan Pardew. Not only did Ben Arfa take the sting out of the match with his hold-up play, he also maintained possession for Newcastle. At this point of the match, the Reds were showing little desire to win the ball back, making it all the more easier for Ben Arfa to pick spots to pass and dribble through. Putting Ben Arfa on the pitch only added insult to injury.
Cleverley & Jones in Midfield:
Cleverley is gesturing to Jones that he should pass back to Evans. One has to question why Tom couldn't have moved himself to a more helpful position (yellow line). Arguably, if Jones passed to Evans with Evans providing a quick pass to Cleverley, he would be in a decent position to advance play. However, when Jones passed the ball back, Newcastle instantly pushed up and forced United to switch the play which proved troublesome as Newcastle already denied the Vidic the space to find Nani.
This situation highlights United's insistence to use the wide areas. Cleverley plays a good diagonal pass out to Rafael. It's easy to see the sense in making this decision. Gouffran drops towards the flank as Cleverley makes the pass, Coloccini leaves space in behind for Hernandez to run into. Although it's not included in the picture, Rafael is in acres of space which is why Gouffran is dropping to recover his position. Unfortunately, Rafael's delivery into the box was easy picking and the chance was gone.
The red line shows an alternative that Cleverley could have used. However, since he took an extra touch before making the pass, Cabaye had time to drop and make the passing lane to van Persie more difficult. Nonetheless, the fact Cleverley wasn't even perceiving van Persie as a passing option shows where United should at least consider tweaking the mindset. Using RvP would have given Adnan (takes up a great position) a good chance of driving at Newcastle's defense in what Moyes regards as his best position.
One of the few times Jones got forward in the whole match. From Adnan's pass, Jones had a decent shot on goal. At the very least, this situation showed what United will need in the next CM they choose to bring in. The shuttler (akin to box-to-box player) joins the attack and uses timing of runs to exploit defensive gaps. Scholes was an expert at this and exemplifies one reason why he got so many goals with his head (i.e. 1-0 winner at Etihad).
Issues in Midfield:
After Carrick's injury, United have struggled in the league to maintain balance in defense and attack. Jones is tracking back after a United attack. The first issue here is Cleverley and Jones are so far apart. It highlights United's lack of defensive solidity & balance without Carrick. This was such a regular occurrence, I felt convinced that our CMs were being asked too much to do.
The rightmost rectangle resembles the area you would like your CMs to occupy to screen the opposition to one flank or the other. Cabaye drifts into the space at the rightmost rectangle while Remy drifts into the space at the leftmost rectangle. The second issue is the disparity between United's backline. Evans (not in the picture-closer to half-circle of box) is much deeper than Vidic & Evra (near the 12 yard box). Why does he need to be so deep? Who is he marking? The furthest forward player is Remy. Even if he's trying to anticipate a ball over the top to Remy, it's more important to be in line with the rest of the backline to create a wall of defense. Because of Evra's suspect defending at times, Vidic's tendency is to overcompensate which can further open the gap between Vidic and his CB partner. If Jones & Cleverley had a third partner in midfield, I argue Jones would have less impetus to join the attack but would be more able to pick his moments rather than feel forced to join the attack out of necessity and comprising the overall balance of the team.
Another issue which crept into United's performance was Cleverley & Jones not making themselves open when either Vidic or Evans were on the ball. It made it easier for Newcastle to contain the play in midfield and keep play in front of them. It explained why the CBs would sometimes hoof the ball upfield. They literally had no passing options open to them. Rafael should be wide as possible in this situation. Because he's not, his body shape isn't ready to receive the ball and see the play in front of him. Therefore, when he turns, Gouffran will have time to catch up and apply pressure. In fact, this is exactly what happens as Evans plays the ball to Rafael. Rafael turns and Gouffran puts him under pressure and Rafael passes the ball out of bounds.
Cleverley also should be more demanding for the ball. Not sure if pointing to your feet is enough for your center back to know you really want the ball.
Once again, the space between Jones & Cleverley is already compromised. It's not all their fault though. Jones is cutting off the pass to Remy. Cleverley is making the pass to Anita more difficult. Hernandez passively tracks Tiote's run. Once, Cabaye passes to Tiote, Hernandez stops and both Jones & Cleverley have to quickly to react to Tiote's run to prevent him from having a free pop from 30 yards out. Jones gets over to Tiote to put off his shot and it goes out for a goal kick. While Newcastle made nothing out of this situation, there's a good chance a better team would have at least got a shot on goal.
What Moyes has attempted in other games is tucking the winger inside. So Januzaj would be covering the passing lane to Remy and Rafael would adjust his positioning in case Cabaye chooses to attempt to release Santon down the flank. Januzaj moving inward, encourages Jones to move inward as well giving less room for Tiote to run through. However, this sort of gameplan was used against Leverkusen, a team not necessarily down for putting dangerous crosses into the box but using inverting wingers/wide forwards instead. You can understand Moyes' concern to make sure the flanks were well covered. Now do you see why Sir Alex asked Rooney to play deeper last season? They knew his industry would help solidify midfield even if it meant he wasn't as productive.
An Argument for a Midfield 3
Below are a few screenshots highlighting Newcastle's ease of playing through our midfield:
Below is an example of better midfield positioning:
Anderson, van Persie and Jones form a 2-1 in midfield. With Cabaye taken off, Newcastle's play focuses on Ben Arfa. This makes it easier for United to keep Newcastle to one flank, in front of them, and away from the space in between the lines. As the yellow lines indicate, Jones & Rafael are both in positions to pressure Ben Arfa if Anita chooses to pass to him. Now, Newcastle have to take more time in building their attack, decreasing the likelihood of United being pulled out of position. As the next screenshot shows, this shape didn't last for long.
Mind the Gaps
With no consistent link between midfield and attack, limited service to the forwards, and being continually stretched in midfield, I think it's clear that until Carrick returns, we should move to a midfield 3 to equate the matchups in midfield and not leave our CMs with so much work on and off the ball. We saw with Giggs & Fellaini against Everton that despite their positive play, it did little to discourage Everton from attacking the gaps voided by either midfielder.
Unfortunately, this means one of Rooney or RvP will most likely be dropped from the team. Based on form, I would choose to drop van Persie as Rooney has had an awesome season thus far and he deserves to start. This brings the dilemma of not starting our two world-class strikers. However, there are other issues we must be aware of. Our wingers except Januzaj are not in form and not offering a consistent threat throughout the match. As a result, our strikers are feeding on scraps. van Persie is facing injury troubles. Our unbalanced midfield is having a negative effect on our backline. Last but not least, confidence is low throughout the squad.
Is it enough to hope van Persie and Rooney can carry us or should we be looking for a more balanced approach to stem the tide until Carrick returns to the fold? As I've argued above, I strongly feel we should take the latter option. Giving the midfield pair an extra partner in midfield would match up against the opposition in midfield and a hopefully a reliable link between midfield and attack. Whether it's Kagawa or Rooney behind van Persie, either player will have to be more disciplined and monitor the type of runs they make into the final third. Oscar is a prime example of a balanced number 10 who accepts the defensive tasks assigned to him. Despite these defensive duties, he finds ways to join the attack, create space for his teammates through his movements and score goals.
Manchester United have been known for incessantly exploiting the wings with the archetypal 4-4-2 or using a 4-2-3-1 (variant of 4-4-2) for many years. Perhaps, as a temporary solution, David Moyes will allow the use of 4-3-3 as he tries to pick up the pieces from two consecutive home defeats. Something has to change, otherwise United are in for a very very long season.
As I said in another thread if we're talking 433/451 from clev, fellaini, jones, ando and giggs then I don't see the point, I'd much rather just tell two of them to sit just ahead of the defenders and stop them trying to push up or support out wide because they don't cover each other well enough to do it. The key problems there are positionally most of them don't know where to go or how to cover their man, adding a third midifelder won't change that, it might give more trackers but we've already seen the tracking can be poor there this season and what it will do is take out an attacker who might do something. The other key issue is passing. The only player who could make a difference passing wise is Rooney and that would only be worthwhile if he was deep enough to be the cm, because if he's the spare man then it's the same problem you just highlighted with that potential Clev pass to RVP, most the time the passing is either going to be too cautios, too slow, or too unimaginiative to play that pass well enough, and even then that only works if Moyes will consistently use nani/januzaj because you need players willing to come inside and he's been reluctant to do that.
I think the only real change we could make, particularly if RVP is fit, is Rooney next to Jones, Kagawa off RVP. But that takes out an inform Rooney which is not ideal and possibly could lead to issues with him, but I think unless clev/fellaini snap out of their rut that's the best move we can make until Carrick is back.
I think the only real change we could make, particularly if RVP is fit, is Rooney next to Jones, Kagawa off RVP. But that takes out an inform Rooney which is not ideal and possibly could lead to issues with him, but I think unless clev/fellaini snap out of their rut that's the best move we can make until Carrick is back.
I disagree. I think adding a third midfielder does help. But keep in mind I said that third midfielder needs to be disciplined otherwise it wont work. Adding a third midfielder doesnt take away an attacking option imo. They would act as the link man between midfield and attack as well as a defensive buffer helping the other two midfielders screen the opposition to either flank. If there's no link between midfield and attack, what's the point? How else are we going to get service to the forwards. I think the tracking is poor because we only have two trackers in there. We're numerically disadvantaged.
What we should be trying to do is screen the opposition from flank to flank and keep them from playing in between the lines. Currently, there is no way to stop that. There's just way too many gaps. Adding a third midfielder who has good defensive awareness at least adds some solidarity and in my mind leads to the other CMs not being dragged out of position as much. It would be much better for jones who is a defender and likes to see the play ahead of him. That's why he's so good in that destroyer role.
If rooney is the only one who can make a difference passing-wise then my guess is you're assuming that we're continuing with the same expansive, isolated setup we've done over the past few seasons. I'm recommending we control midfield first because in the modern game, that area is crucial. Unless you have WC wingers who can consistently trouble the opposition, it's a hard thing to get away. I would put Fellaini/Jones next to Giggs with Kagawa ahead of them. The issue with our passing for me is that we're not even looking for the central passing options when they're wide open. Cleverley's confidence is shot but Fellaini looked alright against Everton so I'd be willing to give him a shot.
It showed with our performance against Leverkusen, the effectiveness of having a link man who can link with his two CM partners AND that his CM partners are able to find him. That's why I have Giggs in there. Giggs and Anderson are the only ones who will consistently look for that forward pass. Fellaini does it too but mostly when there's open space.
I just dont see how persisting with a midfield two gets us anywhere. Yeah okay we have the two CMs sit deeper but then that means we are inviting more pressure onto us. It's harder to play a high block because there's not enough cohesion between the midfield and backline. There are tradeoffs with both but I think the issue is that our CMs in a midfield 2 have too much to do. In a midfield 3, they're roles are more specifically defined and I think it makes it easier for our CMs overall to carry out their duties.
Feel free to disagree ash.
I'll try and break it up as probably will be easier for us both to read, can see that we both can go for the long posts!
I agree that adding a third midifelder helps but it depends on the situation and for me it's not like we've been playing with two straight up top. We've played Kagawa in recent weeks through the middle but it doesn't make the midfielders pass it any better. The one time we saw it was with Giggs against Bayer Lev, but they afforded us plenty of space and Giggs is the one player in the middle who will always take a chance, but he's not always able to play and inconsistent- against Everton it didn't work the same at all despite no formation change. If he's not there then you've got Jones with his slow passing with no real thought of developing a move, clev/fellaini with their slow, limited and overly cautius use of the ball and then Ando with his erraticness.
I agree we need a link from midfield to attack but Rooney and Kagawa give that link, the problem is that the midifeld don't give them the ball well enough or often enough to then actually attack. As I said if you want them to drop deeper, I think they'll have to drop pretty deep at which point I'd say just drop the other midfielder, put Rooney there as he's gonna spend his time deep anyway and have kagawa and RVP up top.
So with this third midfielder who adds "good defensive awareness", are we now talking about three off Jones, Giggs/Clev and Fellaini? As that's all I can think off unless you're including Rooney/Kagawa whom I'm not sure fit the bill, ok maybe Rooney but as I said if Rooney is going to come deep than just drop the other midfielder as Jones and Rooney for me with Kagawa ahead gives us a lot more.
I agree that going 451/433 could be good at a time when you need to grind it out but the reality is that the midfielders are both not good enough and bar jones and the odd occassion Giggs out of form. So I don't think adding another one of them solves the issue. I think it will just pin us back even deeper because we still won't be able to pass out effectively but we've also just lost another attacker. If it were the attackers being off form but the midfielders looked up for the fight than fair enough, but they're the biggest problem.
I've somewhat covered this above but the problem is Giggs is both unable to play the majoirty of games and also very inconsistent. Brilliant against Bayer Lev, off the pace against Everton. i agree that Giggs will be more benefitial in that sort of setup and can play the passes to allow Rooney/Kagawa to then create but as I said he can't always play and we've already seen before that even with kagawa/Rooney trying to help it won't always make the difference. If Giggs could play every game than I'd be all for him next to Jones as his inconsistency would be worth the risk if he had the energy but he simply doesn't.
So if you accept Giggs can't always play you're either going to take a gamble on Ando (who tbf looked better than clev/fellaini in his last game) or you're gonna have to bring one of the other two in, in which case you're then back to the problem that they don't play that sort of passing. May be when they're confident they might but if that were the case we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
Basically from what I can tell you either want to play : Jones Giggs
rooney/kagawa
or Jones
Rooney Fellaini/Clev/Giggs
At which in the above as I said you can't play Giggs every game and whoever comes in doesn't play the passing required to make it work, plus it's not really much different to what we do now, both kagawa and rooney already drop, they could do it slightly more but I don't think that's going to make a massive difference.
And then in the second formation that comes back to my earlier point of if Rooney is going to come that deep anyway why not just put him in the middle and have Kagawa ahead of him. I think the actual creativity you would get there would mitigate any defnesive weakness Rooney might bring, which tbh is probably negliible as he'd put in a better shift than clev/giggs would and Fellaini (unless he does his 1st half against Everton).
It wouldn't be ideal to move Rooney deeper and I don't see it flying with him but that's the only realistic thing I can think off, as regardless of how many of the midfielders you put in all it's going to add is numbers. Their positional play will still be an issue and the attack will take an even further dent as now we'll have more players deeper but no one to actually pass the ball out, so then that means the lone striker will have to come deeper. Like I said if it were the wingers playing poorly, or all but one of the strikers than fair enough, or if the midifelders were playing better, but not when they're the weakness in the team.
I agree that adding a third midifelder helps but it depends on the situation and for me it's not like we've been playing with two straight up top. We've played Kagawa in recent weeks through the middle but it doesn't make the midfielders pass it any better. The one time we saw it was with Giggs against Bayer Lev, but they afforded us plenty of space and Giggs is the one player in the middle who will always take a chance, but he's not always able to play and inconsistent- against Everton it didn't work the same at all despite no formation change. If he's not there then you've got Jones with his slow passing with no real thought of developing a move, clev/fellaini with their slow, limited and overly cautius use of the ball and then Ando with his erraticness.
I agree we need a link from midfield to attack but Rooney and Kagawa give that link, the problem is that the midifeld don't give them the ball well enough or often enough to then actually attack. As I said if you want them to drop deeper, I think they'll have to drop pretty deep at which point I'd say just drop the other midfielder, put Rooney there as he's gonna spend his time deep anyway and have kagawa and RVP up top.
So with this third midfielder who adds "good defensive awareness", are we now talking about three off Jones, Giggs/Clev and Fellaini? As that's all I can think off unless you're including Rooney/Kagawa whom I'm not sure fit the bill, ok maybe Rooney but as I said if Rooney is going to come deep than just drop the other midfielder as Jones and Rooney for me with Kagawa ahead gives us a lot more.
I agree that going 451/433 could be good at a time when you need to grind it out but the reality is that the midfielders are both not good enough and bar jones and the odd occassion Giggs out of form. So I don't think adding another one of them solves the issue. I think it will just pin us back even deeper because we still won't be able to pass out effectively but we've also just lost another attacker. If it were the attackers being off form but the midfielders looked up for the fight than fair enough, but they're the biggest problem.
I've somewhat covered this above but the problem is Giggs is both unable to play the majoirty of games and also very inconsistent. Brilliant against Bayer Lev, off the pace against Everton. i agree that Giggs will be more benefitial in that sort of setup and can play the passes to allow Rooney/Kagawa to then create but as I said he can't always play and we've already seen before that even with kagawa/Rooney trying to help it won't always make the difference. If Giggs could play every game than I'd be all for him next to Jones as his inconsistency would be worth the risk if he had the energy but he simply doesn't.
So if you accept Giggs can't always play you're either going to take a gamble on Ando (who tbf looked better than clev/fellaini in his last game) or you're gonna have to bring one of the other two in, in which case you're then back to the problem that they don't play that sort of passing. May be when they're confident they might but if that were the case we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
Basically from what I can tell you either want to play : Jones Giggs
rooney/kagawa
or Jones
Rooney Fellaini/Clev/Giggs
At which in the above as I said you can't play Giggs every game and whoever comes in doesn't play the passing required to make it work, plus it's not really much different to what we do now, both kagawa and rooney already drop, they could do it slightly more but I don't think that's going to make a massive difference.
And then in the second formation that comes back to my earlier point of if Rooney is going to come that deep anyway why not just put him in the middle and have Kagawa ahead of him. I think the actual creativity you would get there would mitigate any defnesive weakness Rooney might bring, which tbh is probably negliible as he'd put in a better shift than clev/giggs would and Fellaini (unless he does his 1st half against Everton).
It wouldn't be ideal to move Rooney deeper and I don't see it flying with him but that's the only realistic thing I can think off, as regardless of how many of the midfielders you put in all it's going to add is numbers. Their positional play will still be an issue and the attack will take an even further dent as now we'll have more players deeper but no one to actually pass the ball out, so then that means the lone striker will have to come deeper. Like I said if it were the wingers playing poorly, or all but one of the strikers than fair enough, or if the midifelders were playing better, but not when they're the weakness in the team.
With respect to the so called 2 man midfield and 3 man midfield, we operate with 4 midfielders, 2 wide and 2 in the middle. However when a team loses possession the wide midfielders dont just sit out wide. A 4 man midfield (with 2 of them being wide players) can if doing their jobs properly cope against a 3 man midfield. The defensive pattern effectively becomes 4 defenders and 4 midfielders v 3 attackers and 3 midfielders and possibly 1 forward defender. its still a 1 player advantage if done right.
One of the first things young players learn is to become compact when out of possession.
One of the first things young players learn is to become compact when out of possession.
Agree with Stack. If the midfield 2 are getting swamped then the wide players come in and help. Welbeck is good at this, though less good at the wide part.
The problem with that is when we have a winger stretching the pitch high up on the right touchline, a wing back bombing up the pitch on the left and there's a fast turnover of possession. In that situation in a 4-4-2 you have 3 defenders and 2 midfielders (3 if the left winger is covering adequately for Evra) against 3 attackers and 3 midfielders.
Staying compact in two banks of 4 in the modern game whilst also being adventurous and dynamic doesn't really work.
Well this all comes back to players roles and not the positions on a page. With respect to 433 for example wide defenders still bomb forward and overlap, when that breaks down you have essentially 334 and whats important isnt the numbers on a page but the players roles in that situation. So basically the same issue you are using as an example.
I think we're reaching the same conclusions in some parts. I only disagree with you about our other midfielders. We have a lot of issues and I know that moving to a midfield 3 wont fix all of them. I just cant see how a midfield 2 is better. We'd have to use a setup where the wingers tuck in but it seems like Moyes doesnt want to employ this when teams in the EPL do like to use width. We're sort of caught in a catch-22 but I think the tradeoffs favor the midfield 3.
you're right that Cleverley is doing nothing but playing safe passes but this is due to confidence. Jones isn't a good passer and Fellaini isnt either. Anderson is erratic as well and so is Giggs. For me, I'm just not sure what choice we have. I would much rather prefer that we are not numerically outnumbered in midfield as it seems to cause us even more problems.
I think playing Rooney behind Kagawa isn't a bad bet but I'm curious why you dont think Kagawa should be in that position. The idea behind what i'm saying that is that while initially our midfield will be deeper, having a 3rd midfielder who can retain possession will be useful for working the ball upfield. One of the reasons we struggle to do this is because players rarely take up positions to complement where the teammate on the ball is. It's very annoying. However, I think you're overexaggerating the bit about our midfielders playing the forward pass. The question comes down to how difficult in that given situation is it for a midfielder like Jones,Fellaini, Cleverley to play the forward pass. If a player is open and the pass is not difficult yet the aforementioned players still feel incapable of making the pass, then something is clearly wrong. The other issue is that we like to pass wide a lot!
That's why I think we need a 3rd midfielder. For those times where the team finds itself in a higher phase of build up play, having a player to link play between midfield and attack is crucial for us because our MFs are already so timid and rarely break from their lines and our strikers do not drop enough. Our MF 2 need a break. They have no one else there to drag the opposition CMs out of position. At least if we match the opposition in midfield, then I think we have a better chance of maintaining some control.
Kagawa/Rooney would have much more restricted role but I think it would be for the betterment of the team. We saw the effect of it last season and until Carrick returns, then I feel this is what we must do. I think the way we have played with Shinji as a 10 has given a false impression that the midfield 3 won't work. I think it will but it will require whoever is the most advanced midfielder to be more disciplined. Because at the very least we need to do a better job of maintaining our shape. I know you said our MFs arent very good at tracking anyway which is true. I just feel that gets exposed more in a 2 than it does a 3.
Good points though Ash. I think if you draw up some diagrams I can get a better sense of what you mean. I feel like we have two different interpretations of what 3rd midfielder means for us.
Well this is something we executed against Leverkusen and Arsenal. However for other teams, I get the impression Moyes is less certain about employing that tactic. Tucking in the wingers would certainly be an option and I mentioned this in my piece above. We'd be giving the opposition the wide areas which isnt necessarily the worst thing in the world. It still draws on maintaining discipline because if the tucked in winger gets dragged out of position, there could be a gap for the opponent to exploit, compromising the structure in midfield.
It's a very interesting problem. Even if the wingers tuck in for our defensive organization, we still have to rectify our offensive transitions and the fact that we are very disjointed when we counterattack. We really struggle to link play and it doesnt matter if Rooney or Rvp drops, the problem still remains. It leads me to believe something is a bit off with Moyes' tactics
I tend to agree with Ash here. Rooney link the middle with forwards effectively. With him we can alternate between 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 as needed in the game without substitution. What we lack is a player who can support Carrick in the middle and I think Fellaini can do it. Moyes should ask him to operate in a more attacking role giving a two way link through him & Rooney to provide for goals.
However my fantasy formation would be a 4-1-4-1. Have to choose Young as he plays wider than Nani/Januzaj who tend to cut in and overlap Kagawa. Good workrate all through the middle and ideal balance between attack and support.
------------ Jones --------------
Valencia - Rooney - Kagawa - Young
------------ RvP --------------
This is probably a bit out of leftfield but with respect to our central midfield problems we do have a couple of players who have some of the neccesary attributes to possibly solve the issue. Firstly our main problem is a lack of forward movement out of midfield and also midfielders not committing defenders through their ability to run with the ball. Both Kagawa and Januzaj are very good with the ball at their feet, they have good vision, are quick and both have a great work ethic. They both have a nice passing range and both have good body shape and discipline when it comes to tracking and covering defensive lines. Players need to be adaptable and they are both capable of providing creative passes forward and dont need to be limited to just wide areas.
While it isn't something I like too much, Januzaj and Kagawa can play number 8 as you say and considering our midfield stocks and how frequently all our midfielders miss games it's probably worth a try to give one of them a shot there. However I prefer both further forward.
Bingo
Ye see but I'm not sure why you couldnt swap Rooney & Kagawa. I would rather Kagawa be our link man because I think his attributes are suited to that better than Rooney. Just my opinion though. I would rather Rooney be further forward where his movement and style of play can be rewarded. People forget that in CM positions Rooney likes to hit the ball long but he's not someone who usually looks for the pass through the middle first. That's a huge difference between him and Kagawa. But for right now, I think you may be right. Hopefully shinji can get into some form so we can really see him light up those midfield areas.
I'm still learning about the game so my opinions arent very refined. But i feel this is good for me. Putting out thoughts and then discussing it.
I think we're going to need to draw diagrams to really get a keen sense of what we're all trying to describe here.
Why? I did a post in another midifeld 2 thread on this. Kagawa in his best season (2011/12) had lesser goals and assists than Rooney in 2012/13 which was not his best. In 2011/12, Rooney was a scoring machine 37 goals. However I read it, Rooney comes across as better on field than Kagawa's talent in creating!
Yeah but when he was a scoring machine he was playing as a 9. It's nice that when you play him deeper he can still contribute goals. How many of rooney's assists came from set pieces though? Just to be fair. He's had a fair amount this season from corners. I would expect Rooney to have more goals than Kagawa too. He's a striker after all. But when we talk about creating, there are different ways to create. Personally, I think kagawa's passing in the final third is better than Rooney's. I daresay Januzaj is pretty close too. The boy has excellent vision.
I think Kagawa has a better first touch, better awareness and can play in tight spaces alot better than Rooney can. We dont really see this from any of our players because right now, we dont give them the ball in these tight spaces. It comes down to what you want from a player in that position. Rooney will get more goals than a player Ozil will but Ozil is more likely to get more assists and be involved in dictating play. Rooney dropped so deep last season just to help the play along. He shouldn't have to be doing that but he does it pretty well.
Rooney plays the 10 position like a striker. His first instinct is to get it wide to Valencia and then bomb into the box for the return ball. Even when there are options around him centrally, he prefers to get it wide. This was the same under Fergie too. I can't fault him for that. He's a striker first and foremost but that doesnt mean he does not look to pass it in central areas. He just prefers the wide option.
I call kagawa the king of pre-assists because he doesnt always have to be the one setting the assist up but he'll put you in a position to set up an assist. For example against Leverkusen, Kagawa was the one who started the counterattack for the first goal and he played the chipped pass to Rooney who then supplied Smalling with a great touch and opening to score. But who gets the assist? Rooney. That shouldn diminish what Kagawa did in that instance. You should look at some of the dortmund videos. these situations happen a lot.
And rooney had 34 goals that season but I see your point
It's only half time but I basically see our formation today as:
And it's benefitting the team massively. In the absence of a more defensive midfielder (Jones/Carrick) I think Moyes has thought it best to pack the midfield a bit, rather than stubbornly stick to a two man midfield. With Rooney and Giggs in there, there is enough creativity and Rooney has been spraying some lovely cross field passes about. Cleverley adds tempo, keeps possession and tries his hardest to bring the defensive elements, even if that is a part of his game that isn't so well rounded yet. It sacrifices some of Rooney's game, he starts off attacks from this position but can't also be in the box when the crosses come in to get himself on the scoresheet. It's what we have needed to do for a while tbh. Moyes is risking making Rooney unhappy again given that he stated himself that that is the reason he wanted to leave last season. Best decision for the team though imo.
De Gea
Rafael Jones Evans Evra
Cleverley Rooney Giggs
Valencia Welbeck Januzaj
And it's benefitting the team massively. In the absence of a more defensive midfielder (Jones/Carrick) I think Moyes has thought it best to pack the midfield a bit, rather than stubbornly stick to a two man midfield. With Rooney and Giggs in there, there is enough creativity and Rooney has been spraying some lovely cross field passes about. Cleverley adds tempo, keeps possession and tries his hardest to bring the defensive elements, even if that is a part of his game that isn't so well rounded yet. It sacrifices some of Rooney's game, he starts off attacks from this position but can't also be in the box when the crosses come in to get himself on the scoresheet. It's what we have needed to do for a while tbh. Moyes is risking making Rooney unhappy again given that he stated himself that that is the reason he wanted to leave last season. Best decision for the team though imo.
Yeah we're definitely playing a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 but I think Adnan is given a free role rather than being restricted to the left wing.
Does anybody feels we play a 4-1-4-1 formulation recently ? Jones links up defence and midfield and Rooney plays in midfield alongside Cleverley.
4141 / 433 / 451..whatever it is it's working.
Dont really feel we should worry about the precise formation too much. As Sacchi mentioned, the movement is more important. City have shown that even though they play with two strikers. Other teams have too
I am glad we are finally taking a step away from the 4-4-2 that Fergie already last year saw as a huge issue. Rooney in my opinion gets an even more vital role in a team like this than as a striker.
Last years issues were hopefully more about him getting shoved out-wide where he was not too good at all. If Rooney is satisfied with this role, then it will be like we have a new monster signing at our hands.
I don't see why he would be satisfied with it when he said this in October: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/09/wayne-rooney-reasons-leave-manchester-united
Moyes is using him no different to how Fergie did when he played him in midfield. It's clearly best for the team but will Rooney be any more accepting of it?