I mean there's literally a line for each goalkeeper tracking them against each statistic in the overall metric, so unless you're classing De Gea as the outlier because his line against pretty much each stat is miles away from the other lines then I don't really know what to say. That is a quite astonishing takeaway from those stats. Am I living in an alternate reality where +6 and +7 aren't double (or more than double) +3?
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 58
- Clean sheets
- 25
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 2
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) look forward to a new life under Ruben Amorim. What system will we be playing? What players will impress? and how will it all go? We also say goodbye to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and review United's 3-0 win at home against Leicester City.
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Would you take Lloris over De Gea?
God no. Surely nobody would.
Biggest downgrade since Ronaldo & Tevez > Valencia & Owen
It’s now starting to sound as though Dave can barely get out of his gurney to claim a cross.
Truth is, Dave has been outstanding this season, including claiming sweeping, claiming crosses, and distributing the ball. And no keeper in the PL surpasses Dave in shot stopping, an attribute of keeping that no matter how much the game has changed in recent years is still be far the most important attribute any top keeper must excel at.
I don't know, some posters are making ddg sound like Lloris. They're exaggerating his negatives as if we have a keeper that is that crap.
He's got better, I'll give him that but he's still below par in many repsects. His distribution and ability to beat the press with simple passes is awful for a top level keeper.
As for that... he's a maker of great saves, but he's not a great shot stopper anymore. Just way too inconsistent. Plenty of keepers in the league are just as good if not better and more conistent than him in this regard.
It was the massively pro De Gea poster who introduced the statistics as part of his passionate defence for Dave that showed Lloris was worth more than twice as many goals to Spurs last season than De Gea was to tonight.
If you're asking if I'd sign Lloris, of course I wouldn't. But then I wouldn't sign De Gea either to be fair.
If you can't see that the differences, between a keeper with +3 and a keeper with +4 over the course of an entire 38 game season, are so miniscule as to not be worth talking about, then I can't help you.
Above average say the stats
You wouldn't sign De Gea if given the choice?! Nothing about your posting in this thread has given this impression at all. I for one am shocked.
Above average in terms of what aspect?
If you can't see the differences between David De Gea and Ederson and then I don't really know what to say. Well done, you've genuinely got me speechless.
Sweeping and distribution
Official PL stats from Opta
Sweeping -16th
High claims - 20th
Punches - 8th
As for passing.
Have a read through this and look at the graphics. He's very much part of the average pack.
https://analyticsfc.co.uk/blog/2023/03/03/goalkeeper-passing-risk-versus-reward/
What exactly is "par"? De Gea is just not "awful" with respect to simple passes. Yes, even I can put together a video of poor passes by De Gea, but I can also put together a video of poor passes by Alisson and Ederson, the two keepers in the PL who I would agree are, overall, better keepers. But neither are coming to OT, ever, and I'm not having any suggestions (which you are not making) that we should get rid of De Gea for Henderson, or Ramsdale, or Sa, or Pickford. If we're ready to spend say the 100m it would probably take to pry Pope from Newcastle (who don't need to sell players) and kick De Gea to the bench, fine, but that's going to eat into the trust fund that we're going to need to bring in a top striker (say Osimhen) and a top progressive midfielder (say De Jong). Perhaps the Qatar group will buy the club and perhaps they'll have a 300m budget to buy all of Osimhen, De Jong and Pope, but I seriously doubt that will be the case. I really like Pope and see potential greatness in him and if ETH says bring him in, I'm on board, but I'm not board with bringing in Pope it meant we were therefore unable to bring in a top striker and top midfielder.
As for the "maker of great saves but not a great shot stopper anymore" argument, did you even watch our last few matches? These were not fingertip saves on the back of poor positioning. These were properly stopped shots that arose both from fantastic positioning and a strong hand at the right place at the right time. Speculation on my part only without question, but the two saves Ter Stegen failed to make are saves we see De Gea make on a routine basis and we think nothing of it when he does, but then obsess over a missed pass to his fullbacks. We want perfect saves AND perfect passing, but in the grand scheme of things a missed pass to Shaw or Dalot is of vastly less consequence than the kind of saves De Gea makes on a regular basis that Ter Stegen was unable to make.
De Gea saves a lot. But I feel a goalkeeper who can beat a press with a pass can have a net +1 for wins. If we can be an unflustered back line against any team, then we automatically step up. We have Case for maybe 3 more years. He covers up for the midfield physical battle involved in the long balls De Gea does when the CBs are marked. But we need someone who can find fullbacks with ease. We need a Raya. Maybe not for next season but the one after. After we’ve fixed the striker problem, the extra DM problem and the extra RW problem.
The whole great shot stopper thing has been done to death at this stage. He makes some great saves like the one against Leicester but also lets in shit goals like the similar back post header vs Barca. Most of his great saves and ones most keepers make regularly but don't do it for show.
The idea that DDG can only be replaced by some mega money signing is a load of bollocks. VDS came from Fulham for shag all and Schmeichel came from Brondby. Plenty of keepers out there capable of doing it. It's all about finding the right one that suits the team style.
I'll be clear here, even for all his saves, DDG with all his other flaws is holding this team back. It's clear as day and anyone who understands the role of a keeper will realise that you cannot just be a good shot stopper you have be good at that and be able to do everything else to a high standard, especially in a top team. Passing through the lines and beating the press is a key skill Utd need in a keeper, he's never going to have it. As soon as he's replaced by a more rounded keeper who can do that, you'll see for yourself.
This is factually incorrect. Especially the bolded.
Nah this isn't true.
I don’t understand the argument that he should be replaced because he can’t pass out like some of the modern keepers. Surely the fact he stops goals that most other keepers could only dream about on a regular basis negates him not being able to start a possible offensive move. Saving a certain goal is equal to scoring one.
Literally nobody has ever made that argument as the only reason he should be replaced.
I’m probably not clued up on all the reasons why fans want him replaced. Surely a goalie who makes saves and stops goals which equals a goal scored is pretty valuable. Get another keeper in who does everything else well but lets in a goal extra or more a game can’t be a better option.
Like to see Utd make a punt for Eduard Mendy. Seems new contract negotiations aren’t going too well.
Chelsea won’t want him to go, but at least it could unsettle the player.
Chelsea won’t want him to go, but at least it could unsettle the player.
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No goalkeeper in the league "lets in a goal extra or more a game" though. Even the stats used to defend him on the last page of 2 showed that last season, while his overall shot stopping was the best of the top 6 goalkeepers, his overall impact to the team was the worst of those 6 goalkeepers. There is considerably more to goalkeeping than saving shots, that's nothing to do with being a "modern" goalkeeper, that's been the way of it for 30 year or more at this stage.
I can’t see any other keepers making those saves De Gea did in the last few matches. Stats are one thing but who else would have made those saves? A keepers main job is preventing goals and there is nobody better than De Gea.
You need to watch more goalkeepers then. That's not taking anything away from the stops because you've got to make them but there are goalkeepers stopping the types of efforts he's stopped over the past few weeks all over the league. They might need always need to make them look so flashy but they are making them. What are we looking at, the two against Leicester?
It’s not possible to say if other keepers would have made the saves and maybe they look flashy because they are. I’m not a Utd fan although I do have a soft spot because of my dad so I don’t really have a dog in the fight. But I can say from watching you and De Gea that he makes saves I can’t see other keepers making. You can’t deny the guy is extraordinary at shot stopping. With his apparent lack of other skills he wouldn’t be regarded so highly if he wasn’t one of the best if not the best at shot stopping which is surely the most important trait of a goalkeeper.
Who's he highly regarded by exactly? Not one club wants to sign him and he's available on a free at the end of the season. I've got mates who are STH at several different PL clubs of varying standing in the league and asked the question in our group chat the other day if they'd swap goalkeepers and not one of them said they would take him over their teams goalkeepers & most of the reasons given were similar to those that have been outlined multiple times in this thread and have been backed up the statistics, regardless of whether they're being used to criticise him or defend him. I generally only find it's United fans that rate him nowadays. Like I said, which saves are you trying to tell me no other goalkeeper is making?
It’s my birthday, I’ve been drinking. I haven’t got the energy to look back on the last few games and point out exact saves to make my point if I’m honest. Maybe I’m completely wrong but watching him lately and the saves he’s made I rate him and honestly don’t believe other keepers would have made some of those saves. Like I said maybe I’m wrong.
you should have opened with that, have a good night pal. Look the reality is compared to times gone by he is playing pretty well and making an effort do things I've been critical of him for not doing such as sweeping properly and dealing with crosses etc; let's hope he has a top game and keeps a clean sheet on Sunday (or better still, has absolutely nothing to do!).Are you off to Cardiff in the morning?
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Yes wouldn’t miss Cardiff away. I’m 42 today so remember the days when going to away games against Cardiff you were taking your life into your hands. People underestimate the rivalry between Bristol city and Cardiff being so close over the bridge. We would get more trouble than Rovers away! Anyway to keep on track I hope De Gea has the game of his life on Sunday and you demolish those scousers. They need to be put in their place!
Are you off to Cardiff in the morning?
Yeah I've heard a few stories of years gone by. All the best tomorrow, let's hope it's a good weekend for both sides!
You're not completely wrong buddy. David De Gea could have a game where he saves six pens, makes twelve impossible stops and sprouts an extra arm to tip another around the post and that poster would still argue he's had an average game because his short pass success percentage dipped below 99%.
Thats from November and as usual you have people asking what happens if you remove x game from the stats etc. City and Brentford were outliers in overall poor team perfoemance. But even your stats god JH says it himself in those tweets.
Where as those other data models including Opta put him way below average on sweeping and claiming crosses. And the passing model article in the other link I posted has him in much the same position.
In PL terms he's an average shot stopper, below or around average at everything else. Yet, some people still claim he's the best in the world at certain things and that he doesn't need to be replaced.
I don't know how many times I can say it
His shot stopping this year hasn't been on the whole outstanding but as recently as last year it was. I'm sure up to date stats for this season would show him as well above average. We'll see.
He's been improving on his weaker areas and that's reflected in the fact that back in November his sweeping and distribution was above PL average.
Overall over the past 2 seasons he has 1 player in the league that is clearly better and there's really nothing between the rest. This is due to De Gea's superior shot stopping and their superior shot prevention.
These are true to the eye and are shown in the stats. How a Man Utd fan can go out of his way to portray him as an average shot stopper is truly baffling.
Since November he's conceded like 20 goals in 30 games so he's definitely had a return to shot stopping form
I feel I must be watching another game. Every time I watch you guys De Gea stops goals that I can’t see anybody else making. Top class saves that are worth the same as scoring a goal.
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