Has to be in a talk about United legends in the future.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 58
- Clean sheets
- 25
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 2
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) look forward to a new life under Ruben Amorim. What system will we be playing? What players will impress? and how will it all go? We also say goodbye to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and review United's 3-0 win at home against Leicester City.
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His distribution was perfectly fine.
This is because everyone is just celebrating, while you're trying to start another argument.
I think goalkeeper job is ungrateful in a way that when the defense plays well, goalkeeper doesn't get a lot of chances to show himself. Final vs Newcastle was a game like that - outfield players (especially back 4+Casemiro) did tremendous job to limit Newcastle to 2 shots on target (one of which was unintended lob).
De Gea was solid. Did what he had to do, also became a legend in the meantime while getting another trophy. But that's hardly a performance anyone will be talking about, apart from his biggest fans I guess. Nothing wrong with that, it's just probably more people are now in Casemiro/Wan Bissaka/Martinez/Shaw/Varane threads and De Gea doesn't get much attention, as he was in their shadow yesterday. And that's how it should be.
BTW final vs Newcastle (2 shots on target from Newcastle I repeat) shows that maybe, if you play well defensively as a team, ball-playing and catching crosses abilities are actually quite important. I like to think we will become even more of a solid defensively team, limiting opposition chances to score.
De Gea’s passing isn’t perfect but I think he has definitely improved this year.
Comes outs and punches some corners and crosses too.
Ten Hag has improved him too.
Comes outs and punches some corners and crosses too.
Ten Hag has improved him too.
What era?
De Gea is just not that great. He used to be, for a few seasons, but for the majority of his career he has been average (for a top club level) at best.
(the above are career stats)
The only thing he has going on for him is longevity. And he is not the worst out of those six in saves percentage. And that's it.
Thought his best moment yesterday was cutting out that Trippier cross when he was "offside" (think VAR might have got involved if it had gone in) ... really great positioning and very proactive on that one.
By the end of the season he'll be the goalkeeper who has played the most for us in the history of our club and be 7th for overall appearances. He was our standout player in an otherwise pretty abysmal decade for us. With five TOTY apperances within six seasons, peak De Gea was one of the best goalkeepers on the planet and one of the best goalkeepers in PL history. I don't think any player was our POTY more often than De Gea? All of that already makes him a United legend as far as I'm concerned.
People just need to separate that from current De Gea, who while better than he has been in some recent seasons has still declined quite a way from that peak. Even as top level football has moved in a direction that doesn't suit his skillset.
But correctly highlighting that now shouldn't have any bearing on the esteem he'll be held in when he's gone. All players need to be replaced at some point, it isn't damning of the player.
Agree completely.
I'm usually critical of Dave but he had some nice bits of proactive play today sweeping out from the back. Good keeping at cutting out the Trippier offside cross and a decent puch from his six yard box as well (although he flopped a bit at one). It's nice to see he's improving on these aspects.
His kicking was still a bit shite though.
His kicking was still a bit shite though.
This post should be pinned to the thread.
Amazing achievement from a United legend
Imagine how many clean sheets he'd have in a good era for the club? It makes his achievement all the more amazing.
What era?
De Gea is just not that great. He used to be, for a few seasons, but for the majority of his career he has been average (for a top club level) at best.
(the above are career stats)
The only thing he has going on for him is longevity. And he is not the worst out of those six in saves percentage. And that's it.
Comparing GKs with successful and winning teams ahead of him is just irresponsible don't you think?
Oblak is not much more successful than De Gea. He has 1 league title, 1 Europa League title and 1 Champions League final.
Give me 5 keepers to compare to De Gea and let's see if the results are very different.
Ten Hag seems to value DDG more than most here.
He mentioned him in the same breath as Varane and Casemiro when talking about experience in big games and will to win.
He mentioned him in the same breath as Varane and Casemiro when talking about experience in big games and will to win.
But Atletico is consistently finishing in CL places and performed really well in CL. Also their manager is famous defensively.
Well compare him with Chelsea keepers, Tottenham, and Arsenal. That was our level for the last 10 years (the whole defense unit).
I'll ignore the first bit, as it is a longer argument.
Here's the comparison with Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal keepers + Unai Simon:
Average at clean sheets and saves percentage. And again his longevity is obviously helping him. Only Mendy is ahead from the younger keepers.
Here's a deeper look into the stats:
Launched (40 yards or more) balls are De Gea's default way of playing the ball out and he is really not good at it.
Notice also the penultimate column (#OPA/90 = Number of actions outside of penalty area per 90 minute). De Gea is dead last, by a distance. This is the 'sweeper-keeper' metric.
Notice also the Stp% one. This is Crosses Stopped Percentage. Again, dead last, by a country mile.
I've highlighted medium distance passes (15-30 yards) as those are the diagonals towards fullbacks which are an absolute must for modern goalkeepers.
So, what is the summary?
De Gea is average at shot stopping. He is quite poor in long balls. He is very poor at medium distance balls. He is incredibly poor at sweeping and stopping crosses.
And he is the highest paid goalkeeper in the world.
Do you see where the problem is?
Yet again...football is not played on spreadsheets. If you can't see that ddg remains a decent keeper and has been one of our best players for several seasons in the past then I don't know what to say to you beyond please watch the games as opposed to cherry picking stats that suit your narrative.I'll ignore the first bit, as it is a longer argument.
Here's the comparison with Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal keepers + Unai Simon:
Average at clean sheets and saves percentage. And again his longevity is obviously helping him. Only Mendy is ahead from the younger keepers.
Here's a deeper look into the stats:
Launched (40 yards or more) balls are De Gea's default way of playing the ball out and he is really not good at it.
Notice also the penultimate column (#OPA/90 = Number of actions outside of penalty area per 90 minute). De Gea is dead last, by a distance. This is the 'sweeper-keeper' metric.
Notice also the Stp% one. This is Crosses Stopped Percentage. Again, dead last, by a country mile.
I've highlighted medium distance passes (15-30 yards) as those are the diagonals towards fullbacks which are an absolute must for modern goalkeepers.
So, what is the summary?
De Gea is average at shot stopping. He is quite poor in long balls. He is very poor at medium distance balls. He is incredibly poor at sweeping and stopping crosses.
And he is the highest paid goalkeeper in the world.
Do you see where the problem is?
First of all, I watch every single game and it is painfully obvious that De Gea is a relic of the past. He is a pure shot-stopper, and sadly, an average one at the moment. He is just not a modern goalkeeper and as a result, no longer a top goalkeeper.
As for your accusation that I've cherrypicked stats, why don't you try to cherry pick some stats that show De Gea as a top goalkeeper?
Aye, those personality factors (how they are in the dressing room, how they handle the pressure of the spotlight, etc.) are aspects we can't really assess from the outside.
And the reality is that a lot of the goalkeepers at smaller teams who seem to offer more than De Gea would fail to make the step up on those grounds. After all, we've seen goalkeepers who were good enough to have long PL careers fail to cut it here before.
But not all. Among the many players who have better metrics than De Gea or are a better fit stylistically there will be some who also have the right character to make the step up. As with anything else it's just about the club identifying the right one. And deciding where that upgrade fits among our priorities.
Does that include the flappy punch near the end where the defender blocked the resulting shot in front of him?
He didn't have a whole pile to do yesterday, did what he had to and had a relatively easy game. Can't really have any complaints about his performance overall.
Leaving stats aside, he has been average this season, was better last season, was pretty awful in the error-riddled seasons before that and was last genuinely brilliant in the 17/18 season, which was quite a while ago.
Maybe that does work out as "decent" all told. I'd currently describe him as an average PL goalkeeper. But we're a side who will be looking to push on and win PLs/CLs next season. "Decent" players who are currently nailed on in our starting eleven should be in line to be replaced at this point.
Yep, that is something that he often doesn't do so it really stood out. There was also one very good driven pass out to the left that looked more like an Ederson pass.
From memory there was one punch where he didn't get much distance and a few poor passes, but otherwise he had a good solid match.
Im starting to think that we might regress without him.
Having an absolute wall of a goalkeeper who can pull off the other aspects to a decent standard will be more important and felt in a team than a goalkeeper who passes the ball but doesn’t make world class saves after world class saves.
Having an absolute wall of a goalkeeper who can pull off the other aspects to a decent standard will be more important and felt in a team than a goalkeeper who passes the ball but doesn’t make world class saves after world class saves.
Yet best goalkeepers tend to top those metrics. Even De Gea best seasons were reflected in stats. That means it's not actually something completely irrelevant as you're trying it to make.
If De Gea is always on the bottom in some parameters, that means he's poor at it. See going for crosses, sweeping actions, passing. I don't see how "eye test" can tell you something different.
The only point to argue is how good he is at making saves on current form. Right now he's pretty good at it, absolutely no problem with that. This is reflected in good stats as well actually (for particular games).
Therefore, if he's been really good in recent games at stopping shots, and that is reflected in stats, why not trust those stats over the course of the season? And they show he's close to average on shot stopping ability. I know some people will double down on him being "the only goalkeeper in the world who can make those saves", but this isn't true.
Stats will rarely give you an answer who is a better goalkeeper - UNLESS there are clear weaknesses / strengths. In De Gea case, there are clear weaknesses. As for strengths, those claiming his incredible shot stopping ability should also be able to prove it easily. So far this doesn't seem to be case over the course of the season. BUT if he continues on current level (last few games), he might get into top 5 shot stoppers in the league and I wish him so.
This is exactly what he is. A decent keeper in a team that has some world class and some very good footballers. So replacing him becomes one of the top priorities.
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He's made some great saves this season that has kept us in games and been the difference between winning and losing/drawing.
I don't see it as a priority at all to replace him. I'd bring in a striker and two midfielders before we even think about the goalkeeper, and even then it might not be a good idea. He is also a senior member of the squad, and the only player to have won a Premier League title with us (no, I'm not counting Phil Jones).
I don't see it as a priority at all to replace him. I'd bring in a striker and two midfielders before we even think about the goalkeeper, and even then it might not be a good idea. He is also a senior member of the squad, and the only player to have won a Premier League title with us (no, I'm not counting Phil Jones).
But it was a cross punched still - earlier he almost never did it. And this game he made 2 (if not 3) punches in one match, that is significant progress.
He comes across as a bit depressed these days, I wonder if the stick he gets from his own fans along with the seeming acknowledgement within club that he isn't quite what we need has soured things for him a bit.
Can anyhone spot Dot Cotton in that photo?
Because i have better things to do than to scour football stats websites to win an internet argument.
The hate toward De Gea here is remarkable.
I think it's widely accepted that De Gea had 3 bad years 2018-2021(I wanted him gone in this period), followed by a return to some form these past 2 years. You would expect the stats to back that up, right?
De Gea's PsxG/90 in the Premier League over those seasons
18-19 -0.03
19-20 -0.01
20-21 -0.01
21-22 +0.03
22-23 -0.05
This is the clearest indictment of this stat. It suggests that this season is his worst of the last 5. Even his biggest critics wouldn't agree with that. I'm sorry the model is deeply and clearly flawed.
It's because people's brains forget things whereas stats include them. There's been a fair few massive mistakes, some of the biggest of his career this season. The brentford goal conceded where he let a random shot from range slip through his hands, and the goal vs Everton where he stumbled on the post to name 2. He's having an OK season if you take out some outliers, but running stats don't take out the outliers nor should they. So when you include them... Yeah. You get what he has this season.
Simple PsxG models are flawed yes. John Harrison on twitter is great for analyzing goalkeepers, though he hasn't updated his goalkeeper table since the world Cup. But he assigns a value for all of the factors of a goalkeepers game and has a very good system of ranking goalkeepers. This from November on de Gea:
And this from last season:
And comparing to the other top goalkeepers last season:
Thanks for that. I'll read up on it when I get a chance and it's good to have a better model than psxG.
By first glance he says that De Gea is an awesome shot stopper but isn't nearly proactive enough.
I'm told often on here that he's an average shot stopper.
Well the first tweet shows he's basically been an average shot stopper this season, albeit that was from the world Cup so it's probably improved since.
Don't think you'll have many saying he is a poor shot stopper, but he is essentially like a poacher striker, or like Ronaldo last season. Sure he scored goals, but did nothing else, so when the goals dried up, what was left? With De Gea, he was an elite shot stopper, but now that it's regressed to something close to average, what does he have in his all round game to make him worth it? That's the overall point people make.
Anyway, he was class yesterday and has improved on the whole. I don't think he should stay past the summer, but i love the guy for what he's given us and it's just not the time to complain about him right now. Depends on a lot of factors in the summer.
I think average is unfair; inconsistent is probably more reasonable as he will make unbelievable saves but then in another game let in goals that you'd expect a goalkeeper to stop. I see why people get to the "average" as a word because in terms of the stats it tends to even out more often than not and he looks pretty "average" statistically but it's not something I would agree with personally because it's more inconsistency than simply being average.
Not on board with any criticism of him yesterday though, there may have been a couple of minor incidents (the messed up punch for example but in reality he's doing things outside of his comfort zone so I wouldn't expect him to suddenly deal with things brilliantly every time) but the reality is I saw a goalkeeper doing a lot of things I've been criticising him for not doing in terms of dealing with crosses, sweeping behind the defence and taking the sting out of the game when required. Long may it continue. We should all be saying well done Dave and congratulating him on a great record.
He didn’t grab any contested crosses.
He punched a few away, but he needs to work on his punching technique.
You can tell he’s been working on his weaknesses so fair play to the lad. He has swept and punched more crosses in the last few games than he has in years.
Brilliant post. Sums up my thoughts.
I do think he's been making the effort on his weaknesses and, like I've said before, I don't weight them as much as saving shots.
I think he's had a 7 on 10 season so far but I'll see what this John Harrison has to say on the matter.
John Harrison
"His sweeping and passing are much improved and are now above the Premier League average level"
Whaaaaaaaat!
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