Exactly, stats without context are as much use as a chocolate teapot
1
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 58
- Clean sheets
- 25
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 2
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) look forward to a new life under Ruben Amorim. What system will we be playing? What players will impress? and how will it all go? We also say goodbye to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and review United's 3-0 win at home against Leicester City.
- Status
They used to go on about Smalling's passing stats but that guy only used to play sideways and backwards passes to other players within a three metre radius, so of course his pass completions were going to be through the roof. They used to make allowances for his countless deficiencies because 'he was good in the air'.
But no, of course De Gea has to be perfect at everything. It's a joke!
Nah, s'ok, we're good. Still in 4 comps and playing a final tomorrow...and De Gea has played his part.
Nothing to see here...move along!
Says who?
I'm sorry, is weirdo a term of affection? It was an insult and unnecessary.
I never said they were the only 2 options. I'm pointing out Ederson's error on Wednesday to show the futility of stats. Especially when people criticise De Gea for not coming for crosses, then one of the best at that gives away a goal coming for a cross.
It wasn’t unnecessary at all, you’re a proper weirdo for the reasons I gave in my last post. You’ve got nothing sensible to add to any debate on De Gea, you think he’s great and anyone who doesn’t, you take the piss out of regardless of whether they offer statistics to verify their view or their own experiences at varying levels of the game. You don’t have the first clue & give the impression of somebody who has never played a game of football in his life.
You have continually referred back to Ederson and were doing it long before Wednesday. To really dumb it down to a level you may understand, it is better to feck up on coming for a cross once a season but stop 20+ free headers on goal from inside the six yard box a season by catching the cross than catch none and allow 20+ free headers from inside the six yard box.
Well aware. I’ll be stood behind our man Dave as I always am. I trust you & his other top rimmers will be?
Okay the rest of your post.
The magnificent 7 was just me trying to enter a bit of lightheartedness into proceedings. I was referring to yourself and the others regulars who without fail come on to parrot the same things over and over again.
My breakdown of what's important comes from me. It's my opinion on what makes a keeper important. I think saving shots is 80% of what a keeper does. I know the magnificent 7 feel it's an even split with claiming crosses, sweeping, passing to your full back, shouting at your defenders etc, but I weight it significantly higher.
Dumb, Proper weirdo, nothing sensible.
Personal attacks now.
You are definitely the head of the magnificent 7.
Certainly the most rabid.
As I said, you have nothing to add, as such you can’t debate cos you don’t have a clue and you’ve proved my point. Bad weirdo get back in the bin.
Am I part of the magnificent 7? I always wanted to be part of an exclusive club. I'm imagining regular catch ups in a secret tree house where we discuss De Gea's inability to command his defence, deal with crosses, lack of sweeping, average distribution and general lack of bravery.
Good lad!
Your membership is pending Geesey
Shot stopping is more important then all of them put together
Guys living in 1960 ffs
It's the no remember the geeses club. We're allowed one remember the geese.
Regarding the bold, that's fair. I'd probably pad out my posts with nonsense if I had nothing constructive to say too.
Saving shots is important. His save percentage has him not even top five in the league. So fair play if you're putting weight on something where he's hardly best in class this season
Lovely stuff. You'll find I made lots of points today if you read my posts and I didn't insult anyone.
Played football at varying levels of the game btw up to semi professional level.
If that’s true then what position? I cannot fathom how anyone who’s played football at any level thinking 80% of goalkeeping is saving shots. 80% is closer to covering everything other than shot stopping, I said before, that’s why goalkeepers spend the vast majority of their time training as part of the team rather than just having shots aimed at him by the coaching staff. Surely you must have wondered why the goalkeeper was training with you rather than stopping shots?!
Glad to hear you’ve been making points today, makes a solid change because you’ve been taking the piss out of reasoned debate in this thread for weeks & now you’re playing the Scouser because I’ve called you a weirdo
It seems again you are only using stats.
Parroting the same thing over and over isn't constructive either.
Last time. Watch the game. If we concede ask yourself If he should've saved it. Go from there.
I played across the midfield if you must know. I'm assuming you were a goalie and dream that Teny will pick you out of the crowd. Do you keep the gloves in your pocket?If that’s true then what position? I cannot fathom how anyone who’s played football at any level thinking 80% of goalkeeping is saving shots. 80% is closer to covering everything other than shot stopping, I said before, that’s why goalkeepers spend the vast majority of their time training as part of the team rather than just having shots aimed at him by the coaching staff. Surely you must have wondered why the goalkeeper was training with you rather than stopping shots?!
Glad to hear you’ve been making points today, makes a solid change because you’ve been taking the piss out of reasoned debate in this thread for weeks & now you’re playing the Scouser because I’ve called you a weirdo
I'm sorry my posts aren't of a sufficient standard. I don't have the time usually. Oh well. Must try better.
You don’t have time yet you’re in here every 5 minutes bemoaning people using stats to back their view.
Funnily enough no I don’t because I’m not 9 years old.
Well I looked at his stats which basically confirmed what I already know.
The stats do not have enough data points to make conclusive comparisons between goalkeepers.
For example, save percentages for different competitions can be wildly different. David‘s save percentage in Europa League is over 80%. Other keepers have discrepancies like that that are way bigger.
Ederson‘s saving percentage in PL is 62.5%.
Goalkeepers especially have to be evaluated by eye. The eye test tells me David makes few mistakes, has great concentration and saves stuff that almost no one else does.
Also, that he passes better than you lot make out.
The stats do not have enough data points to make conclusive comparisons between goalkeepers.
For example, save percentages for different competitions can be wildly different. David‘s save percentage in Europa League is over 80%. Other keepers have discrepancies like that that are way bigger.
Ederson‘s saving percentage in PL is 62.5%.
Goalkeepers especially have to be evaluated by eye. The eye test tells me David makes few mistakes, has great concentration and saves stuff that almost no one else does.
Also, that he passes better than you lot make out.
Last edited:
Wow , condescending to people here, because you have no comeback. I didn't expect that, at all. What a surprise...
Anyway it's cup final day so I'm hoping DDG lifts the trophy and we all celebrate that today
Please don’t tell me you’re looking at save percentage as any kind of relevant statistic. Jesus.
Exactly my point.
Here here
DDG is the best keeper for me. I hope we win in the final vs Newcastle.
So what is the relevant statistic for a goalkeeper?
There are loads which have been argued to death in this thread, surely you’re aware of them. Save percentage looks at all shots faced regardless of whether they’re from 2 yards or 40 yards which is why it’s problematic whereas PSxG takes into account the quality of those opportunities faced, it’s not perfect and certainly isn’t on a game by game basis but over a run of fixtures or an entire season it’s actually very accurate. You’ve also got the cross percentages & sweeps per game available publicly which are equally relevant depending on what you’re looking for.
I’d generally watch the goalkeepers first before looking at their numbers to see if the numbers back up the view because it’s surprising how often the commonly held view (De Gea being the best shot stopper in the league, Raya being poor on crosses, Martinez being very highly rated, Nick Pope being a goal-line keeper in his Burnley days etc) are just plainly wrong.
Truth is it’s all about creative coaching. Obviously that ship has already sailed for DeGea, but a younger more impressionable keeper might respond differently for example, why not train them to juggle, sounds ridiculous but these sort things help with dexterity and spacial awareness, just as I would insist on outfield players learning martial arts to help study the use of space and breathing techniques.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the criticisms only come from looking at stats. In reality there's two groups of people who are coming to a conclusion by using their eyes, and it just so happens that the stats only agree with one of them.
There are also people saying that stats don't show reality. It just so happens that during the periods that everyone agrees he was doing very well, the stats also showed he was doing very well. If stats weren't based on reality, wouldn't they be wrong at that time too?
People criticising him: De Gea was a great shot stopper in 17/18 and the first half of 21/22, but otherwise has been fairly average for years.
People defending him: De Gea has always been a great shot stopper.
Stats: De Gea was a great shot stopper in 17/18 and the first half of 21/22, but otherwise has been fairly average for years.
Stats certainly aren't perfect (for instance I do think he's been a bit better than what they are showing this season) and shouldn't be used in small samples, but you normally get an accurate trend over a decent period of time.
The other mistake that you and others seem to be making is understanding what is meant by average in that regard. He absolutely can still make some some great saves (although people tend to go overboard with how many), but he has also let in goals that you would expect the goalkeeper to stop. Those two things tend to cancel each other out, therefore the 'average shot stopping'. That's what has tended to happen over most of the last few years. He might make seven or eight amazing saves over the course of the season that you wouldn't expect a keeper to make, but he also concedes seven or eight that he really should be stopping.
There are some stats that show you the profile of the player. For example a quick glance shows you De Gea is a goal-line shot stopper. What he is, the "eye test" confirms that.
Now if you want to compare shot-stopping ability, there is a very good metric for that. PSxG takes into account from where the shot was taken an it's quality. This is why for example Olise free kick goal is valued at xG=0,04 BUT because that was very well executed shot it's PSxG=0,4 (10x xG).
Now, analysing single instance makes no sense, since it's based on a model. Models are built to give you an overview - over time it's a pretty good metric to compare goalkeepers, but also see trends for same players, how is the variation etc. It's not perfect but the best that we have. Nobody compares % of shots saved these days.
Interesting that De Gea is ranked in the middle of the pack in EPL on that metric. Personally I think he's still good at it. Reliable I'd say. But...
You could probably make the case De Gea is top 5-7 shot stopper in the league (if you take away some extreme score lines, although I see no reason to).
Then if you look at the breakdown you presented:
- bottom of the list in claiming crosses
- average on sweeper actions
- below average in distribution (that's a bit difficult to assess for me, but I'm astonished how such an experienced goalkeeper can panic so easily)
- probably should add he's 25 percentile on saved penalties, that is quite low
Safe to assume we can all agreed that is a fair assessment of current De Gea?
And if that is the case, De Gea is pretty average keeper overall. Especially considering he is really closer to the average on shot stopping ability than say top20% (over the curse of the season).
He's been really good lately, but again you have to ignore all other aspects of being a good goalkeeper to call him anything special.
Important to mention that he had a few good games recently, but this is FORM and a bit of luck. There probably are some people who would rather stay with Dr Gea than get Ter Stegen because of two games vs Barca, but I'm talking about him in general this season and if he's worth sticking to in the next year or so.
Last edited:
Very good post.
I would say he's in the pack when it comes to shot stopping this season, Alisson out in front but what makes me want to stick with him is
1. He's doing it at Manchester United which I think means more. I think some people can't hack it in goal for Man United and their figures would instantly fall off a cliff here. Their stats definitely won't improve.
2. He has been top of the psXg many many times before, as recently as last year
And as I weight shot stopping as by far and away the most important part of goalkeeping, I wouldn't dream of replacing him.
Where are you seeing this?
Wasn't he top of the charts halfway through last season?
I get what you're saying, but there are only 3 scenarios where I see us not getting a new GK:
1. We don't have the money to spend for a top GK and we can only afford budget version. This is looking increasingly likely with each week passing under Glazers regime.
2. We have money but we have an opportunity to sign top CF, top CM and maybe top CB (for future as Varane needs to be managed carefully). In that case I'm OK to keep De Gea for another season, because we will get our defensive line sorted for a few seasons. I don't know how likely that is. I trust ETH on this one.
3. There are no GKs who are ready to step up. We can clearly see some good goalkeepers in EPL now, but I am not in the position to tell of they are capable if making it on a bigger stage. Mind you De Gea wasn't so convincing when he joined either, and since we're building for the future, I don't see this scenario as very likely.
Also another thing to consider is that De Gea game is heavily dependent on athletism, since he does a lot of that "effective saves". Therefore, we can't really expect him to keep doing that for another 2,3 years. That means we're taking a risk either way
In the end I think it'll all depend on the funds we have available, as I think the pulling power United will have in the summer will be as strong as ever.
Last edited:
He was but then he fell off in the second half of the season. Where he's finished in recent seasons:
22/23 (so far): 12th
21/22: 3rd
20/21: 12th
19/20: 11th
18/19: 9th
17/18: 1st
Tbh considering what happened to us second half of previous season, it's not far fetched to say he was top tier shot stopper last season.
17/18 season he was top and that's reflected by both "eye test" and filthy stats. Although it's interesting to see if he actually does better in seasons where he has a lot of shots to save, I think that was the case last season and 17/18 as well (I may be wrong here).
He was, he didn't finish top of the charts which considered how far ahead he was at one point is somewhat concerning. But overall he had an above average season last season if your just counting his shot stopping, he was awful at everything else.
Noone disputes that De Gea is a capable shot stopper, occansionaly brilliant. And he does make some remarkable saves he really does not as many as some would have you believe. But his positioning, agility and reflexes are all world class. However he is let down massively because he is terrified of getting hurt, he actively avoids any kind of physical contact weather that be with opposition players, his own teamates or the goal posts.
Whenever there is a possibility of physical contact happening he tends to take his eye of the ball (quite literally) and worries more about avoiding the physical contact, it's where alot of his soft goals against tend to come from.
Because of this massive flaw his shot stopping comes down a level. So although he does make some very good, sometimes remarkable saves he also lets in quite alot of soft ones normally where physical contact with something or someone could be required to make the save.
Only an idiot would consider passing accuracy as the sole stat to reflect a good passer.
- Status