[Idxomer]

I have seen a dozen of your messages here but I can hardly see you back up your defence of De Gea with any stats (which you think are trash) or any proper arguments apart from the rhetorical that "how can you be sure that an "average PL GK" like Raya/Sa & co. will do better than De Gea?", which no one can firmly answer since no one has a crystal ball to predict the future, but that "fear of unknown" mentality is the reason why Man Utd has been reluctant to make necessary changes in recent years and fallen behind so much.

Dean Henderson is a very average goalkeeper at PL's standard but we conceded less goals per game with him in the goal in 20-21 (12 goals conceded in 13 games) than when we had De Gea in the same season (32 goals conceded in 26 games). Noting you may say Henderson faced lesser opponents, may I reply with the fact that the average end-of-season league position of opponents faced by Henderson was 10.62 and that faced by De Gea was 10.77 in 20-21.

Sergio Romero has never been considered an elite goalkeeper, but during his time for Man Utd, Romero conceded just 9 goals in his 23 appearances for Man Utd in the Europa League.

You may reply "of course, you face random John Doe teams in Europa League!"

Unfortunately, De Gea has conceded 25 goals in his 22 appearances for Man Utd in the Europa League.

It is the real delusion if one thinks that an "average PL GK" is incapable of withstanding the weight of the shirt of United when we have 2 real life examples that it isn't really the case. To the contrary, De Gea is kinda bad at withstanding pressure and most of his blunders are in big games or big tournaments like World Cup, Champions League knock out, Europa League final or FA Cup Semi-final. De Gea has been a great servant for us and he kept bailing us out in the sour period of 2014-2018, but let's call a spade a spade, De Gea has now regressed to be just another "random average" PL GK and we should replace him, right in this summer, if we are anything close to a serious club.

Good post. De Gea isn't some big character like Schmeichel, he has no leadership qualities at all on the pitch and his effect on our defenders has never been positive even at his best. He has basically been the Maguire of goalkeepers for the last 5 years but instead with a good reputation.

United have been scared of moving squad players and other "important" players for the fear of the unknown for years and it has never worked well for the team. Arsenal moved two goalkeepers better than De Gea in the last year and a half with other big-name players. In return, they started doing better because they weren't afraid of taking big decisions to improve the squad.

 

[Oranges038]

Dubravka was average and it was a disaster.
Henderson I just dont want at the club. He is a toxic cnut like Ronaldo and should never play for us again.

Could we upgrade De Gea? Absolutely. But it needs to be the right player.
Diogo Costa looked good until we saw him on the big stage at the world cup where he crumbled like a freshly baked cookie.
Raya and Sanchez are both premier league proven and I expect both would be a upgrade. Sanchez even more so given some of the fantastic saves he has made this season. He seems to have some of Dave's ability to save "unsavable" shots, while at the same time being better at pretty much every other aspect. He would be my personal favourite if we go for a premier league proven keeper.

Young talent I had hoped we would be in for a Vandevoordt but alas Red Bull already have their claws in him, and he is also unproved on the big stage.

Bit of a weird timing in terms of when transfer to RB will go through. But the kid looks like he's got all the tools to be a top keeper.

 

[Longshanks]

I disagree. Ronaldo nowadays is past it winger turned to striker, who couldn't even put away sitters.


That's proper delusion right here, thinking and average Joe from the Premier League will come at Manchester United and perform like it's a walk in the park. And I am not sure what half fit Martial has brought into the team. A half fit Martial was hooked at half time against City after being even worse than Antony, try a different point next time.

And to point out just the obvious, DDG is still facing much more shots compared to the GKs of Arsenal and City. Or in number Ederson has had 49 shots against while DDG has had 78. Are you going to tell me this is all because he does not claim enough high balls or sweeps enough?

And after the half fit Martial was hooked we lost our focal point and any ability to build attacks. City then dominated got the goal and only thanks to very favourable VAR call did we get back into the game. Even the half fit Martial was doing an ok job at holding the ball up and linking play. After he went off noone did it and it showed

Yes of course we concede more shots because of De Gea that's his game less shot prevention=more shot stopping. It's not all down to him of course it's a team game but he certainly dosent don anything of note to actually prevent those shots from happening unlike alot of other GK's who actively sweep, actively command there area and actively push the defesive line higher and go higher themselves continuosly pushing it up. De Gea does none of that. It's something the average Dean Henderson did well for us and the statistics back it up, much higher defence line on average with Dean Henderson in nets and much better defensive stats aswell. It's something Nick Pope is doing very well for Newcastle currently, it's something's David Raya and Roberto Sanchez do well for Brighton and Brentford aswell.

I would suggest maybe watch some Newcastle, Brentford and Brighton games and watch often they actively sweep and claim high balls stopping attacks before they get dangerous launching dangerous attacks of there own. Then come back and watch De Gea, the difference is honestly mind boggling.

 

[Kostov]

And after the half fit Martial was hooked we lost our focal point and any ability to build attacks. City then dominated got the goal and only thanks to very favourable VAR call did we get back into the game. Even the half fit Martial was doing an ok job at holding the ball up and linking play. After he went off noone did it and it showed

We were getting outplayed even with him in the team, albeit I agree it got even worse without him. And I am not sure how from playing with an actual striker to playing without one, is some how related to DDG and whether an actual GK is being replace with another GK?

Yes of course we concede more shots because of De Gea that's his game less shot prevention=more shot stopping. It's not all down to him of course it's a team game but he certainly dosent don anything of note to actually prevent those shots from happening unlike alot of other GK's who actively sweep, actively command there area and actively push the defesive line higher and go higher themselves continuosly pushing it up. De Gea does none of that. It's something the average Dean Henderson did well for us and the statistics back it up, much higher defence line on average with Dean Henderson in nets and much better defensive stats aswell. It's something Nick Pope is doing very well for Newcastle currently, it's something's David Raya and Roberto Sanchez do well for Brighton and Brentford aswell.

I would suggest maybe watch some Newcastle, Brentford and Brighton games and watch often they actively sweep and claim high balls stopping attacks before they get dangerous launching dangerous attacks of there own. Then come back and watch De Gea, the difference is honestly mind boggling.

I am lost now. David Raya has faced 112 shots which is considerably higher than DDG, while Sanchez has 67 that is 11 less than DDG who is on 78. So which one of these fellas actually is the useful in your point? I have actually seen them play have you? Which one commands actively, pushes the defensive line higher, sweeping? The one with 34 more shots on his goal or the one with 11 less?

Pope is on 62 and also has 11 goals conceded in a set up Simeone would be proud of actually, and yet they have scored 1 goal more than us.

 

[Kostov]

You do know using the example of Karius is proving peoples point about an average goalkeeper being a better fit for a team than a goalkeeper not suited to the players in front of him? Karius wasn’t good but he enabled Liverpool to play the high like Klopp wanted to because he started high, swept behind the defenders and looked to deal with crosses into the box.

Well this is the best you can do obviously after Ramsdale.

Mane, Salah and Firmino enabled Liverpool to absolutely bulldoze through defenders. That enabled Klopp to play even a clown at goal and almost winning the biggest trophy in club football. You put that Karius in this team, you still have Antony, Weghorst and Martial waiting for Rashford to come up with some goal out of nowhere. That is the fecking difference some of you actually fail to understand.

 

[JB7]

Pope is on 62 and also has 11 goals conceded in a set up Simeone would be proud of actually, and yet they have scored 1 goal more than us.

Newcastle average the fourth highest line in the division. They can do this because they have a goalkeeper sweeping three times as many balls per 90 minutes than De Gea. United average the third deepest. I'll look forward to your next wildly inaccurate statement in an attempt to defend the indefensible.

Well this is the best you can do obviously after Ramsdale.

Mane, Salah and Firmino enabled Liverpool to absolutely bulldoze through defenders. That enabled Klopp to play even a clown at goal and almost winning the biggest trophy in club football. You put that Karius in this team, you still have Antony, Weghorst and Martial waiting for Rashford to come up with some goal out of nowhere. That is the fecking difference some of you actually fail to understand.

It was literally you that brought Karius up you absolute mentalist. It's not my fault you were incapable of understanding what I said about Ramsdale's kicking and the huge differences between him and De Gea.

As for talking about the difference in players between this United team and that Liverpool team, you are aware in your last post, directly above this, you were comparing the number of shots the Brentford goalkeeper has had to deal with vs De Gea as some kind of triumph for De Gea? Do you not think there might be some differences in quality of players between United and Brentford too?

 

[Kostov]

I have seen a dozen of your messages here but I can hardly see you back up your defence of De Gea with any stats (which you think are trash) or any proper arguments apart from the rhetorical that "how can you be sure that an "average PL GK" like Raya/Sa & co. will do better than De Gea?", which no one can firmly answer since no one has a crystal ball to predict the future, but that "fear of unknown" mentality is the reason why Man Utd has been reluctant to make necessary changes in recent years and fallen behind so much.

Dean Henderson is a very average goalkeeper at PL's standard but we conceded less goals per game with him in the goal in 20-21 (12 goals conceded in 13 games) than when we had De Gea in the same season (32 goals conceded in 26 games). Noting you may say Henderson faced lesser opponents, may I reply with the fact that the average end-of-season league position of opponents faced by Henderson was 10.62 and that faced by De Gea was 11.34 in 20-21.

Sergio Romero has never been considered an elite goalkeeper, but during his time for Man Utd, Romero conceded just 9 goals in his 23 appearances for Man Utd in the Europa League.

You may reply "of course, you face random John Doe teams in Europa League!"

Unfortunately, De Gea has conceded 25 goals in his 22 appearances for Man Utd in the Europa League.

It is the real delusion if one thinks that an "average PL GK" is incapable of withstanding the weight of the shirt of United when we have 2 real life examples that it isn't really the case. To the contrary, De Gea is kinda bad at withstanding pressure and most of his blunders are in big games or big tournaments like World Cup, Champions League knock out, Europa League final or FA Cup Semi-final. De Gea has been a great servant for us and he kept bailing us out in the sour period of 2014-2018, but let's call a spade a spade, De Gea has now regressed to be just another "random average" PL GK and we should replace him, right in this summer, if we are anything close to a serious club.

We have very good example of how difficult is to find a proper GK for this club. Never mind crystal balls and predictions. I am just using common sense, I've seen the stats I realize that DDG will have to go, but I have also seen enough of the likes of Raya/Sa/Sanchez to realize they are not worth it splashing the money when we have players like Fred, McT and Weghorst occupying crucial areas of the team. And yes I do remember Henderson famous tenure and the stats that come out of it, I also remember him not being good enough and shitting the bed, which probably is not written in the stats tables. I was also very eager for Henderson to stake his claim and replace DDG, you can go and find his threads even from the loan spells, I was impressed. But it's one thing to be a GK and Sheffield and Brighton another thing to be a GK here.

And yes DDG has made some blunders, so has Neuer and Allison and most of the GK in history.

 

[padzilla]

We have very good example of how difficult is to find a proper GK for this club. Never mind crystal balls and predictions. I am just using common sense, I've seen the stats I realize that DDG will have to go, but I have also seen enough of the likes of Raya/Sa/Sanchez to realize they are not worth it splashing the money when we have players like Fred, McT and Weghorst occupying crucial areas of the team. And yes I do remember Henderson famous tenure and the stats that come out of it, I also remember him not being good enough and shitting the bed, which probably is not written in the stats tables. I was also very eager for Henderson to stake his claim and replace DDG, you can go and find his threads even from the loan spells, I was impressed. But it's one thing to be a GK and Sheffield and Brighton another thing to be a GK here.

And yes DDG has made some blunders, so has Neuer and Allison and most of the GK in history.

I think Henderson's dreadful performances for us when he got the chance are possibly the main reason we still have DDG starting most games despite the remaining question marks. Henderson actually seemed to shrink in stature in one defeat against Liverpool.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

De Gea can’t catch a high ball, cannot sweep, and is inconsistent with his feet.

All of the above casues nerves in our defence every time there’s a ball in behind. He has to go.

 

[Kostov]

Newcastle average the fourth highest line in the division. They can do this because they have a goalkeeper sweeping three times as many balls per 90 minutes than De Gea. United average the third deepest. I'll look forward to your next wildly inaccurate statement in an attempt to defend the indefensible.

They do that because their manager wants them to do it. Nick Pope was at fecking Burnley last year how high was their defensive line? Was he preventing them from playing expensive high line defense football?

It was literally you that brought Karius up you absolute mentalist. It's not my fault you were incapable of understanding what I said about Ramsdale's kicking and the huge differences between him and De Gea.

Read the entire conversation before jumping to conclusion Einstein. The other poster mentioned how Klopp carefully identified Allison, well yeah he also identified Karius which turned out to be a dud, and despite that his attack carried Liverpool to a CL final. Allison cost Liverpool 70m euros.

As for talking about the difference in players between this United team and that Liverpool team, you are aware in your last post, directly above this, you were comparing the number of shots the Brentford goalkeeper has had to deal with vs De Gea as some kind of triumph for De Gea? Do you not think there might be some differences in quality of players between United and Brentford too?

Do you realize that Brenford are 8th and 9 points behind while we are 11 point behind Arsenal and they have a game in hand? Just for little context maybe?

 

[Oranges038]

You are right, the GK does affect the high line, but so does a capable defense and most of all a functioning midfield who actually controls tempo and the majority of the ball. Against City and Arsenal we were not pinned in our box because of DDG and him not sweeping or commanding the area, we were overrun and outplayed by teams with much better midfield and attack. How was DDG going to affect the game with sweeping and commanding the area when your opposition has 70% possession like we did against City? Or like against Arsenal when your midfield had a pass comp. of 74%.

I perfectly realize that a GK can prevent goals with cross collecting, more authority and organizing, but it's hardly our biggest problem. DDG is not fecking Schmeichel, but who exactly is? And no a regular Joe from the PL will not cut it here. Find me an Allison or Schmeichel like talent I am all about replacing DDG.

Klopp nearly won the CL with Karius at goal, he was having Liverpool play aggressive football with loads of goals and destroying teams by attacking prowess we are light years behind. Bar 2 total howlers by Karius, Klopp would have made him a CL winner. DDG is hardly Karius is he.

Karius is a great example.

Karius just proves that having a keeper who suits the team style is better than having a guy who excels in one area. And even in that one are he excels in he's been distinctly average in PL terms for a long time now.

They do that because their manager wants them to do it. Nick Pope was at fecking Burnley last year how high was their defensive line? Was he preventing them from playing expensive high line defense football?

Despite Burnley playing a deeper line.

Pope was one of the top sweeper keepers in the league last season. And the two before, same in 17/18.

Top of the pile again this season.

 

[JB7]

They do that because their manager wants them to do it. Nick Pope was at fecking Burnley last year how high was their defensive line? Was he preventing them from playing expensive high line defense football?
-
Read the entire conversation before jumping to conclusion Einstein. The other poster mentioned how Klopp carefully identified Allison, well yeah he also identified Karius which turned out to be a dud, and despite that his attack carried Liverpool to a CL final. Allison cost Liverpool 70m euros.
-
Do you realize that Brenford are 8th and 9 points behind while we are 11 point behind Arsenal and they have a game in hand? Just for little context maybe?

I was waiting for you to bring up the classic Burnley myth. They had the sixth highest average line in the league last season. Seventh highest the season before, fourth highest the season before that. They were able to play a high line because they had a proactive goalkeeper behind them dealing with balls in behind regularly.
-
Klopp brought in Karius as a cheap goalkeeper to challenge Mignolet and he got into the team because he was a better fit for how they played than Mignolet. He was never intended to be their long term number one, he was a stop gap at best.
-
Yeah surprisingly I realise where teams are in the league table. They are eighth, we are fourth. Surprisingly the better team gives away less chances on goal, particularly given that United play a possession brand of football whereas Brentford play a pressing brand of football that usually results in them having considerably less possession than their opponents. That doesn't alter the fact that their goalkeeper wipes the floor with ours on every performance metric available, whether it's in terms of opportunity prevention, shot stopping or keeping the ball.

 

[MUFC OK]

Sunday was his worst performance in a long time. Being glued to his line costs us in big games where we are under pressure.

 

[Kostov]

I was waiting for you to bring up the classic Burnley myth. They had the sixth highest average line in the league last season. Seventh highest the season before, fourth highest the season before that. They were able to play a high line because they had a proactive goalkeeper behind them dealing with balls in behind regularly.

That is a fecking shock to me. Who were the other 5 times with higher average line in the league from last season and where were we ranked? I just saw Burnley last year, they conceded less goals than us and also scored 34 goals, which got them relegated. What did this famous high line brought to their way of playing can you please enlighten me? They were obviously "able" to play a high line, they were obviously not able to survive the drop.
-

Klopp brought in Karius as a cheap goalkeeper to challenge Mignolet and he got into the team because he was a better fit for how they played than Mignolet. He was never intended to be their long term number one, he was a stop gap at best.

Klopp brought Karius because he just like some of you here though that premium GKs are easily found and waiting one the block. Turned out they didn't.
-

Yeah surprisingly I realise where teams are in the league table. They are eighth, we are fourth. Surprisingly the better team gives away less chances on goal, particularly given that United play a possession brand of football whereas Brentford play a pressing brand of football that usually results in them having considerably less possession than their opponents. That doesn't alter the fact that their goalkeeper wipes the floor with ours on every performance metric available, whether it's in terms of opportunity prevention, shot stopping or keeping the ball.

So when we are able to play possession based football even with DDG in the team, and the team gives away less chances on goal, it's all down to the team being better. But when the stats say Raya faces 34 more shots it's all because his team is worse and they play pressing brand of football, and it has nothing to do with how much sweeping, commanding Raya does?

 

[Kostov]

Karius is a great example.

Karius just proves that having a keeper who suits the team style is better than having a guy who excels in one area. And even in that one are he excels in he's been distinctly average in PL terms for a long time now.

Karius just proves that you can put an average GK to act a Neuer regen and it's all good until you have an attack that scored 145 goals that season it will take you to the CL final. Do you think our current attack is capable of scoring 145 goals with Karius on goal?

Despite Burnley playing a deeper line.

Pope was one of the top sweeper keepers in the league last season. And the two before, same in 17/18.

Top of the pile again this season.

Not they did not, according to @JB7 which is also a shock to me.

And that Pope stat surprises me to be honest. I always rated him as a very good GK, but mainly due to the traditional GK qualities he possesses, the sweeping thing I remember him doing some but never though he was that good at it. But Burnley scored 34 goals last season, so how did that help their team in attack. Ironically we have their striker on loan just about now.

 

[Kostov]

I think Henderson's dreadful performances for us when he got the chance are possibly the main reason we still have DDG starting most games despite the remaining question marks. Henderson actually seemed to shrink in stature in one defeat against Liverpool.

Sincerely I do not remember the timeline, but he absolutely stank up the place after some bad performance. Not sure why some are using that tenure stats as some benchmark, if anything it's the opposite.

 

[JB7]

That is a fecking shock to me. Who were the other 5 times with higher average line in the league from last season and where were we ranked? I just saw Burnley last year, they conceded less goals than us and also scored 34 goals, which got them relegated. What did this famous high line brought to their way of playing can you please enlighten me? They were obviously "able" to play a high line, they were obviously not able to survive the drop.
-
Klopp brought Karius because he just like some of you here though that premium GKs are easily found and waiting one the block. Turned out they didn't.
-
So when we are able to play possession based football even with DDG in the team, and the team gives away less chances on goal, it's all down to the team being better. But when the stats say Raya faces 34 more shots it's all because his team is worse and they play pressing brand of football, and it has nothing to do with how much sweeping, commanding Raya does?

Well they didn't play a high line for the same reason most teams do nowaday so it's not really a fair comparison, it kept them up year after year despite spending barely any money to be fair, but to answer your question the teams with a higher line than them were Chelsea, Brighton, Arsenal, Liverpool & City. We were 15th.

No, he bought Karius to challenge Mignolet which is why for the first 12 months or so, Karius played second fiddle to Mignolet. At no point was Karius ever expected to be the number one, he only took over because he was a better stylistic fit and money was focussed on being spent in other areas initially (much like we did last summer). They were always intending to buy a long term number one.

Yes, that's a pretty accurate summary. One of them has high opportunity prevention stats and the other has some of the lowest in the league. If the goalkeepers were switched around, which they wouldn't be because no way on this earth would a club with a strong statistical analysis system like Brentford would touch De Gea with a bargepole, they would face more shots on goal because he does not do the levels of sweeping or dealing with balls into the box that Raya does. In addition he doesn't keep the ball as well either so they'd more likely than not give up even more possession leading to chances against.

 

[sullydnl]

I have also seen enough of the likes of Raya/Sa/Sanchez to realize they are not worth it splashing the money when we have players like Fred, McT and Weghorst occupying crucial areas of the team.

Well money is a big part of the question really.

For example, Raya is reportedly available for £15-20m this summer. That's around what De Gea currently gets paid in wages in a single year. And Raya would certainly arrive on much lower wages than De Gea has or would have on a new contract even after a wage cut, with Raya's current wages reportedly being something like 1/13th of De Gea's annual salary. He could arrive here on a big pay rise and still be paid a lot less than De Gea would after a pay cut.

The point being that while we can argue about the pros/cons of replacing De Gea from a football perspective, a lot will also simply come down to how big of a pay cut he is willing to take on a new contract. Because at a certain level of pay the finances in terms of replacing him look a lot less of an obstacle. Particularly as you could also hope to recoup a fee on Raya in a few years time if he doesn't work out, whereas we will likely never get a fee back on De Gea given his age/wage profile.

Just using Raya as an example here but it could be any cheaper goalkeeper who is more of a stylistic fit.

 

[Kostov]

Well they didn't play a high line for the same reason most teams do nowaday so it's not really a fair comparison, it kept them up year after year despite spending barely any money to be fair, but to answer your question the teams with a higher line than them were Chelsea, Brighton, Arsenal, Liverpool & City. We were 15th.

I did not understand that first line? They did play a high line, unsuccessfully you mean? We were 15th and we were also dreadful for the majority of the season, where are we ranked this year? Part of my point being, is that the high line and sweeping especially is down to the managers choice. I mean if ETH tells DDG to come out and sweep more often, how fecking hard is that? Were there any instances where he has failed to do so? I understand the collecting of crosses issue, it's evident he does not leave the line but the other I am not sure.

No, he bought Karius to challenge Mignolet which is why for the first 12 months or so, Karius played second fiddle to Mignolet. At no point was Karius ever expected to be the number one, he only took over because he was a better stylistic fit and money was focussed on being spent in other areas initially (much like we did last summer). They were always intending to buy a long term number one.

Nah, I remember Liverpool fans and their mouthing off how they have unearthed a gem and Karius will take over. He shat the bed in the most glorious way possible.

Yes, that's a pretty accurate summary. One of them has high opportunity prevention stats and the other has some of the lowest in the league. If the goalkeepers were switched around, which they wouldn't be because no way on this earth would a club with a strong statistical analysis system like Brentford would touch De Gea with a bargepole, they would face more shots on goal because he does not do the levels of sweeping or dealing with balls into the box that Raya does. In addition he doesn't keep the ball as well either so they'd more likely than not give up even more possession leading to chances against.

And David Raya will probably shit the bad and become another Ben Foster after his first howler. But the GK and football is only judged by the stats in your line of thinking.

 

[Kostov]

Well money is a big part of the question really.

For example, Raya is reportedly available for £15-20m this summer. That's around what De Gea currently gets paid in wages in a single year. And Raya would certainly arrive on much lower wages than De Gea has or would have on a new contract even after a wage cut, with Raya's current wages reportedly being something like 1/13th of De Gea's annual salary. He could arrive here on a big pay rise and still be paid a lot less than De Gea would after a pay cut.

The point being that while we can argue about the pros/cons of replacing De Gea from a football perspective, a lot will also simply come down to how big of a pay cut he is willing to take on a new contract. Because at a certain level of pay the finances in terms of replacing him look a lot less of an obstacle. Particularly as you could also hope to recoup a fee on Raya in a few years time if he doesn't work out, whereas we will likely never get a fee back on De Gea given his age/wage profile.

Just using Raya as an example here but it could be any cheaper goalkeeper who is more of a stylistic fit.

You are making it out like 15-20m is peanuts. And yeah Raya will probably not play for free but a 100k a week player if anything. And then we get to the point of whether he can translate his short spell of PL form into the biggest club in the world.

And that "we can recoup" recoup from who? He will be 28 in September, nobody will buy Raya if he fails here, more probably we will have to pay his wages while he ends up on loan at Swansea or Osasuna.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

I did not understand that first line? They did play a high line, unsuccessfully you mean? We were 15th and we were also dreadful for the majority of the season, where are we ranked this year? Part of my point being, is that the high line and sweeping especially is down to the managers choice. I mean if ETH tells DDG to come out and sweep more often, how fecking hard is that? Were there any instances where he has failed to do so? I understand the collecting of crosses issue, it's evident he does not leave the line but the other I am not sure.


Nah, I remember Liverpool fans and their mouthing off how they have unearthed a gem and Karius will take over. He shat the bed in the most glorious way possible.


And David Raya will probably shit the bad and become another Ben Foster after his first howler. But the GK and football is only judged by the stats in your line of thinking.

Being fair, Ben Foster probably made fewer howlers in his whole career than DDG has in the last half decade.

We literally dropkicked Taibi out of the club for a single blunder which was no worse than DDG's against Everton alone. And that probably doesn't even crack Dave's top 10 howler list.

If you feel that it is worth persisting with DDG because he pulls off the occasional worlclass save than that's ok but it seems a bit strange to accuse other keepers of making mistakes when DDG's blooper reel is worse than any other keeper I have ever seen.

 

[Kostov]

Being fair, Ben Foster probably made fewer howlers in his whole career than DDG has in the last half decade.

We literally dropkicked Taibi out of the club for a single blunder which was no worse than DDG's against Everton alone. And that probably doesn't even crack Dave's top 10 howler list.

If you feel that it is worth persisting with DDG because he pulls off the occasional worlclass save than that's ok but it seems a bit strange to accuse other keepers of making mistakes when DDG's blooper reel is worse than any other keeper I have ever seen.

You obviously haven't seen enough. Yes DDG has made howlers but also won games on his own, I've never seen Foster come even close.

And I would love if we can replace DDG this summer, heck I would like us to do it even in this January. My point being is that we shouldn't until we fix other more pressing issues. The only way we do it, is probably if some arabs buy as and we splash 300m this summer also, or even better if we unnearth some GK gem like Chelsea managed to do it with Courtois.

Finding this GK who will make the difference like DDG used to do it, while also being suited to ETH way of playing, will be more difficult than some are making it out. Personally I don't think someone like Raya can do it.

 

[sullydnl]

You are making it out like 15-20m is peanuts. And yeah Raya will probably not play for free but a 100k a week player if anything. And then we get to the point of whether he can translate his short spell of PL form into the biggest club in the world.

And that "we can recoup" recoup from who? He will be 28 in September, nobody will buy Raya if he fails here, more probably we will have to pay his wages while he ends up on loan at Swansea or Osasuna.

Imagine Raya only stays two years. A 30 year old Raya on significantly lower wages will certainly command a bigger fee than a then 34 year old De Gea on higher wages. Who from and how much I have no idea, but even if it's a relatively nominal fee it's pretty inarguable that you will get more back on one than the other. And resale is obviously one factor in weighing up the costs around renewing De Gea or replacing him.

Contract length probably matters too. As far as I'm aware, the cost of a transfer gets recorded on the books as a yearly cost for each year of the contract and that book cost impacts rules around FFP and how much we can spend. And a Raya who turns 28 next year will almost certainly be given a longer contract upon signing than a De Gea who turns 33 next year. At which point even if they cost the same amount overall, the actual impact on our finances isn't 1-1, as it gets recorded differently.

My overall point being that when we talk about the prohibitive cost of replacing De Gea, it's somewhat more nuanced and complicated than it appears on face value. Because the sheer amount of money we pay De Gea (and will likely pay him even after a pay cut) means that some of the initial cost of replacing him would certainly be recouped elsewhere.

Replacing literally the most expensive goalkeeper on the planet has its financial upsides too, basically.

 

[Kostov]

Imagine Raya only stays two years. A 30 year old Raya on significantly lower wages will certainly command a bigger fee than a then 34 year old De Gea on higher wages. Who from and how much I have no idea, but even if it's a relatively nominal fee it's pretty inarguable that you will get more back on one than the other. And resale is obviously one factor in weighing up the costs around renewing De Gea or replacing him.

Contract length probably matters too. As far as I'm aware, the cost of a transfer gets recorded on the books as a yearly cost for each year of the contract and that book cost impacts rules around FFP and how much we can spend. And a Raya who turns 28 next year will almost certainly be given a longer contract upon signing than a De Gea who turns 33 next year. At which point even if they cost the same amount overall, the actual impact on our finances isn't 1-1, as it gets recorded differently.

My overall point being that when we talk about the prohibitive cost of replacing De Gea, it's somewhat more nuanced and complicated than it appears on face value. Because the sheer amount of money we pay De Gea (and will likely pay him even after a pay cut) means that some of the initial cost of replacing him would certainly be recouped elsewhere.

Listen nobody is offering DDG the wages he is on at the moment, and he will most likely sign a contract with much smaller wage. Thing is, if Raya fails here after we spend money and give him 100k a week, nobody will touch him either? Who is the guy actually and what has he shown? There are probably 4-5 similar keepers in Spain on half that wage.

We should replace DDG, that is for sure, but it should be a top GK or a generational talent, because history tells us only those cut it here.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

You obviously haven't seen enough. Yes DDG has made howlers but also won games on his own, I've never seen Foster come even close.

And I would love if we can replace DDG this summer, heck I would like us to do it even in this January. My point being is that we shouldn't until we fix other more pressing issues. The only way we do it, is probably if some arabs buy as and we splash 300m this summer also, or even better if we unnearth some GK gem like Chelsea managed to do it with Courtois.

Finding this GK who will make the difference like DDG used to do it, while also being suited to ETH way of playing, will be more difficult than some are making it out. Personally I don't think someone like Raya can do it.

That's reasonable. And your point that I watch DDG every time United play whereas I only catch Raya/Sanchez when we are playing Brentford/Brighton is correct and valid. However, I see other keepers generally every time United play and while they aren't capable of making the kinds of saves that DDG can make (for instance, the worldie against Crystal Palace), I also don't see oppo keepers dropping clangers against us nearly as often as DDG does generally. Even his decision to punch a ball (badly) that was falling vertically on top of him under no pressure against Arsenal rather than catching it...I genuinely can't remember an oppo keeper ever doing that against us.

If we can replace him with Raya and it wouldn't affect our pursuit of a CM/CF, then I'd go for it. But if we're a few million short on funding a Kane deal because we replaced DDG first, I'd be livid.

And full disclosure, I openly admit that I previously believed that Bazunu would be the best keeper in the PL by 2025, so it's possible that my judgement of Raya/Sanchez is off! But a DDG replacement is a third highest priority IMO.

 

[JB7]

I did not understand that first line? They did play a high line, unsuccessfully you mean? We were 15th and we were also dreadful for the majority of the season, where are we ranked this year? Part of my point being, is that the high line and sweeping especially is down to the managers choice. I mean if ETH tells DDG to come out and sweep more often, how fecking hard is that? Were there any instances where he has failed to do so? I understand the collecting of crosses issue, it's evident he does not leave the line but the other I am not sure.

Nah, I remember Liverpool fans and their mouthing off how they have unearthed a gem and Karius will take over. He shat the bed in the most glorious way possible.

And David Raya will probably shit the bad and become another Ben Foster after his first howler. But the GK and football is only judged by the stats in your line of thinking.

Well as you accurately observed, they conceded less goals than we did, and we finished 6th, so was it their defending that let them down or their attackers? It actually is pretty difficult if you're a goalkeeper not used to that way of playing. It's difficult enough to change the instincts of a 12 year old, let alone the instincts of a 31 year old who's been playing at the top level for over a decade.

You can remember Liverpool fans saying whatever you like. I knew people at Liverpool at the time and they were always signing a proper first choice goalkeeper in time. He was signed on the cheap to compete with Mignolet while they focussed on other areas.

Your issue with Raya is based on nothing, hence the crazy comparison with Ben Foster; the differences between the two in playing experience and mentality are vast. Football isn't based only by stats in any way of thinking, although with goalkeepers they are the easiest metric to prove a viewpoint, particularly on a goalkeeper like De Gea who people rate highly based on his YouTube saves and casually ignore his many many flaws. In a non-statistical view, I've each all of the 10 goalkeepers I mentioned to you the other day in the flesh multiple times to make a solid judgement of their abilities. Have you?

And after all this I now see that you're saying we should replace De Gea afterall despite spending the last two days defending him until you were blue in the face! Who should we be signing then in your opinion given that you don't think anyone seems to be good enough.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Appreciate your patience and well thought out/researched posts @JB7

 

[JB7]

Appreciate your patience and well thought out/researched posts @JB7

Thanks pal, I do try.

 

[Kostov]

Well as you accurately observed, they conceded less goals than we did, and we finished 6th, so was it their defending that let them down or their attackers? It actually is pretty difficult if you're a goalkeeper not used to that way of playing. It's difficult enough to change the instincts of a 12 year old, let alone the instincts of a 31 year old who's been playing at the top level for over a decade.

Well playing the 6th highest defensive line didn’t help their cause in attack that’s for sure did it? You were trying to explain how not having high enough defensive line was hindering our capability of winning football matches, my point from the start is that it’s not our biggest problem.

You can remember Liverpool fans saying whatever you like. I knew people at Liverpool at the time and they were always signing a proper first choice goalkeeper in time. He was signed on the cheap to compete with Mignolet while they focussed on other areas.

He was signed in order to play and he did play in a CL final. If you are trying to tell me it was their stop gap then fine it cost them. I’d rather we pass on a stop gap signing and go for our Allison directly.

Your issue with Raya is based on nothing, hence the crazy comparison with Ben Foster; the differences between the two in playing experience and mentality are vast. Football isn't based only by stats in any way of thinking, although with goalkeepers they are the easiest metric to prove a viewpoint, particularly on a goalkeeper like De Gea who people rate highly based on his YouTube saves and casually ignore his many many flaws. In a non-statistical view, I've each all of the 10 goalkeepers I mentioned to you the other day in the flesh multiple times to make a solid judgement of their abilities. Have you?

And after all this I now see that you're saying we should replace De Gea afterall despite spending the last two days defending him until you were blue in the face! Who should we be signing then in your opinion given that you don't think anyone seems to be good enough.

Someone else mentioned Foster, and it is a valid point to take into consideration. Raya is 27 has 2 PL seasons in the highest level. Yes how he copes with the transition to high end club should worry us in a potential transfer.

It’s a bit rich to speak how someone formed an opinion on DDG. I rated him highly and still do while I understand and agree he should be replaced, never said otherwise. But it should be done with a keeper of the highest quality.

EDIT: regarding potential candidates, I really have no favorites. The Portuguese Costa seemed a fine option than he shat his pants at the the WC. We should probably try Germany they usually produce top GK. Maignan is class but never leaving Milan.

 

[DWelbz19]

De Gea isn't some big character like Schmeichel, he has no leadership qualities at all on the pitch and his effect on our defenders has never been positive even at his best. He has basically been the Maguire of goalkeepers for the last 5 years but instead with a good reputation.

Yep. I think De Gea as a player excels in an individual basis -- he thrives in chaotic environments when our defence is not playing well because his best strengths are on show (amazing reactionary saves in repeated succession, and not much else).

It's a bit of an intangible, but I also think (much like Maguire) De Gea radiates nervousness most of the time. There's a third player in the squad who I'd say rounds out the top 3 in that regard, but there's no need for him to catch strays in another thread.

 

[Alemar]

Excellent clean sheet. Made a couple of saves, punched a ball from the cross.

 

[Sylar]

This is not about his performance but I'm just thinking his cup record since fergie left barring the cup final v Southampton hasn't been good has it?
And he's dropped clangers

Hoping he can win a trophy.
Back to the performance, it's nothing new. He can see us through the season but we gotta look to upgrade after that

 

[Idxomer]

This is not about his performance but I'm just thinking his cup record since fergie left barring the cup final v Southampton hasn't been good has it?
And he's dropped clangers

Hoping he can win a trophy.
Back to the performance, it's nothing new. He can see us through the season but we gotta look to upgrade after that

Remember him making a couple of good saves in the FA Cup final against Palace.

 

[Sylar]

He was good in the FA Cup final against Palace.

Seem to remember the goal conceded was poor (near post) but that's maybe harsh.
I do think schmeichel and VDS either don't let it in or are disappointed if they do.
But fair, I seem to remember clangers v Chelsea (fa), Sunderland (their late goal in this cup semi final), the champions League (Messi?), The Europa League farce (maybe harsh too).

Regardless , nice that he got a clean sheet (thanks VAR). Would be nice if he can sign off with a trophy or two

 

[Idxomer]

Seem to remember the goal conceded was poor (near post) but that's maybe harsh.
I do think schmeichel and VDS either don't let it in or are disappointed if they do.
But fair, I seem to remember clangers v Chelsea (fa), Sunderland (their late goal in this cup semi final), the champions League (Messi?), The Europa League farce (maybe harsh too).

Regardless , nice that he got a clean sheet (thanks VAR). Would be nice if he can sign off with a trophy or two

I remembered the goal which is why I edited my post

But yeah a lot of poor performances in the cups, both times Sevilla knocked us out in Europe too in addition to the ones you mentioned.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

This is not about his performance but I'm just thinking his cup record since fergie left barring the cup final v Southampton hasn't been good has it?
And he's dropped clangers

Hoping he can win a trophy.
Back to the performance, it's nothing new. He can see us through the season but we gotta look to upgrade after that

Do feel that he crumbles when we have our biggest games.

 

[Lyng]

Seem to remember the goal conceded was poor (near post) but that's maybe harsh.
I do think schmeichel and VDS either don't let it in or are disappointed if they do.
But fair, I seem to remember clangers v Chelsea (fa), Sunderland (their late goal in this cup semi final), the champions League (Messi?), The Europa League farce (maybe harsh too).

Regardless , nice that he got a clean sheet (thanks VAR). Would be nice if he can sign off with a trophy or two

Schmeichel single handedly cost Denmark the game against Brazil in 1998, so he wasnt immune to the odd bad game to be fair.

 

[Sylar]

Schmeichel single handedly cost Denmark the game against Brazil in 1998, so he wasnt immune to the odd bad game to be fair.

Oh I think every goal keeper makes mistake one day or another. It's always how they react to it or follow it up

With Schmeichel I remember he started 98/99 in poor form. But was key in moments like the CL final, or fa cup semi, etc.

Schmeichel also launched many counters, and was an imposing figure.
Vds brought calmness to our defence in a different way but again was imposing

Ddg seems to shrink away. Im not going to pick out key moments anymore because it's been done to death and we know what we get with DDG. People mention modern keepers to advance but we really need a goalkeeper to do basics too (control the box, communicate, not scared to catch crosses etc)
Ddg has been here ten years so maybe people forget what a United goalkeeper can be

Do feel that he crumbles when we have our biggest games.

It's a difficult one because I've seen it in standard league games too
I've seen him also have performances like that one V arsenal when he saved something like 30 shots, or the Spurs at Wembley? Where we won 1-0. He does seem to thrive when his goal is battered rather than having to make key saves at crucial moments out of nothing
If that makes sense

 

[JB7]

Well playing the 6th highest defensive line didn’t help their cause in attack that’s for sure did it? You were trying to explain how not having high enough defensive line was hindering our capability of winning football matches, my point from the start is that it’s not our biggest problem.
-
He was signed in order to play and he did play in a CL final. If you are trying to tell me it was their stop gap then fine it cost them. I’d rather we pass on a stop gap signing and go for our Allison directly.
-
Someone else mentioned Foster, and it is a valid point to take into consideration. Raya is 27 has 2 PL seasons in the highest level. Yes how he copes with the transition to high end club should worry us in a potential transfer.

It’s a bit rich to speak how someone formed an opinion on DDG. I rated him highly and still do while I understand and agree he should be replaced, never said otherwise. But it should be done with a keeper of the highest quality.

EDIT: regarding potential candidates, I really have no favorites. The Portuguese Costa seemed a fine option than he shat his pants at the the WC. We should probably try Germany they usually produce top GK. Maignan is class but never leaving Milan.

Well no, like I said they played a totally different type of football to most teams playing a high line so it's not a fair comparison. The were all about keeping the ball away from their goal and diagonal balls to wide players to get the ball in the box. Most possession based teams play a high line to compress the play in offensive areas to give each player on the ball options in possession, that's why managers want their full backs to invert and the wingers to hold width initially before coming inside. Playing so deep means we suffer from not compressing the play and therefore having to play slightly longer riskier balls than we would if we could play higher up the pitch, which often leads to us giving the ball away. Long term I expect that will change.
-
He was not signed in order to play, he was signed to challenge. He barely played at all in the first season and got into the team in the second season as he was a better stylistic fit for the team. However they were always signing a goalkeeper that summer, regardless of if he'd been MOTM in that Champions League final for example. Karius was never expected to be their number one long term.
-
Raya has got six full seasons of football behind him, granted only two in the PL but he has excelled at Brentford. Foster had played one year of Championship football and one season of PL football behind him on loan at Watford. It's crazy to never sign a goalkeeper from a smaller club because we signed one once who couldn't deal with the pressure of playing for United, particularly given that Foster a) played for a club that were nowhere near as good or progressive as Brentford and b) had two years of barely playing after his loan spell before he got his run in the team. Raya's a Spain international, has been to a World Cup - alongside another PL goalkeeper - ahead of De Gea, which suggests a top quality manager in Luis Enrique has no concerns about his mentality. I'm sure the club would speak with Christian Eriksen for example who played with him last season to get an idea of his character before making a move if they were interested. It's not as if De Gea is what Klopp would refer to as a "mentality monster" either given how much he shrinks after any kind of mistake or team mate shouts at him.

In terms of Costa - young goalkeepers make mistakes. It's about how he recovers from the World Cup. I like Maignan too but then I couldn't believe we weren't interested when he was leaving Lille for like £15m; equally he's missed a lot of football this season injured so important to see how he comes back.

 

[MadDogg]

Could be my imagination but he seems worse in the big games. The nerves of the occasion seem to get to him more.

Certainly not imagination. It's been noticeable since at least the 2018 World Cup that a significant amount of his worst games tend to happen in the most important games. That's not to say every big game is bad, but it definitely makes it more likely. He's made a lot of truly bad mistakes in knockout matches.