Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player

[togg]

I'm not sure that Arsene will have any more patience than anyone else to be honest.

 

[bishblaize]

Will people do anything to prove Welbeck is something that he clearly is not?

Why, what do you think I'm trying to say he is? A quick read back will clearly show I said he won't develop to the top level.

My point is that we oughtn't make definitive conclusions of a player based on their performances aged 22/23.

 

[bishblaize]

He's 24.

Not that it makes a substantive difference, but for the record he's actually 23 (or so sayeth wikipedia). The performances we're judging were when he was 22/23.

 

[united_99]

Well Bild gave him a 3 (1 best, 6 worse), which is better than most other Arsenal players got. Özil got 6, Ramsey, Sanchez and Wilshere 5.

http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/c...d-arsenal-oezil-note-sechs-37696888.bild.html

 

[Robbie Boy]

Why, what do you think I'm trying to say he is? A quick read back will clearly show I said he won't develop to the top level.

My point is that we oughtn't make definitive conclusions of a player based on their performances aged 22/23.

Well most of the conclusions aren't as such 'definitive' - they have been formed on the actual basis of watching Welbeck's progression, or lack of it, to date. He may well turn into a great striker; but chances are, he simply won't. He is far too erratic in front of goal and lacks the natural composure to be a good striker.

The players you picked were fairly random and didn't tell the full story.

 

[kopviolator]

He'll come good.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

A player doesn't have to score every game to be a top level striker, Arsenal need a poacher, said it before, they would have been better off with Hernandez, Welbeck, albeit a good player, I don't think will ever be a 25/30+ goal a season striker, but Drogba on average, even during his Chelsea years managed about 0.48 in terms of goals to games played, less than 1 in 2, and I don't think anyone would doubt Welbecks value to the team

 

[Shark]

I don't think finishing and composure is something you "have or you don't." The more he gets in positions to finish, and with the right mentality and mindset, he'll eventually get used to being in position to finish off chances. It's something similar to muscle memory.

Don't know how many times I've seen a post like this over the course of his career with United. This theory that he'll suddenly start putting away his chances is based on very little evidence. He's always gotten himself into positions to score and never learned from it. He's 24 now, hardly at a 'young n learnin' stage anymore.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Don't know how many times I've seen a post like this over the course of his career with United. This theory that he'll suddenly start putting away his chances is based on very little evidence. He's always gotten himself into positions to score and never learned from it. He's 24 now, hardly at a 'young n learnin' stage anymore.

It can happen. It happened to Rooney at around the same age.

Of course, there's loads more strikers at a tier or two below Rooney for whom it never happened. Time will tell if Welbeck is in the majority or the minority.

 

[BAMSOLA]

What on Earth are you on about? Youth product or not, he's moved to a direct rival, why would any United fan wish him well in those circumstances? Given the move has been widely framed as a mistake and poor business by United, I found his 'finishing' yesterday hilarious.

So we move immediately from wishing him well while at United to attacking his ability every time he slips up with nothing in between?

I for one hope he goes on to have a good career wherever that is as he served the club well during his time. I hope in having that good career that Arsenal don't prosper as I still dislike them. And yes I know that if he is successful there is every chance Arsenal will be, but it is possible to have conflicting views on something like this rather than going into full dislike, especially when a lot of it seems to have been fueled by some butt-hurt sense of the media attacking United which is actually nothing to do with him.

Maybe I just have a problem with fans playing up to cliches and being so fickle. Who gives a feck about what today's agenda driven media have to say about anything football related anyway?

 

[Shark]

It can happen. It happened to Rooney at around the same age.

Of course, there's loads more strikers at a tier or two below Rooney for whom it never happened. Time will tell if Welbeck is in the majority or the minority.

Rooney always had a finish in him though and a lot of composure, even at a very young age. Danny never looks in control of his own body to me and it effects a lot of things he tries to do on the pitch, including his shooting. Remember SAF saying at one time that he's yet to grow into his body, yet it seems he still hasn't.

 

[Dans]

I don't think this true, the very best strikers are naturally composed in front of goal. Can't think of many top strikers who have gone from poor finishers to clinical, you either have it or you don't.

I agree with this.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So we move immediately from wishing him well while at United to attacking his ability every time he slips up with nothing in between?

I for one hope he goes on to have a good career wherever that is as he served the club well during his time. I hope in having that good career that Arsenal don't prosper as I still dislike them. And yes I know that if he is successful there is every chance Arsenal will be, but it is possible to have conflicting views on something like this rather than going into full dislike, especially when a lot of it seems to have been fueled by some butt-hurt sense of the media attacking United which is actually nothing to do with him.

Maybe I just have a problem with fans playing up to cliches and being so fickle. Who gives a feck about what today's agenda driven media have to say about anything football related anyway?

It's not fickle in the slightest to have a different opinion about a footballer when he leaves your club to play for a rival.

It might be fickle to change your opinion on his ability but how on earth is it fickle to go from wanting him to do well to wanting him to do badly? He's an Arsenal player now. As with all Arsenal players, I don't want him to score any goals. That's been the case from the moment he put on their shirt. Obviously, the exact opposite would be true if he still played for United but he doesn't.

 

[BazzaBear]

Plus this shout of 'fickle' completely ignores the likely reality that it is different people who liked Welbeck then and don't like Welbeck now. I would go so far as to suggest that the people not liking him now are the same people who didn't before.

People forever do this. Think of our support as one mass and ascribe beliefs held by some to all of them, then claim they have changed their mind.

 

[Yorkeontop]

Hopefully Danny scores soon. I can feel the tension building up about him. He aint our's anymore but I still got love for him,for now that is.

 

[bleedred]

So we move immediately from wishing him well while at United to attacking his ability every time he slips up with nothing in between?

I for one hope he goes on to have a good career wherever that is as he served the club well during his time. I hope in having that good career that Arsenal don't prosper as I still dislike them. And yes I know that if he is successful there is every chance Arsenal will be, but it is possible to have conflicting views on something like this rather than going into full dislike, especially when a lot of it seems to have been fueled by some butt-hurt sense of the media attacking United which is actually nothing to do with him.

Maybe I just have a problem with fans playing up to cliches and being so fickle. Who gives a feck about what today's agenda driven media have to say about anything football related anyway?

I would say that attacks are mostly directed at posters in here rather than the player itself. You know the posters, who were crying as if we sold the worlds best young talent available.

 

[BAMSOLA]

It's not fickle in the slightest to have a different opinion about a footballer when he leaves your club to play for a rival.

It might be fickle to change your opinion on his ability but how on earth is it fickle to go from wanting him to do well to wanting him to do badly? He's an Arsenal player now. As with all Arsenal players, I don't want him to score any goals. That's been the case from the moment he put on their shirt. Obviously, the exact opposite would be true if he still played for United but he doesn't.

That is the exact definition of fickle, changing ones opinion about a player based solely on who he plays for. Its not that hard to be glad that Arsenal are doing badly whilst not taking so much pleasure in a players on pitch misfortunes the moment he just happens to be playing for a rival. I hate the rival not the player.

 

[milemuncher777]

Plus this shout of 'fickle' completely ignores the likely reality that it is different people who liked Welbeck then and don't like Welbeck now. I would go so far as to suggest that the people not liking him now are the same people who didn't before.

People forever do this. Think of our support as one mass and ascribe beliefs held by some to all of them, then claim they have changed their mind.

You couldn't be more wrong.

The people who wants him to fail now are same who were pissed off at him moving to Arsenal because of fear that he'd mature into a very good striker playing regular football.

 

[bishblaize]

Don't know how many times I've seen a post like this over the course of his career with United. This theory that he'll suddenly start putting away his chances is based on very little evidence. He's always gotten himself into positions to score and never learned from it. He's 24 now, hardly at a 'young n learnin' stage anymore.

Hes 23, for the record.

 

[Sied]

Danny's first 2 games have been vs City and Dortmund so he's not exactly been eased in. He's performed pretty well in those games too, considering.

He hasn't had a prolonged period as an out and out striker for us, so that will benefit him over time. Arsenal also play completely different to what he's been used to at United, so he'll adapt to that over time too.

Like Wenger says, I'm confident he'll improve and easily justify his transfer fee. On the other hand I doubt he's going to make us regret swapping him for Falcao either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That is the exact definition of fickle, changing ones opinion about a player based solely on who he plays for. Its not that hard to be glad that Arsenal are doing badly whilst not taking so much pleasure in a players on pitch misfortunes the moment he just happens to be playing for a rival. I hate the rival not the player.

This is the exact definition of fickle:

adjective
1.
likely to change, especially due to caprice, irresolution, or instability; casually changeable:
fickle weather.
2.
not constant or loyal in affections:
a fickle lover.

Obviously, the key issue here is whether your loyalty and affection is directed towards indvidual players or individual football clubs. I'm firmly in the latter category and am being utterly consistent in wishing well on all players that play for the club I support, while the exact opposite applies to players that don't play for Manchester United. What's changed here is the club Welbeck plays for, not the allegiances of United fans like me.

Personally, I find the cult of the individual in football really fecking bizarre. Fans forming allegiances with individual footballers who they end up "supporting" whichever club they play for. Not my cup of tea at all but I can see why people who think like that might want Danny to well at Arsenal. Each to their own really.

 

[NinjaZombie]

I don't think this true, the very best strikers are naturally composed in front of goal. Can't think of many top strikers who have gone from poor finishers to clinical, you either have it or you don't.

Diego Forlan was fluffing chances for us before becoming a regular scorer. I remember Rooney himself wasn't as good a finisher as he is now when he was younger.

I'm not saying composure cannot be an inate ability. Not everyone is Ruud Van Nistelrooy. I'm saying given time, Welbeck can be a 25 goal per season goalscorer.

But it's true. He is fluffing his chances now. Remains to be seen how long they'll be patient with him.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Hopefully Danny scores soon. I can feel the tension building up about him. He aint our's anymore but I still got love for him,for now that is.

I feel the same, but you can almost be sure his breakthrough goal will be against us in the 90th minute. Can't see him celebrating it much though.

 

[golden_blunder]

I actually think he'll probably be happiest being 2nd choice CF to Giroud (as I've stated in this thread he certainly won't keep Giroud out of the team), as he'll still get plenty of minutes but won't have the responsibility of 1st choice striker.

Talking our URANUS again JUPITER

why would someone want to be 2nd choice?? If anything he's seen whats happened to the career of his mate Sturridge and he wants to emulate that.

lots of people going overboard on his 2nd appearance. 'Not good enough for that level', yet its not so long ago he was tearing Real Madrid to shreds.

Patience people

 

[Robbie Boy]

I would say that attacks are mostly directed at posters in here rather than the player itself. You know the posters, who were crying as if we sold the worlds best young talent available.

This is pretty spot on. This along with the antics of the media and the whole "lost identity" crap.

 

[Erebus]

The simple fact is that when he reaches 30 there will still be people trying to convince themselves that he has the potential to be a first rate striker. He doesn't and he's not shown evidence of it for a while now. He's good - but the way some on here laud him is way over the top.

 

[BAMSOLA]

This is the exact definition of fickle:

adjective
1.
likely to change, especially due to caprice, irresolution, or instability; casually changeable:
fickle weather.
2.
not constant or loyal in affections:
a fickle lover.

Obviously, the key issue here is whether your loyalty and affection is directed towards indvidual players or individual football clubs. I'm firmly in the latter category and am being utterly consistent in wishing well on all players that play for the club I support, while the exact opposite applies to players that don't play for Manchester United.

Personally, I find the cult of the individual in football really fecking bizarre. Fans forming allegiances with individual footballers who they end up "supporting" whichever club they play for. Not my cup of tea at all but I can see why people who think like that might want Danny to well at Arsenal. Each to their own really.

Sorry but this still fits the definition as I believe some are not being "constant in their affections", hate to use the term affections as its a little wishy-washy in this context but I would hope all supporters wanted him as a local lad and youth prospect to do well whilst at United. I guess the debate becomes whether that is solely on him playing for United or whether there are other factors that develop over time (genuinely like for him as a person, feel he has served the club well during his time here). I'd like to think most feel he at least tried his best for the club without excelling; so why can't opinions on him be somewhat tempered to something less than "feck him he plays for Arsenal now"; its all a little too out-rightly tribal for me (another thing I dislike in a lot of modern supporters) and perhaps a better word for what i'm getting at if you like.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the cult of the individual as it doesn't rely of you to do that at the expense of the club, it just relies on a player having engendered enough goodwill during his time at the club for you not to take pleasure in his personal failures.

 

[Carl]

The simple fact is that when he reaches 30 there will still be people trying to convince themselves that he has the potential to be a first rate striker. He doesn't and he's not shown evidence of it for a while now. He's good - but the way some on here laud him is way over the top.

I don't think that's true or fair. The reason some believe he could still go on to be a quality striker is because of what hes shown when played upfront and feel that he hasn't been given a run up front to show what he can do.

If he gets plenty of games up front for Arsenal and doesn't kick on them I'm sure those people would admit they got it wrong. Myself included.

 

[bleedred]

Talking our URANUS again JUPITER

why would someone want to be 2nd choice?? If anything he's seen whats happened to the career of his mate Sturridge and he wants to emulate that.

lots of people going overboard on his 2nd appearance. 'Not good enough for that level', yet its not so long ago he was tearing Real Madrid to shreds.

Patience people

That's some bullshit revisionism... He had a good game, probably the best game he ever played for us. But tearing Madrid apart..???..Seriously??..

 

[ScarleyUtd]

Well Bild gave him a 3 (1 best, 6 worse), which is better than most other Arsenal players got. Özil got 6, Ramsey, Sanchez and Wilshere 5.

http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/c...d-arsenal-oezil-note-sechs-37696888.bild.html

But that's Danny all over isn't it? Causes problems for defenders, works hard, always shows up – but in the end doesn't score.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sorry but this still fits the definition as I believe some are not being "constant in their affections", hate to use the term affections as its a little wishy-washy in this context but I would hope all supporters wanted him as a local lad and youth prospect to do well whilst at United. I guess the debate becomes whether that is solely on him playing for United or whether there are other factors that develop over time (genuinely like for him as a person, feel he has served the club well during his time here). I'd like to think most feel he at least tried his best for the club without excelling; so why can't opinions on him be somewhat tempered to something less than "feck him he plays for Arsenal now"; its all a little too out-rightly tribal for me (another thing I dislike in a lot of modern supporters) and perhaps a better word for what i'm getting at if you like.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the cult of the individual as it doesn't rely of you to do that at the expense of the club, it just relies on a player having engendered enough goodwill during his time at the club for you not to take pleasure in his personal failures.

Ok, yes. Fair enough. That's a bit more nuanced than this idea that anyone who no longer wants him to succed as an Arsenal player is simply being "fickle"

There's definitely an element of tribalism in having a very black and white view of a United player, pre and post leaving the club. I'm guilty as charged on this count.

 

[finneh]

Problem with Welbeck we've been waiting 6 years for him to become a goal scorer, whether he played on the wing or not he always got a chance on goal and more often than not missed. I'm not sure much can be done about that.

I stated to give up on him 12/13 season in terms of him ever becoming a goal scorer. He must have had 15-20 opportunities that season (even if the majority were from the wing) that I'd class as a 50/50 for a quality player... He scored twice. A top drawer player would have comfortably been in double figures.

 

[Walrus]

I think Welbecks all round game has generally been very good. Obviously his finishing is shite, as it was for us. Not sure why people expected an instant transformation...

I think if Wenger shows a bit of patience then Welbeck will become an excellent player for them. We have seen him score goals - it is a lack of confidence which stems from not getting gametime as a central striker. He is getting into positions where he has great chances, it's another cliche but it's only a matter of time before he starts putting them away. Rooney has had far worse "dry spells" and normally when he starts scoring, the goals pour in.

 

[Mogget]

For all the stick Giroud gets (plenty of it unwarranted) he's a far better striker than Welbeck.

What is this based on? I don't understand how United fans can criticise Welbeck's finishing and then in the next breath say Giroud is a far better striker? Do you watch Giroud play? He misses just as many, if not more, easy chances than Welbeck. The one thing I found promising about Welbeck last night was that at least he has pace, Giroud wouldn't even have managed to get into those positions last night to miss. He needs his chances laid on a plate for him to miss.

 

[Robbie Boy]

What is this based on? I don't understand how United fans can criticise Welbeck's finishing and then in the next breath say Giroud is a far better striker? Do you watch Giroud play? He misses just as many, if not more, easy chances than Welbeck. The one thing I found promising about Welbeck last night was that at least he has pace, Giroud wouldn't even have managed to get into those positions last night to miss. He needs his chances laid on a plate for him to miss.

I'm basing it from watching them both play. Yes, Giroud is a far better striker. Welbeck might be better at other aspects, but as a finisher, Giroud is well ahead.

 

[Mogget]

I'm basing it from watching them both play. Yes, Giroud is a far better striker. Welbeck might be better at other aspects, but as a finisher, Giroud is well ahead.

He just isn't. How many Arsenal games did you watch last season? Clearly not enough if you think Giroud is ahead of Welbeck as a finisher.

 

[Robbie Boy]

He just isn't. How many Arsenal games did you watch last season? Clearly not enough if you think Giroud is ahead of Welbeck as a finisher.

Well my brother is an Arsenal fan as I have stated. So I have watched quite a-lot of their games. Sorry but Giroud is a far better finisher. What matches have you been watching? Welbeck lacks the most simple pieces of composure.

 

[Mogget]

Well my brother is an Arsenal fan as I have stated. So I have watched quite a-lot of their games. Sorry but Giroud is a far better finisher. What matches have you been watching? Welbeck lacks the most simple pieces of composure.

All of them. I'm an Arsenal fan and imo Giroud is the most frustrating player on the team.

 

[golden_blunder]

That's some bullshit revisionism... He had a good game, probably the best game he ever played for us. But tearing Madrid apart..???..Seriously??..

is it any more bs than those saying he doesnt belong at that level? keep in mind he has a good England record and has had good games for Utd in the CL

more experienced players than him have taken longer to settle at a new club, people need to show some patience. thats the problem with the modern game, fans dont have patience

 

[BAMSOLA]

Ok, yes. Fair enough. That's a bit more nuanced than this idea that anyone who no longer wants him to succed as an Arsenal player is simply being "fickle"

There's definitely an element of tribalism in having a very black and white view of a United player, pre and post leaving the club. I'm guilty as charged on this count.

A lot are and I can't even presume that my stance on this issue is the correct one to have.

What i'd love however is not to see this thread bumped with messages full of ill will every time he struggles (which IMO will not be for long). I don't mind people saying he is struggling or that we did the right thing in moving him on because he wasn't quite up to playing consistently at the level we need, all those seem like fair comment to me. I just sense and dislike the sudden and extreme change of will toward him although I don't think that should be censored if that is how people feel. I just feel the opposite so express my opinion like anyone else.