I think Welbeck is a significantly better player than Morata right now. Morata's goalscoring isn't even that impressive.
Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player
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Nah, it's not clutching straws at all. Teams looking at Welbeck the striker will probably look at his England performances, which have been very good.
But we're not going to agree either way, so probably best to leave it there.
Diego Costa went to Chelsea for 32m. Also Lukaku was available for less than that.
Balotelli was available for the same price you paid for Welbeck.
Or you could've bought Remy for 6m less than you paid for Welbeck.
You'll read everything on here. Morata is better player than Welbeck even though he barely played 1600 minutes of football at top level at club he had just one(two at times) striker as his competition, and scored around 10 goals in process, in 4 years. Yeah, it's the 'United' way at looking at things. feck me.
I never said Morata was a better player. He's not. He's shown more than a few signs of being a better goalscorer, though, and sometimes that's enough when you're a striker.
They've been fine, but not great or anything like that. It is the United thing, just like it would the Arsenal thing or the Liverpool thing. Every club and its supporters will be looking at its players - not just the home grown ones - looking for any positive signs. We've always done the same with the likes of Anderson and Nani, for instance.
But it's a different point of view from the outside. The world doesn't rate Welbeck and his performances so highly and they don't care he's a good game against Real Madrid, he doesn't even remember it, because it's meaningless unless you do it on a regular basis.
I'm not buying the Welbeck crap about playing out of his "natural position".
Let's suppose that he doesn't play up front in the central position and let's give him the benefit of the doubt in that he won't score as many goals from that position, but isn't it true that genuinely good players find a way to be productive within the position they're employed?
He has often played on left forward, left advanced wing and classic left wing. In all this time, including those times he was employed in his correct position, he has contributed a grand total of eight assists in all games for all teams (England and Man Utd). Just to put this into perspective; he's managed to achieve the same amount of assists as he has done with yellow cards.
Goals aside, that record is appalling, and there isn't a single Welbeck apologist on this entire board that is coherent enough to produce an eloquent argument to defend that fact. A player is the sum total of his productivity. Good players adapt and make themselves productive where they are.
Let's suppose that he doesn't play up front in the central position and let's give him the benefit of the doubt in that he won't score as many goals from that position, but isn't it true that genuinely good players find a way to be productive within the position they're employed?
He has often played on left forward, left advanced wing and classic left wing. In all this time, including those times he was employed in his correct position, he has contributed a grand total of eight assists in all games for all teams (England and Man Utd). Just to put this into perspective; he's managed to achieve the same amount of assists as he has done with yellow cards.
Goals aside, that record is appalling, and there isn't a single Welbeck apologist on this entire board that is coherent enough to produce an eloquent argument to defend that fact. A player is the sum total of his productivity. Good players adapt and make themselves productive where they are.
I'd pick Welbeck over either Remy or Balotelli. They're both probably better now but Welbeck has it in him to be a lot better than Remy and Balotelli is a nutter who can't be relied on.
well it's all conjecture at the moment. If he bangs in more than 20 goals for Arsenal this season, well, we will probably start thinking what ifs.. However, I wouldn't blame United or LVG for that. At this moment in time LVG knows and Danny knows that with only the FA cup and league to go for and with a riches up front, Danny was not going to get a lot of games and the ones he would get he'd probably be stuck on the wing. It was a decision right now that is fair to both parties..
...I still think Danny will find himself on the wing more often than not come the new year!!
...I still think Danny will find himself on the wing more often than not come the new year!!
Not always, I guess. How good could Van Nistelrooy, for instance, have been on the wing?
Welbeck normally does quite well as a striker. He's contributed little on the wing. Solution: don't play him on the wing, he's a striker, that's the one role he can do.
Maybe the wording wasn't the greatests, as it was left open for interpreration. So that's my bottom line: Welbeck has more to his game. Morata has more goals in him. And which of the two you prefer depends on what sort of player you need.
Perhaps he is judging morata from his excellent youth career both in madrids youth system and the Spanish youth teams where he played a big part in the two teams that won both the uefa under 19 and under 21 tournaments, winning the golden boot in both and getting into the team of the tournament in 2013. He hasn't really gotten an extended run in the Madrid team up front so it is quite difficult to make an assessment on him in that regard and I suppose the same could be said about welbeck too as he has not had an extended run in the team upfront either. This season will be very important for both of them to prove themselves and will also allow for much more accurate assessments of both players levels.
Youth level and top level are two different things. He is talking about players being proven at top level, and Morata definitely isn't proven player, or goalscorer, while Welbeck as a player is pretty much proven as it gets(his goalscoring maybe isn't yet, altough he has more than decent record for National team, and has scored against top opposition).
That sounded clear to me as it gets, but OK.
Players move if money is paid for them. This happens every summer. The notion that Arsenal were waiting for a striker and could not sign one due to unavailability is just ridiculous.
Diego Costa, Falcao both were signed by clubs competing with Arsenal.
There are always players available for the right price.
I don't really agree, I don't consider either to be proven (at least as top players good enough for a big club that is, as it is obvious both are talented). While it is possible to speculate based on what they have shown so far, if both started upfront for a team over the course of an entire season you could not be sure of what you would get. Neither has managed to nail down a starting spot at their clubs and I think it would have been harder for welbeck to have gotten games at Madrid over the last few years with them competing against that great Barcelona team as they would not have been willing to have taken many risks or have been patient to have given youth a chance. Heck, they are not very patient or willing to give youth a chance in general. Until they get a run in their respective positions for an extended period of time I don't think its possible to see what they are truly capable of, although I agree that welbeck has shown more at the highest level so far as he has been given the chance, while morata has not.
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Well, Welbeck has played over 140 games for Manchester United, side that was winning trophies in process, was regular starter in majority of big games for United over last few years, all that while having the likes of Wayne Rooney, van Persie, and even Chicharito, who was scoring lot of goals few seasons ago, as his competition. Morata couldn't get a game ahead of Benzema who didn't score a goal in league in last three months of last season. I am not saying Morata won't prove he is good, but I don't think he has proved anything yet, while Welbeck is more than proven player at top level.
I wished he rather realised straight away that Fletcher wasn't good enough to be vice-captain.
Anyway all good/apparently convincing talk by LvG, now time to walk the walk and prove that this club can reach the standard Welbeck apparently wasn't good enough for (even though he didn't say it like that, but rather regarding the strikers at United).
The same way it's time for Welbeck to prove if indeed Rooney/RvP were kind of holding him back or if he just can't reach their level.
We tried to sign Diego Costa back in January and was told he wanted to join Chelsea so that was non starter. Lukaku for £28m? Give me a fecking break! Remy has been desperate to join us for years but clearly we don't rate him, I don't think his general hold up play is all that great either, don't think he plays that well with his back to goal. As for Balotelli, I agree I would have taken a risk at the price Liverpool paid. But it clearly wasn't to do with the money when it came to him, obviously Wenger doesn't like something about him. He might want someone more dynamic and hard working up top.
With Welbeck if things don't work out we will recoup most of that fee or he will make a very capable backup.
Benzemas main job is not to score, he is there to provide space for Ronaldo and bale by dropping deep and dragging defenders out of position. He is the teams third goalscorer and that was also the case when higuain was at the club. Just because he is not scoring does not mean he is not doing his job well. Surely as a fan of welbeck you can appreciate that. Morata would not be able to do that job near as well and that is also part of the reason higuain could also not become the main striker. I dont know what you mean by proven at the top level. If you mean playing in the premier league then sure. If you mean playing for a big club like united then I am not so sure. Raul bravo managed 100 games for Madrid and pavon played 106 league games and more in the CL. I would not consider them to be anywhere near proven at the top level or to be good enough for Madrid. If welbeck was as proven at the top level as you say he would still be at united.
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To me, LVGs comments about Welbeck not having the record of RVP or Rooney seem pretty off the mark.
Welbeck is a young player, and a lot of his appearances at United have been out wide. He has never truly had a run of games as a striker - so to compare him to players who have been consistently played as strikers, and who are in their peak years, seems a really unfair comparison.
Welbeck is a young player, and a lot of his appearances at United have been out wide. He has never truly had a run of games as a striker - so to compare him to players who have been consistently played as strikers, and who are in their peak years, seems a really unfair comparison.
The trend of referring to anyone who sticks up for a player as an apologist is massively saddening. To address your point though, Welbeck did adapt the best he could to that position and his defensive output was pretty good as well as some of his dribbling and ball retention but considering he's never shown any aptitude at crossing or any particular ability for through balls he was unsurprisingly not a particularly creative outlet on the wing. Every player struggles to a certain extent outside their natural position, some more than others but that's less to do with who is good and who has a versatile set of skills.
For starters Morata is 21, soon 22. Welbeck 23 soon 24.
Real play with one up front United with two.
And Morata is not really a marketing name, which is important for Real and their starting line up.
I didnt like the "not good enough comment" but this is how world class teams operate, you think any of City, Chelsea, Bayern etc would go to MK Dons with two senior strikers and not even manage a shot, If we want to be the best we have to be ruthless again, Danny wouldnt of got a sniff in our teams of ghe past, we dropped our standards in the last 5 years and its put up.or shut up time, Welbeck as a starting striker didnt strike much fear into much opposition lets face it
I agree that 28m for Lukaku is high, bordering on too high, but then he'd be absolutely banging them in for you.
Lukaku's scored 37 PL goals in the last two seasons, Welbeck has scored 26 PL goals since 2008...
Plus Lukaku's two and a half years younger than Welbeck, thus has far greater probability of improving more than Danny.
He doesn't need to be a superb crosser of the ball. Welbeck has pace. I'm sure an intelligent footballer like Danny can figure out how to utilise his pace and strength advantage to be a more prominent threat from the side. Also, I'm not entirely sure what trend you're referring to because I've certainly not come across it used in a football sense prior to today. I dare use that word because quite frankly I believe that too many folks are making excuses for Danny not performing. Danny has stated on occasions that he looks to make runs behind the defence. This coming from a player that does nothing of the sort. He'd score more from the side if he were more of an intelligent runner in channels. He'd assist more if he compensated for his lack of crossing ability by using his speed and strength (and trickery) to get good side positions to assist.
Again, eight assists, goals aside, is not good enough for a club like Manchester United. When did we accept such low standards? when did we make such concessions for players purely because they were home grown? anyone else and they wouldn't receive half the protection Danny has. That clouds people's objectivity.
Darren Bent had a pretty good goal scoring record too. Lukaku is quite overrated.
that team was set-up very poorly. think we can all admit that
He's also got the first touch of a bloody donkey at times, that is something which he can get away with at Everton. However when you play for the top sides and teams sit deep your build up play is crucial and he'd stick out like a sore thumb.
There have been a few players in the league who always got good numbers but clearly not good enough for the top sides, imo Lukaku fits that category. Not saying he is a bad player but he needs to improve a lot and I think close to £30m is way too much to pay for his potential. We could just wait a year and then make a move a wide forward like Reus or Cuadrado and try Theo or one of them up top. In the meanwhile someone like Welbeck will do us just fine, he is a decent player and versatile. Gives us much needed extra pace up top as well so it is a decent deal for us.
There have been a few players in the league who always got good numbers but clearly not good enough for the top sides, imo Lukaku fits that category. Not saying he is a bad player but he needs to improve a lot and I think close to £30m is way too much to pay for his potential. We could just wait a year and then make a move a wide forward like Reus or Cuadrado and try Theo or one of them up top. In the meanwhile someone like Welbeck will do us just fine, he is a decent player and versatile. Gives us much needed extra pace up top as well so it is a decent deal for us.
I do agree the service was woeful on the night, but when push comes to shove if we were to lose one of RVP and Rooney for a long period of time over the season I wouldnt depend on Welbeck to get us were we need to be at this moment in time, Chelsea and City have over taken us and we have reacted, simple as, It felt terrible to see Hernandez and Welbeck go but with our lack of goals from Midfield we really need our strikers performing this season.
Now we can honestly say all 3 of our strikers would walk in to any other team in the league, and if one of Falcao/Rooney or RVP gets injured not to worry, I do hope Danny proves us wrong as I like him as a player and all that but with whats at stake financially this season we need match winners in our attack, a teamsheet that scares the Citys and the Chelseas, teams cannot come to Old Trafford anymore and think they can get something, Di Maria, Rooney, Mata, Van Persie and Falcao give us that
I know well what Benzema's main job is, and I aprecciate him for his style of play, I think he is probably the best striker in the world judging just all around play(altough he can be pain in the ass with his lack of interest at times). I actually quite like him, but for a striker in a team that's scoring goals for fun to not score for few months is quite embarassing to be fair.
By proven at top level I mean proven as a starter for top club that is competing/winning trophies, plus proven as an international player which Welbeck was for the last 4 years. As I said, he was regular in big games, and not just regular starter, but quite often one of the best performers in those, he was starter for his National team at Euro and partly at World Cup, scoring two important goals at Euro in process and ending up as one of best England players at that Euro(and as a forward in that team that was really tough). I am not sure you can say the same about the likes of Pavon and Raul Bravo.
What exactly is your point?
This doens't make much sense. Even the the very best can have a poor first touch at times. So to use that as the basis for your argument is not very smart.
Obviously I am us to win the league but if we don't I want Arsenal. Because of Welbeck. That's right.
The man goes into depth with his analysis, this so called record will be more than just goals I think. He probably objectively analyses how the player fits his profile and has concluded Welbeck's goals, assists, chance conversion rate etc. will not be at the level he wants. Surely he has factored into account his potential because it is illogical to compare Welbeck to an in his prime Rooney or RVP.
Without a doubt his sport science team must have analysed Welbeck's games playing centrally also.
This record of his could also be everything he has on the player. Not just stats but his analysis and it doesn't meet the standards he demands.
no its b/c Van Gaal is dealing with the now. Both rooney and RVP will better than Welbeck or hernandez in the next 3-4 years(as LVG made mention of their record agaisnt Welbeck). As for Januzaj and Wilson, they are both under 20 years old. So it makes more sense to let both Hernandez and Welbeck go.
Wenger said:
Also, apparently Wenger was with Ferguson on the day of the transfer in Rome... Interesting if true.
Wenger said:
I hate it and love it how he's cryptic and guarded all of the time. Can't wait for his book to come out, whenever it does.
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And he was played out wide because he wasn't good enough in front of goal to knock rvp or Rooney from the position. It's not unfair because welbeck had his chances and failed to capitalise on them. I think it's simply welbeck wanted to play centrally, he was never going to knock rvp or Rooney out (plus emergence of falcao) and I think lvg was more likely to give Wilson chances in those positions to mature him as a footballer rather than give them to welbeck.
RVP and Rooney have both been poor for a while now. And if welbeck has not lived up to the standards of RVP and Rooney, my god Valencia young fletcher fellaini Anderson should be booted out the door
I do not know what standards VG is on about with RVP and Rooney, has both look past their best
'No way you're getting Welbz, Jimmie. Just do one'.
£28M for Welbeck and £16M for Lukaku is more like it.
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