Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player

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I enjoyed this quote from a mirror article:
Arsenal got a terrific deal done on Danny Welbeck because he is young, English, has got pace and power and, at £16m, looks a very good signing.
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No idea on Welbecks actual footballing ability...no problem just use the black footballer stereotype.
 
Carl said:
Find that very hard to believe. If true then why was Welbeck the one continually used from the bench?
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Because we hadn't signed Falcao yet and Wilson was with the youth setup? Wilson had more of an impact in the game versus MK Dons too...
 
Is anyone able to copy and paste that Ducker article?
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Because we hadn't signed Falcao yet and Wilson was with the youth setup? Wilson had more of an impact in the game versus MK Dons too...
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The Burnley game followed the MK Dons game and Welbeck was the one used from the bench then too.
 
Earthquake said:
To be fair, when asked his best features, Welbeck instantly said pace and power in that interview.

Certainly ain't finishing.....
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Yeah to be fair Welbeck is one of the ones who does fit that stereotype...but, it still tickled me they were making the point that he's a terrific signing for 16m by using no points about his footballing ability.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Apparently not.

I've been wondering how big a role Giggs has played in rating the various options?

Surely LvG isn't making definitive judgements based on such a short time working with the squad? Would be worried, if so.
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A big one, otherwise Valencia wouldn't have gotten the extension he got at the WC.

The big problem with him is that once your in his bad books, it's tough to get out of it, as he thinks that nobody in the world knows more about football than him and that his philosophy is the best in the world. Sometimes he's right on the money (told 17 year old as DM playing Alaba he'll become a world class LB) but he makes mistakes too, mostly in the transfer market tbh.

I think Welbeck will end up as one of those mistakes. Just too much talent for him to fail.
 
If mistakes were made with Welbeck, and I believe they were, then we're already past the two-year stage. Now it's a question of how much you want to invest in a nearly 24, damaged product.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Wrong thread for it but I'd love to see a really detailed breakdown of individual stats (including passing) for Rooney vs RvP as centre forwards and Rooney vs Mata/Kagawa as number 10s.

Wouldn't be surprised to see him out-perform all of them, in both positions, yet we're seeing threads about how badly we cocked up not selling him. Go figure.
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Hardly a surprise given how often he is played when he is out of form and how often the ball is passed to him compared to others who get dropped/are played out of position/ hardly receive the ball.

Edit- The latest chart that RS posted in particular highlights this.
 
Anderson18 said:
A big one, otherwise Valencia wouldn't have gotten the extension he got at the WC.

The big problem with him is that once your in his bad books, it's tough to get out of it, as he thinks that nobody in the world knows more about football than him and that his philosophy is the best in the world. Sometimes he's right on the money (told 17 year old as DM playing Alaba he'll become a world class LB) but he makes mistakes too, mostly in the transfer market tbh.

I think Welbeck will end up as one of those mistakes. Just too much talent for him to fail.
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Why are people dealing in extremes? Is it not more likely that LvG thought Welbeck isn't good enough to be a regular starter, rather than not being good enough at all? That, plus Welbeck himself not being happy to be 3rd+ choice, was it not an understandable decision to let him go?
 
RedSky said:
@Pogue Mahone

Bit more depth to these now. Reduced it down to per game figures to give a better context.

13-14_united_strikers_cf_02.jpg
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Are these just for last season? If possible, can you do the same since RVP joined the club i.e. two seasons for all?
 
Amir said:
If mistakes were made with Welbeck, and I believe they were, then we're already past the two-year stage. Now it's a question of how much you want to invest in a nearly 24, damaged product.
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This is a much more rational way of looking at things. Add in the wishes of said player, who himself doesn't want to stay 3rd choice anymore and I think its a sensible call that was made in the end. Best call for everyone involved.
 
MJJ said:
Hardly a surprise given how often he is played when he is out of form and how often the ball is passed to him compared to others who get dropped/are played out of position/ hardly receive the ball.

Edit- The latest chart that RS posted in particular highlights this.
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How does the bold make it less impressive? It's not by chance that he's available to receive the ball.
 
MJJ said:
Are these just for last season? If possible, can you do the same since RVP joined the club i.e. two seasons for all?
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That would take about 2 hours. :lol:

It's a pretty long process to go through annoyingly. I have to find the match thread for each game on whoscored, then click 2 tabs to find all the data just for that match.
 
RedSky said:
That would take about 2 hours. :lol:
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:lol: Dont bother then.

Scrumpet said:
How does the bold make it less impressive? It's not by chance that he's available to receive the ball.
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He receives the ball not due to his off the ball movement but because our attacking tactic under moyes was to pass the ball to either rooney who would pass it to the wings or pass it to the wings. It makes it less impressive as he has more chances to register shots on goals,key passes,etc compared to others who are starved of service more often than not.

A more valid comparision will be to look at rooney's stats and compare it to the stats of talisman on others team am pretty sure his will be worse off.
 
Looking at those stats we lost quite a player, probably even better stats than Messi and Ronaldo. We will regret selling this guy when he inevitably wins the Bal'lon d'Or.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Why are people dealing in extremes? Is it not more likely that LvG thought Welbeck isn't good enough to be a regular starter, rather than not being good enough at all? That, plus Welbeck himself not being happy to be 3rd+ choice, was it not an understandable decision to let him go?
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This. A thousand times this.

Anyway, do people honestly believe we can't buy a player better than Welbeck in a few seasons' time to replace our "old" strikers and who, you know, can actually finish? Welbeck wasn't going to get a look in at United with three arguably world class strikers ahead of him and he wasn't happy with that so off he went.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Why are people dealing in extremes? Is it not more likely that LvG thought Welbeck isn't good enough to be a regular starter, rather than not being good enough at all? That, plus Welbeck himself not being happy to be 3rd+ choice, was it not an understandable decision to let him go?
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Actually LvG always thinks in the long term, as he tells the media maybe too often himself, if he lets you go, that's because he doesn't think you'll be a key player in the near future. He would've been 5th choice which makes it completely understandable to let him go. But I've seen LvG vetoing deals, because he had trust in the players he had at his disposal at Bayern Munich, so if he rated Welbeck we wouldn't have gotten Falcao.

For me it's not an extreme, thinking that Welbeck is too talented to fail. From what I've seen from him he has all the tools to be a very good - world class CF, but it simply didn't make click yet and with the kind of football United have been playing for the last few years it's not a big suprise.
 
Anderson18 said:
Actually LvG always thinks in the long term, as he tells the media maybe too often himself, if he lets you go, that's because he doesn't think you'll be a key player in the near future. He would've been 5th choice which makes it completely understandable to let him go. But I've seen LvG vetoing deals, because he had trust in the players he had at his disposal at Bayern Munich, so if he rated Welbeck we wouldn't have gotten Falcao.

For me it's not an extreme, thinking that Welbeck is too talented to fail. From what I've seen from him he has all the tools to be a very good - world class CF, but it simply didn't make click yet and with the kind of football United have been playing for the last few years it's not a big suprise.
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I'm not saying it is extreme to say that he is too talented to fail. The extremes I was thinking about were: Welbeck has been rated as shite by LvG even though Welbeck is actually world class. Its much much more likely that he is somewhere in between and LvG wouldn't mind keeping him here, albeit with a squad role and squad priority not matching Welbeck's ambition. That coupled with the players desire to leave: Off you go son.

I actually admire Welbeck's ambition in all of this, he's probably estimated and rated himself correctly.
 
Señor said:
This. A thousand times this.

Anyway, do people honestly believe we can't buy a player better than Welbeck in a few seasons' time to replace our "old" strikers and who, you know, can actually finish? Welbeck wasn't going to get a look in at United with three arguably world class strikers ahead of him and he wasn't happy with that so off he went.
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Agreed. I suppose people are too caught up in the sentimentality of it all. Luckily it will all be (likely) forgotten when the team starts winning again and Falcao starts banging them in. There's also this young lad Wilson, who I believe has taken Welbeck's spot anyway, not Falcao.
 
Radamel FalCinao said:
Jaysus, that's bad. Although he did play out of position a lot.

My worry is that he'll find his feet up front consistently, though, but it could easily go the other way either.

I am hoping that LvG knows best here and has the knowledge to see he'll never be a prolific striker.
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Was Thierry Henry out of position on the left? Why has Rooney's far superior return not got the same caveat. Welbeck being played out of position is not a vliad excuse for his poor return and lack of effectiveness in my opinion. He was still an attacker. It's like the Kagawa argument, for me the lack of felxibility is a flaw, not something the club should bend over backwards to accomodate. Yet again I will say, he played 142 senior games (RVN played 150 for us), he had time. Lots of it.
 
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MJJ said:
He receives the ball not due to his off the ball movement but because our attacking tactic under moyes was to pass the ball to either rooney who would pass it to the wings or pass it to the wings. It makes it less impressive as he has more chances to register shots on goals,key passes,etc compared to others who are starved of service more often than not.

A more valid comparision will be to look at rooney's stats and compare it to the stats of talisman on others team am pretty sure his will be worse off.
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That makes no sense at all. One of those charts shows data taken from games when both players were playing as CF. Do you seriously think our tactics were to pass the ball to Rooney more often when he was playing as a CF then we do when RvP is playing the same position? That would be bizarre.
 
moses said:
Was Thierry Henry out of position on the left? Why has Ronney's far superior return not got the same caveat. Welbeck being played out of position is not a vliad excuse for his poor return and lack of effectiveness in my opinion. He was still an attacker. It's like the Kagawa argument, for me the lack of felxibility is a flaw, not something the club should bend over backwards to accomodate. Yet again I will say, he played 142 senior games (RVN played 150 for us), he had time. Lots of it.
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Henry never played as a winger. Not at Arsenal anyway. He did at Juve and got 3 goals in 19 games. You can't judge the performance of wingers purely on the basis of how many goals they score. That's incredibly harsh. Rooney's played a few games on the wing and never once scored, as far as I can remember.

Here are some stats comparing all our strikers, looking only at games they played as centre-forward.

RedSky said:
@Pogue Mahone

Bit more depth to these now. Reduced it down to per game figures to give a better context.

13-14_united_strikers_cf_02.jpg
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Watching him having interviews as an Arsenal player is bloody weird...hard to believe.

Talking about how he felt on transfer deadline day! very strange all round.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That makes no sense at all. One of those charts shows data taken from games when both players were playing as CF. Do you seriously think our tactics were to pass the ball to Rooney more often when he was playing as a CF then we do when RvP is playing the same position? That would be bizarre.
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Obviously yes, if you watch both of them play you would know that rooney drops deep more often and obviously spends more time on the ball compared to RVP who stays up. Now either both of them ignore managers instruction or thats our tactic.

You can compare this to the LW/RW situation, am pretty sure we pass the ball to our right winger more often compared to the one on the left in the past few years.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Playing CL and living in London for a season where he would be undisputed #1 striker? Arsenal could have made a stronger case for mine.

As much as I would have loved him to join us you just know Wenger was never going to spend 20 million for a player for one season. Though playing with Di Maria and RVP would be a huge attraction (as would playing for MUFC itself), I think playing in the CL with Ozil and Sanchez etc would be an equal attraction at least.
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I don't think ANYONE should spend 20 million on any player for one season. *Insert kermit meme here*
 
MDFC Manager said:
Why are people dealing in extremes? Is it not more likely that LvG thought Welbeck isn't good enough to be a regular starter, rather than not being good enough at all? That, plus Welbeck himself not being happy to be 3rd+ choice, was it not an understandable decision to let him go?
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I agree with this, it really is as simple as that.

He wasnt going to get the game time HE wants, he would of got some, he isnt going to start ahead of Rooney and RVP, because at the moment he isnt good enough and we need strikers who can take the one or two game turning chances you might get in a match that he simply isn't capable of converting.

He can talk about through balls and pace and power and all that guff, teams know how to play Arsenal and thats not to go at them with an expansive style leaving space in behind, but to hit them from set pieces and put them under pressure.
If he is dreaming of a future of glorious through balls with 35 yards of open turf between in and the keeper 7 or 8 times every match then he hasnt watched Arsenal that much.
 
MJJ said:
Obviously yes, if you watch both of them play you would know that rooney drops deep more often and obviously spends more time on the ball compared to RVP who stays up. Now either both of them ignore managers instruction or thats our tactic.

You can compare this to the LW/RW situation, am pretty sure we pass the ball to our right winger more often compared to the one on the left in the past few years.
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If Rooney's stats are inflated by dropping deep, why is he also scoring more goals/game?

You're trying to have your cake and eat it here.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Henry never played as a winger. Not at Arsenal anyway. He did at Juve and got 3 goals in 19 games. You can't judge the performance of wingers purely on the basis of how many goals they score. That's incredibly harsh. Rooney's played a few games on the wing and never once scored, as far as I can remember.

Here are some stats comparing all our strikers, looking only at games they played as centre-forward.
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Henry played out wide for France with Guivarch up front and was the main threat. I'm just trying to say that playing on the wing doesn't mitigate the poor return for me, and it's 1 in 4 over 142 games, it's a good spread. I'm really only using the stats because they totally reflect what I saw with my own eyes. I really only saw him as a potential top player in that one game against Bayern, and that has the caveat of him missing a chance, which he really shouldn't have with the amount of quality involvement he had in that game. Yes everyone misses chances when not in form, but that was the best I've seen him play. I don't wish the lad anything but luck, but for me, 16m for a lad who in my eyes will be our 3rd striker at best is not a disaster.

Those stats say he is better than RVP which is not true. SS is second striker? That's a centre forward? When we play 2 up top they dovetail? Also when he plays up front RVP plays a lot in the inside right and wider channel. The bottom line for me is that Welbeck always played in attack. If he is hamstrung outside the CF channel then that means he's not good enough for the level of fluidity we need in attack.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
If Rooney's stats are inflated by dropping deep, why is he also scoring more goals/game?

You're trying to have your cake and eat it here.
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Because he spends more time on the ball? Kinda hard to score if you are dont have the ball.

He has twice as many touches as RVP and takes 25% shots more per game. Kinda obvious why he scores more goals/game.

Edit- Not to mention last year was probably RVP's worse season in ages, thats why I wanted stats for the last two seasons instead.
 
moses said:
Henry played out wide for France with Guivarch up front and was there main threat. I'm just trying to say that playing on the wing doesn't mitigate the poor return for me, and it's 1 in 4 over 142 games, it's a good spread. I'm really only using the stats because they totally reflect what I saw with my own eyes. I really only saw him as a potential top player in that one game against Bayern, and that has the caveat of him missing a chance, which he really shouldn't have with the amount of quality involvement he had in that game. Yes everyone misses chances when not in form, but that was the best I've seen him play. I don't wish the lad anything but luck, but for me, 16m for a lad who in my eyes will be our 3rd striker at best is not a disaster.

Those stats say he is better than RVP which is not true. SS is second striker? That's a centre forward? When we play 2 up top they dovetail?
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SS is a number 10. CF is a number 9.

RvP's a better player than Welbeck. Nobody would deny that. Those stats are from last season alone, though. In that season - playing as a number 9 - Welbeck was probably the pick of the bunch. I think RvP had a poor season, disguised by a haul of goals that was inflated by set-pieces and penalty-kicks.

One season could be an aberration, of course. I'm just worried that they're trending in opposite direction, because of their respective ages. Tiime will tell if I'm right to be worried.
 
MJJ said:
Because he spends more time on the ball? Kinda hard to score if you are dont have the ball.
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Oh come on. This is getting silly now. He scores more goals because he drops deep to get on the ball then (presumably) marauds back upfield, dribbling past all the defenders and smacks it in the net. Must be some player.

Edit- Not to mention last year was probably RVP's worse season in ages, thats why I wanted stats for the last two seasons instead.
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This is important. Last season might just be an aberration.
 
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