All true. But I always felt what he needed was a consistent run of games as striker. He actually did well for us too when he got a run there last season. Chose to move to Arsenal now where again he cannot find games there. Should have taken a step down and moved to a club that'd play him there every game.
Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player
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All true. But I always felt what he needed was a consistent run of games as striker. He actually did well for us too when he got a run there last season. Chose to move to Arsenal now where again he cannot find games there. Should have taken a step down and moved to a club that'd play him there every game.
I feel for you. I wasn't as criticizing as you for Welbeck, but always said that he isn't good enough currently and never was sure thta he was going to make on United (become anything more than a squad player). Always said that he is massively overrated here for being an academy player (same was for Cleverley, until everybody - on the second half of last season - decided that he's shit
And when we sold him and signed Falcao, I was happy for signing one of the best strikers in the world.
With Giroud's injury, he had enough games to cement his place and finally earn the playing time he so coveted as a striker. Arsenal was the perfect club for him to score consistently and the context was favorable but if he hasn't done it there I don't know if he could do it at a lower club.
I'm talking about a club where he'd be the striker for a season or thereabouts without being moved about. He got at Arsenal what he got here at teh time of RVPs and Rooney's injury, 7-8 games as striker at a new club.
I get you and yeah a lower level club would be best suited to him as their main striker with him being secure about his playing time.
But he is playing quite a bit, he's started games with Sanchez and Giroud. All three interchange positions.
Starting games as a striker for a prolonged period of time.
The luxury you are demanding for him is one which few teams can afford, he's had around 15 starts as a striker at Arsenal and hasn't done the business, anything longer than that would be suicide. Even at smaller sides where he won't be under pressure he would get fewer goal scoring opportunities and that too would be used as an excuse to explain away his lack of productivity. He has the tools to reach the next stage and it's up to him to outgrow the issues that are holding him back not always clamouring for a set of favourable circumstances, that is never going to happen.
Yup. Agree with all of this.
I was talking of what would have been better for his development as a striker once he decided that's where he wanted to play. He's essentially swapped United for an inferior team while being in the same situation regarding where he plays. Moving a notch lower and playing as the striker every game would have been better for him long term. I doubt he or anyone else fails to recognize the deficiencies that are there
Composure is something you can develop. There are plenty of things you can't, but that's the most obvious one that you can.
I disagree. The best forwards are natural goal scorers and it's usually evident from a young age.
Some on here will always maintain that he's going to develop into a great player. I see nothing to suggest that's the case. The bits lacking in his game have always been lacking and haven't improved to the required level over numerous seasons.
Fact is he isn't even Arsenal's best forward and at some stage they will buy a big name to lead the line. Then it's back out wide - if he even gets a regular game.
Just off the top of my head, Ronaldo and Henry were poor finishers in their early years.
How early though? By the time they were Welbeck's age, Ronaldo had scored - on his best season - 42 goals, while Henry had scored 26. Both of them had two seasons when they scored more than 20 goals by then.
Drogba, then.
And in any case, you can't compare players' ages linearly. Some start early, some retire late, some peak at 23, etc. This is just a general point not aimed at you, but I find it annoying when posters compare players and talk about how one is a year or 2 older, as though that means anything.
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The problem though is that people often cite rare examples of players who suddenly blossom and develop into world class players and assume the players in question (Welbeck here), will do it because others do it. I remember people on here used to argue that because Xavi had blossomed at a later age, there was a good chance Anderson would do the same. Occasionally it'll happen, but for every player who has a sudden upturn in performance and becomes world class in an instant, you'll get lots of players who don't.
Why were you taking those examples than. By that age, both of them were already better than Welbeck will ever be (in fact Ronaldo had already a Ballon D'Or).
It is also quite annoying when people (not directed at you) find extreme cases and then predict that the player will blossom late because so did Henry (on Welbeck case) or Xavi (on Cleverley's case). Regardless that even if you make the comparison, both of them by that age were miles better than Welbeck/Cleverley. It is just ignoring everything bar a tiny subset and then making the assumption based on it.
It's certainly the exception and not the rule. People banking on Welbeck suddenly developing into a world-beater based on a tiny fraction of extreme cases are seriously clutching at straws.
What?!? I never mentioned ages. I was only talking about young players. The whole point was that you can't compare two players by looking at their ages as numbers. Rather, you need to look a much wider picture. I don't even...
Look at the exchange of messages between me and RedRover. It was about his assertion that composure is something you're either born with or not. Nothing to do with Welbeck becoming world class. Christ...
24 isn't a young player though. This is his fifth year on EPL.
Generally it is. There are some rare cases, when players improve composure but there are good explanations for it. You mentioned Drogba, but Drogba didn't have any football education like Welbeck. He started playing after he was 15 years old, and even there was for some local sides. Welbeck got educated from Man United since he was 7. So the Drogba - Welbeck comparison doesn't really work IMO.
Well said! I really hate that argument where people look for late bloomers and use it as a defense for underperforming players. At the end of the day people love to tell us how Drogba/Ronaldo/Xavi/Kaka/Zidane were all late bloomers and they all turned out to be great BUT all players by 24 had shown enough to warrant people not writing them off. In the case of Drogba, Zidane and Xavi sure they improved a lot post 24 but their benchmark was still a lot higher than anything i've seen from Welbeck or Cleverley
That and Sturridge did it! seem to be the most popular arguments.
24 is just a number. That's the whole point I'm making. Welbeck had a late growth spurt and only just stopped growing a couple of years ago. Of course his composure is going to be affected if he's just gone from being a whippet with a low centre of gravity to a rangy powehouse. If you want to see how silly the whole age comparison thing is, just look at Rooney. He was a fully grown man at 15, whereas Welbeck has barely just got there.
Danny's got the sort of physique that will stand him in good stead well into his 30s. If you really want to assign him number, talk about him being 24-going-on-21. His composure will improve. It can't not do so.
I've not read anyone say that Welbeck will be world class. Some nice straw men being built in the last couple of pages.
He's back!
That's like saying "you're only as young as you feel". Absolute bollocks. He's not a young player.
Well, to an extent. He might continue to improve in later age, but I'd certainly be a lot more confident of the idea that Welbeck will suddenly become world class if he was 19, as opposed to 24. In football, while different players develop at different times, age isn't just a number to be honest. I agree with much of what you're saying and think he'll improve, but I think he'll just be a very good player at best who's either a squad player for a top club, or perhaps a main striker for a Spurs/Everton type team.
You seem excited.
Whilst what you are saying is right, the choruses by the media mandarins was that his game was fine, all he needed was a chance and 'soulless' United denied him that, an assertion he actively encouraged. Just as we knew and the rest of the country is finding out, he needs more than just a sustained run upfront to get going. Much more.
He probably is. It's the sad reality around here.
And how quickly did they improve? It didn't take 5 or 6 years. By Welbeck's age Ronaldo was one of the best players in the world.
Very few players suddenly improve to a huge degree. Henry had been played as a winger but pretty much as soon as Wenger put him upfront he looked a class act.
The reality is that for every Henry there are loads of players who never kick on. I can't see what people see in him to think he will. LVG didn't see anything. Fergie bought RVP rather than have him lead the line.
He's a decent player and a hard worker. Fair play to him. I don't think he'll ever be prolific enough to be a top striker for a top side based on what I've seen.
Sorry what? This almost sounds like something a lot of those African players with fake passports would come out with.
Welbeck was 6 foot when he was 19, sure he did get taller around 21 it was hardly him going from 5 foot to 6 foot something
I genuinely don't get it. He's playing for a team rivalling us for the top 4 positions this year. We shouldn't be celebrating when we need Arsenal to drop points.
You're the only one talking about him becoming world class. But for some reason you don't want to compare him to world class players. Make your mind up.
Aren't you the one who mentioned examples like Henry being poor finishers? I assumed that since you were using said examples, you were asserting that you think Welbeck will develop into that sort of player at one point, which was what I disagreed with. Apologies if I got that one wrong.
Completely agree. It was worse earlier in the season when I saw things like "welbeeecckkk" in the PL Matchday Threads, from United fans. Arsenal are clearly a direct rival for a CL place and that sort or carry-on is pathetic, no matter what way you look at it.
It's not a contentious point unless you believe that everyone develops physically and mentally at the same rate. Or that they put miles on the clock at the same rate, for that matter.
Spot on, it's a fecking disgrace. This shall be my last post in this abomination of a thread.
Yes, I'm in a foul mood after the Spurs match..
I was responding to the point that you can't develop composure as you get older. I showed that you could. I never claimed that Welbeck will ever be as good as Henry. I'm too old to make those sorts of wild predictions. It's only Welbeck's detractors who have made that straw man.
What doesn consider a youn player. I always think that it is like U21 or U22 (i.e having no more than 2-3 years on the main team).
24 is the time when generally players are at their best (or near it). Especialy strikers who start declining by 30 or so.
You can improve obviously - a lot of players haven't reached their prime at 24, although are sometimes starting to get near to it.
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