Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player

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Cina said:
I would say you can't base it on anything, isn't that obvious? Until he plays up front for at least a full season you really can't say anything about his record. He had 29 goals in 142 games for us!
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Whilst playing all over the place - when he's had a run of games up front (that brief period last season, England, a few seasons ago when he was a starter) he's generally played well and scored. For me, there's enough there to draw conclusions that - playing consistantly up front = there is a good chance he will score goals.

There was also that stat the he had one of the best goals to minutes ratio in the league last season to consider.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Whilst playing all over the place - when he's had a run of games up front (that brief period last season, England, a few seasons ago when he was a starter) he's generally played well and scored. For me, there's enough there to draw conclusions that - playing consistantly up front = there is a good chance he will score goals.

There was also that stat the he had one of the best goals to minutes ratio in the league last season to consider.
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Has he though? Other than the 5 in 6 last year I can't recall many spells like that. If that was the case you'd really expect our three managers to have played him there more then, instead they were all far more interested in acquiring better strikers than him.

I want to see him play 30+ games up front before drawing conclusions on his goalscoring record, personally.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Whilst playing all over the place - when he's had a run of games up front (that brief period last season, England, a few seasons ago when he was a starter) he's generally played well and scored. For me, there's enough there to draw conclusions that - playing consistantly up front = there is a good chance he will score goals.

There was also that stat the he had one of the best goals to minutes ratio in the league last season to consider.
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This one:

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Granted, the proximity of Adebayor take the gloss of his achievements but still - taking his age into account - it does seem fecking madness to not find a way to hold onto a striker who just finished so high up that table.

Aged 23, Didier Drogba had a scoring rate of 0.25 goals per game, Cavani 0.38, Alessandro Del Piero 0.36, Teddy Sheringham 0.33, Karim Benzema 0.3, Ian Wright 0.24, Diego Forlan (at United) 0.24 and Dwight Yorke 0.16.

King Eric scored just 5 in 22 games at the same age as Danny last season fwiw.

EDIT: The above table is goals per 90. If we calculate it as goals per appearance, Welbeck would be at 0.36.
 
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ItsEssexRob said:
Right now Welbeck is proving himself superior to both RVP and Falcao, and players are being judged on paper alone right now. As soon as the latter two start playing as well as they can things change because obviously their peaks in their careers so far are way higher. It starts getting a bit odd when people are constantly saying X is so much better than Y despite Y outscoring them and putting in better performances.
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Right now in premier league:
Rooney: 3 goals (0.5/match) + 2 assist (0.33/match)
RVP: 2 goals (0.4/match) + 0 assist (0/match)
Falcao: 0 goals (0/match) + 2 assist (0.67/match)
Welbeck: 1 goal (0.2/match) + 1 assist (0.2/match)

Yes you can include CL goals for Welbeck but we are not in CL.
 
ivaldo said:
And yet still has a better goal record in CL than Welbeck.
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And what relevance does that have? I'm not comparing the player just pointing out how long it has been since he played in the CL. Which is a shame really because you want to see a player like him in the CL more often.

RedorDead21 said:
Every team in the PL is a rival! We could have sold him to Leicester and it would not have made much difference.
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The point he is trying to make is if Man Utd want to get back into the Top 4 there is very little chance that you will finish higher than Chelsea or Man City. So naturally you'll be looking to get ahead of either Arsenal or Liverpool and you've helped address a weakness in one of those sides. Right now Sanogo is injured as well leaving us with only Sanchez to play up top if we didn't have Welbeck. Farcical situation at club leaving it so late to buy a striker in.

I think though this is something fans feel more strongly about than people at the club. Welbeck had been at the club since he was 8 or 9 and had become surplus to requirements. Fans don't have a personal relationship with the guy but people within the club do. They probably felt it was the right thing to let him join who he wanted after all these years he has been at Man Utd. We offered what other clubs were prepared to pay so they weren't gonna stand in his way.
 
JazzG said:
And what relevance does that have? I'm not comparing the player just pointing out how long it has been since he played in the CL. Which is a shame really because you want to see a player like him in the CL more often.



The point he is trying to make is if Man Utd want to get back into the Top 4 there is very little chance that you will finish higher than Chelsea or Man City. So naturally you'll be looking to get ahead of either Arsenal or Liverpool and you've helped address a weakness in one of those sides. Right now Sanogo is injured as well leaving us with only Sanchez to play up top if we didn't have Welbeck. Farcical situation at club leaving it so late to buy a striker in.

I think though this is something fans feel more strongly about than people at the club. Welbeck had been at the club since he was 8 or 9 and had become surplus to requirements. Fans don't have a personal relationship with the guy but people within the club do. They probably felt it was the right thing to let him join who he wanted after all these years he has been at Man Utd. We offered what other clubs were prepared to pay so they weren't gonna stand in his way.
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It has about as much relevance as bringing up Falcao's last appearance in the CL in the Welbeck thread, which is exactly what you did?
 
JazzG said:
The point he is trying to make is if Man Utd want to get back into the Top 4 there is very little chance that you will finish higher than Chelsea or Man City. So naturally you'll be looking to get ahead of either Arsenal or Liverpool and you've helped address a weakness in one of those sides. Right now Sanogo is injured as well leaving us with only Sanchez to play up top if we didn't have Welbeck. Farcical situation at club leaving it so late to buy a striker in.

I think though this is something fans feel more strongly about than people at the club. Welbeck had been at the club since he was 8 or 9 and had become surplus to requirements. Fans don't have a personal relationship with the guy but people within the club do. They probably felt it was the right thing to let him join who he wanted after all these years he has been at Man Utd. We offered what other clubs were prepared to pay so they weren't gonna stand in his way.
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Exactly. Just as well United jumped in to save the day, right?
 
Jerch said:
Right now in premier league:
Rooney: 3 goals (0.5/match) + 2 assist (0.33/match)
RVP: 2 goals (0.4/match) + 0 assist (0/match)
Falcao: 0 goals (0/match) + 2 assist (0.67/match)
Welbeck: 1 goal (0.2/match) + 1 assist (0.2/match)

Yes you can include CL goals for Welbeck but we are not in CL.
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I was including the CL its silly to just ignore games just because United arent in that competition.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Ridiculous he wasn't rated higher while still at United and beyond fecking stupid to sell him to Arsenal. One big clusterfeck that will haunt us for years.

And some people are actually happy about him doing so well for Arsenal?

'Kin weirdos...
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I think its more that some of those who rate Welbeck want him to put egg on the faces of those who couldnt see the quality that was staring them in the face (and still deny it)
 
Jerch said:
Welbeck never was and never will be top striker. On the deadline day Rene said he will never be a player who wil stor 20+ goals a season but he is very good in other things. Rene who coached him for a long time. His buildup play is very good and all that but as a striker he lacks something you just can't learn. He will be 24 next month.
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Only time will tell

I'd take anything Rene says with a pinch of salt. Hes full of b/s since he got left United
 
Even if Welbeck doesn't improve with them, it will remain a farcical decision from us simply bcause we handed one of our main rivals for fourth a lifeline. We gave them a potentially top quality striker at the end of deadline day when otherwise they'd be going into games with just Sanchez as a 'striker'. We should have told Arsenal to look elsewhere like they did with us and Vermalen and not kindly offered to solve a pretty substantial problem.
 
Jerch said:
Well i wanted to prove our strikers are better and used stats that helps me and you did the same.
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You can prove your strikers are better overall by just looking at their previous.
 
golden_blunder said:
I think its more that some of those who rate Welbeck want him to put egg on the faces of those who couldnt see the quality that was staring them in the face (and still deny it)
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I'm as argumentative as the next man but I can't get my head round being so pleased at being proved right that you'd actually enjoy watching Welbeck bail Arsenal out of a potentially tricky first few months of the season.
 
shaggy said:
Even if Welbeck doesn't improve with them, it will remain a farcical decision from us simply bcause we handed one of our main rivals for fourth a lifeline. We gave them a potentially top quality striker at the end of deadline day when otherwise they'd be going into games with just Sanchez as a 'striker'. We should have told Arsenal to look elsewhere like they did with us and Vermalen and not kindly offered to solve a pretty substantial problem.
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Aye, that sticks in the craw too.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
You can prove your strikers are better overall by just looking at their previous.
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True. But you said right now so i have to pick some recent stats.
shaggy said:
Even if Welbeck doesn't improve with them, it will remain a farcical decision from us simply bcause we handed one of our main rivals for fourth a lifeline. We gave them a potentially top quality striker at the end of deadline day when otherwise they'd be going into games with just Sanchez as a 'striker'. We should have told Arsenal to look elsewhere like they did with us and Vermalen and not kindly offered to solve a pretty substantial problem.
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About Welbeck transfer. For me we have done the right thing to sell Welbeck. He would not get a playing time and we would just waste his talent. And he clearly didn't wanted a transfer to one of the lover table club and rightly so. The transfer to Arsenal was the best option for all. I think clubs should do this more but some rather waste talent of their players than sell them to a rival club. it's a pity.

We gave him the opportunity to prove himself in the very good club and is up to him now. I wish him to do well (not to well ofcourse) and if the player who is not good enough for us will be the reason Arsenal will be better than us then we need to look at ourselves and not question the transfer. It is up to our players to prove how good are they.
 
shaggy said:
Even if Welbeck doesn't improve with them, it will remain a farcical decision from us simply bcause we handed one of our main rivals for fourth a lifeline. We gave them a potentially top quality striker at the end of deadline day when otherwise they'd be going into games with just Sanchez as a 'striker'. We should have told Arsenal to look elsewhere like they did with us and Vermalen and not kindly offered to solve a pretty substantial problem.
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100% agree.
 
shaggy said:
Even if Welbeck doesn't improve with them, it will remain a farcical decision from us simply bcause we handed one of our main rivals for fourth a lifeline. We gave them a potentially top quality striker at the end of deadline day when otherwise they'd be going into games with just Sanchez as a 'striker'. We should have told Arsenal to look elsewhere like they did with us and Vermalen and not kindly offered to solve a pretty substantial problem.
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As much as people want to point the finger at the club, i think it was more down to Welbeck where he ended up. The club wanted to loan him out, it was Welbeck who pushed for a permanent transfer and to Arsenal aswell. The difference with Vermaelen is he had a better alternative he was WILLING to go to in Barcelona, Welbeck's alternatives were Spurs and Sunderland, and he refused to go there which is fair enough i can understand his decision to chose Arsenal over them.

It's very difficult to stop players moving clubs when their heart is set on it and i guess it's only fair, they are individuals with their own ambitions and deserve that right, it's then upto them whether they care or not to join a rival.

So all in all we did the right thing in respecting the players wishes.
 
kopviolator said:
Yes but so what? It's still an achievement by Danny which is being downplayed. I read somewhere that it's the sixth or seventh hat trick scored by an english player in the CL. It's not somehting that's happening every other week.
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Yes, but not many English forwards play in the Champions League, I'm not saying it's not an achievement, scoring a hat trick in any game is.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
It's incredible really how a player who has a decent scoring record when consistantly played as a striker, is now scoring goals when consistantly played as a striker.

I mean, who could possibly have seen this coming?
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But but it was only Gala (whereas our strikers have so far scored against no lesser teams than RM and Barca considering the tough start we've had)

And we'll see if he can score against top teams (yeah remember all the goals our two world class strikers scored against top teams last season or even all those goals Suarez scored against top teams last season?)

And Arsenal create so many chances anyway (yep, as if our cheaply assembled team consisting of players like Di Maria, Herrera, Mata, Rooney, Falcao, RvP hardly create anything)

I am sure ppl weren't on record reminding everyone here that it was only QPR while celebrating Di Maria's first goal. I am also sure ppl will go crazy once Falcao scores no matter against who. And rightly so. But here Welbeck scores a hattrick to win Arsenal their first 3 points in the CL and ppl strangely find ways to play his achievements down.
I am wondering if Atletico fans are doing similar stuff regarding Costa or Barca fans regarding Fabregas or Sanchez. Somehow I doubt it!
 
Also Gervinho?
 
This brings back memories of Owen's hattrick and how many wanted him to start after that ...
 
Jerch said:
Ibrahimovic was star for Ajax and signed for Juve at 22.
Diego Costa was playing very good with Falcao upfront 2 seasons ago at the age of 23 and was a star at the age of 24 - in 2011-12 he had a serious knee injury which prevented him to prove himself.
Llorente for me is not a top striker.
Henry was very good for Monaco since 18, at the age of 22 he moved to Juventus, Juventus fecked up but they paid more than £10M at that time and sold him for £11M to Arsenal. He wasn't some unknown player.

Welbeck never was and never will be top striker. On the deadline day Rene said he will never be a player who wil stor 20+ goals a season but he is very good in other things. Rene who coached him for a long time. His buildup play is very good and all that but as a striker he lacks something you just can't learn. He will be 24 next month.
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They were stars much smaller clubs, you don't know how Welbeck would have done in such surroundings. Also they were nowhere near as productive as you'd need a top striker to be. Ibra didn't score 20 goals in the league before well into his 20's and didn't break 30 in a season before his 2nd season for Milan. Henry around scored around 1 in 5 for Monaco before Juve did misuse him, kind of like we have with Welbeck? Costa didn't have a particularly impressive scorin record but really started showing what he could do when on loan to Rayo where he scored like 11 in half a season after coming back from a serious injury. Llorente was pretty great the around the time we met them in the EL and alot of fans wanted us to go after him at the time. My point is that a some players need time and experience before they start scoring on a regular basis, it is not a completely innate ability. Welbecks development has suffered alot because he's come through the youth-system at a time where he had to compete with the likes of Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Berbatov and Van Persie, all WC talents in their primes. I doubt that any of the forementioned players could've broken through with odds like that stacked against them.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What % did he improve Arshavin by, out of interest?

Interestingly, Gervinho seems to have improved by at least 25% since he escaped Wenger's clammy grasp.
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Add Reyes, Santos, Jeffers, Senderos, Van Bronckhorst, Baptista to name but a few to the list.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What % did he improve Arshavin by, out of interest?

Interestingly, Gervinho seems to have improved by at least 25% since he escaped Wenger's clammy grasp.
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I said 'typically', there are always counterexamples. And arguably he did improve Arshavin, who was sensational until he gave up and couldn't be arsed to stay fit. Failures of mentality will always be with us, see numerous examples from Birtles to Anderson.
 
Oh jeez, we are still talking about Welbeck. Good for him he got a CL treble but all this nonsense about how Wenger has transformed him makes me laugh. He is the only striker in that team so should be scoring to be fair. Three United managers have not found him good enough to start for us as a centre forward that's the simple fact of it. Reading some twitter post yesterday saying that he has scored more goals than RvP and Falcao put together and also comparisons about Henry. Same fans calling him average when he played for us.
How fickle are fans, its ridiculous!
 
Getsme said:
Add Reyes, Santos, Jeffers, Senderos, Van Bronckhorst, Baptista to name but a few to the list.
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Those players just weren't very good to begin with but Wenger still helped their career.

Well he turned Senderos into a member of a defensive unit that kept 6 consecutive clean sheets in the CL knock out stages. Arshavin had some of his most productive seasons in an Arsenal shirt (4 goals at Anfield) until he began to decline. Reyes became a better player, Van Bronckhorst was replaced by Ashley Cole and the rest were never any good to begin with.

He has a lot of faults but Wenger has always been able to bring the best out of players who are willing to be the best, can't help someone who doesn't want to help himself.
 
JSArsenal said:
Those players just weren't very good to begin with but Wenger still helped their career.

Well he turned Senderos into a member of a defensive unit that kept 6 consecutive clean sheets in the CL knock out stages. Arshavin had some of his most productive seasons in an Arsenal shirt (4 goals at Anfield) until he began to decline. Reyes became a better player, Van Bronckhorst was replaced by Ashley Cole and the rest were never any good to begin with.

He has a lot of faults but Wenger has always been able to bring the best out of players who are willing to be the best, can't help someone who doesn't want to help himself.
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Stopped reading after the bolded bit.
 
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