Played in the hole and shunted out on the wing in the big games from memory once Ronnie got world class. Thinking back when RvN was in the team. He started to get thrown about position wise year 3 into his career no?
Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player
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Played in the hole and shunted out on the wing in the big games from memory once Ronnie got world class. Thinking back when RvN was in the team. He started to get thrown about position wise year 3 into his career no?
Cause it doesn't suit their arguments.
Rooney was bought for 30m Revan and played in his preferred position for much of his early career at United. Danny was a youth product who was continually loaned out and then when he did get his chance at United often played out of position on the left.
I actually blame Sir Alex when it comes to our young players. Too many of our young players were played out of position to give them experience. Jones/Smalling are awful RB's, we all know this yet they were played out there rather than at CB. I think it's actually harmed their development not helped and I think it's the same case for Danny.
Last season highlights this with Danny in particular with his drastic change of form when played as a wide forward and when played as a CF. It becomes pretty clear which position he's good at and which position he isn't. 1 win in 10 games as a wide forward... 0 goals scored! You don't need to be an expert in football management to work out that he's rubbish at it.
I think that SAF has some share of blame (especially for Jones and Smalling) but not from Welbeck. SAF was always a very attacking manager who wanted a lot of goals and depended on individual players. Welbeck wasn't (and wasn't going to be on short-term at least) a 30 goal/season striker, which is what SAF needed. So, it was either play him on other positions (like a wide forward or at times No.10) or sell him. Still, I think that Welbeck should have done better. Not playing on his favorite positions doesn't mean that he doesn't have the right to score. Something that Welbeck gave his best to convince us.
He didn't really get his chance as our main striker until Ronaldo left. He was always playing second fiddle to someone in the team until that prolific 09/10 season. Definitely not to the extent Welbeck has but Rooney is definitely a poor comparison to use because he generally delivered good stats for us regardless of where he was playing and who he was having to support.
And, you know, Rooney was clearly always going to become one of the best forwards in the world. I've never seen anything from Welbeck to suggest he'll do the same.
I swear, this place, I don't think I saw a single person on the entire forum suggest he'd be world-class when he was still here, suddenly he goes to Arse and scores his (first ever) hat-trick against a poor defense and now he's the fecking messiah.
What I am saying is that 13 games is a short sample to conclude anything. Both Ba and Cisse for Newcastle looked great players for that amount of games for example. Or Michu on Swansea.
I am not saying that I would want more a player who was great 4 seasons ago, but the thing is that Welbeck hasn't ever been great. He may be or not, but he hasn't been so far. And a game on UCL doesn't change that for me. If he scores 20 goals or so then I'll eat my words and say that I am wrong, but until then, Welbeck is still *** guy who missed a shitload of chances. Something that he has continued doing for Arsenal until 15 hours ago.
I find the Welbeck debate strange and a bit pointless. He nutmegs himself against Spurs, he's rubbish. He scores a hat-trick against Galatasaray and he's the next Henry. The truth is Welbeck is a good player, always has been, the question is whether or not he will be a great player. In truth, who knows? The fact is, however, as Van Gaal said he had a choice between great strikers and a possibly great striker and he chose the devil he knew. How many of us, as a manager needing to get things going asap, would have done differently? If someone says you can have Falcao do you really say no?
Welbeck was never going to become a world class striker at United regardless and I doubt he will scale such heights even at Arsenal. It wasn't the wisest move to sell to Arsenal but we put his preference over the club's interest. Perhaps a bit naive but I don't want to blame the club for that.
I'm also finding the LvG hate over this a bit baffling too, like it's some crime that he let Welbeck go.
This is a young player who SAF clearly didn't rate high enough to play lots of games and after his breakout season, decided to bring RvP in because he obviously wasn't showing enough, and subsequently relegated him to a defensive winger instead (when he actually played). A manager renowned for showing faith and giving loads of gametime to youngsters he believes are talented enough to become top players (Ronaldo, Rooney, recently Jones) obviously didn't think Welbeck fit that criteria and supposedly it reached a stage where he wanted to leave the club before Fergie retired.
Personally I'll trust Fergie and LvG's judgement on Welbeck, that clearly, he's not going to become a world-class player and isn't good enough for a club like Utd to meet his demands of constant first team football.
This is a young player who SAF clearly didn't rate high enough to play lots of games and after his breakout season, decided to bring RvP in because he obviously wasn't showing enough, and subsequently relegated him to a defensive winger instead (when he actually played). A manager renowned for showing faith and giving loads of gametime to youngsters he believes are talented enough to become top players (Ronaldo, Rooney, recently Jones) obviously didn't think Welbeck fit that criteria and supposedly it reached a stage where he wanted to leave the club before Fergie retired.
Personally I'll trust Fergie and LvG's judgement on Welbeck, that clearly, he's not going to become a world-class player and isn't good enough for a club like Utd to meet his demands of constant first team football.
Good balanced post.
My point is that Rooney was playing in what he deemed his natural position (the hole) and on a regular basis. Which is crucial for a young players development. He then got moved about when Sir Alex was trying to get the balance of the team right when Ronaldo exploded. This is all based on memory which may have been impaired during my college years
I can't fully remember either but yeah, mostly as a forward, he still did play second fiddle to RvP too until 06/07 (where he was fantastic at a younger age than Welbeck currently is). So why didn't he do the same thing with Welbeck then? Maybe because, well, he didn't think he was remotely as talented as Rooney?My point is that Rooney was playing in what he deemed his natural position (the hole) and on a regular basis. Which is crucial for a young players development. He then got moved about when Sir Alex was trying to get the balance of the team right when Ronaldo exploded. This is all based on memory which may have been impaired during my college years
As I said above, I'm willing to trust SAF's judgement on this one.
Or perhaps we didn't have the wealth of striking talent at the club when Rooney was bought as we did when Danny was coming through. Although Danny played a significant amount of games in 11/12, Sir Alex then changed his position to a winger in 12/13 (and he still played a significant amount of games). Sir Alex himself loved Danny, so I think that's a moot point really Cina.
I think the argument here is whether people think Danny was a striker capable of starting for United. Some don't think so and others do/did. Those that do/did are frustrated when he plays well for Arsenal and England and those that don't call him shit and a crap striker. I'm merely pointing out that Danny was a crap winger but actually a very decent striker at United. Something often overlooked because people tend to throw all of his performances into one neat box independent of where he was playing on the pitch.
So it doesn't really surprise me if he continues to score a number of goals for Arsenal. He did however struggle to score against quality opposition last season, so playing Chelsea will be a good indicator of his potential goal tally.
Who did we have other than Rooney himself when that happened? It was after his breakthrough season than we brought RvP in.
The Rooney comparison is a bit silly to be honest. Rooney was a really precocious talent but Danny's build meant he was always going to take a year or two longer to get control of his gangling limbs. Comparing their achievements at a similar age is unfair on Danny.
Not to mention that Rooney is, was and probably always will be a much better player. He's not setting the bar here though. The issue we need to ask is whether we might have been better holding onto Welbeck and shipping out the 31 year old RvP. Or at least holding onto both of them and let them compete for a place in the starting line-up on merit. By the end of this season it might be abundantly clear that RvP has had his day and Danny's time has come. Either that or Danny's impressive stats last season were an anomaly and we're better off rid. Worst case, we've fecked Arsenal over for the one and only season (hopefully!) where they are genuine rivals for the CL football we desperately need.
IMHO having Rooney, Welbeck, Wilson, Januzaj and Falcao looks like a perfectly balanced blend of strikers to start next season with. Nice mix of age and attributes. Throwing RvP in the mix instead of Welbeck and it all goes to shite, with us possibly needing to buy yet another striker next summer.
Not to mention that Rooney is, was and probably always will be a much better player. He's not setting the bar here though. The issue we need to ask is whether we might have been better holding onto Welbeck and shipping out the 31 year old RvP. Or at least holding onto both of them and let them compete for a place in the starting line-up on merit. By the end of this season it might be abundantly clear that RvP has had his day and Danny's time has come. Either that or Danny's impressive stats last season were an anomaly and we're better off rid. Worst case, we've fecked Arsenal over for the one and only season (hopefully!) where they are genuine rivals for the CL football we desperately need.
IMHO having Rooney, Welbeck, Wilson, Januzaj and Falcao looks like a perfectly balanced blend of strikers to start next season with. Nice mix of age and attributes. Throwing RvP in the mix instead of Welbeck and it all goes to shite, with us possibly needing to buy yet another striker next summer.
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If we do that it's likely to be a much better one than Welbeck though. I would be very surprised if Arsenal don't also go and spend big money on a much better striker than him at some point in the near future soon, too, if they have aspirations of winning big trophies, that is.
If you're talking about a club who wants to compete for the PL and CL (which, I assume, given the money we've spent and will likely continue to spend, is the plan), Welbeck isn't really the sort of striker you'd have on your team for 40 games a season (which is what he demanded), like you said above, someone like Rooney, a far superior player, is what you want.
As for this season, we didn't need him, but the problem is that Arsenal did, and that's the annoyance for me, we just shouldn't have sold him to them. I don't particularly give a bollock about the fact that he's an academy player and he should show respect or whatever.
How many who wanted to keep Welbeck have claimed that he will definitely become world class? Most ppl think he is a good player and has potential to become a very good/great player. If on top of that he actually becomes world class then so be it, but since when have we had world class players in all positions?
Hell our best working striking partnership over the years consisted of Cole and Yorke, neither of them world class. Indeed none of our treble winning strikers were world class, but they still were part of our most successful team ever as they complemented each other perfectly.
Hell our best working striking partnership over the years consisted of Cole and Yorke, neither of them world class. Indeed none of our treble winning strikers were world class, but they still were part of our most successful team ever as they complemented each other perfectly.
To be fair, there weren't many alternatives. Welbeck wouldn't go to Spurs and Hull and then we would be keeping a player that we weren't planning to use who also wanted to leave. I think that not selling to 'rivals' is very a Premier League way of thinking, and with LVG not being here for long, he didn't care for that.
Ultimatelly I think that Arsenal were going to get a place on UCL with or without Welbeck (Wenger has shown that he can always do that, even with worse squads than these), and actually if we miss on UCL we have only ourself to blame. We have a far better team than Liverpool and possibly a better team than Arsenal. Obviously, it isn't the finished article but it is more than enough to get the fourth place. In the end, we chose to not deny the chance to Welbeck (an academy player and a top professional) to play for a good team. Correct decision IMO, regardless the consequences.
I hope so, mate. As a pure striker, Wilson has shown (potentially) higher ceiling than Welbeck. Although in an ideal world, we have them both as our main forwards for years to come, and lead us to the promised land walking together hand in hand.
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This conversion rate % is such a ridiculous stat. You only have to go back to Arsenals last league game to find fault with this. Was Welbecks rather comical air shot included as a chance missed? No, does his failure to get a shot away after going through one on one because he's stood on the ball/slipped/fell over/stood on the ball/over run it have a negative impact on this stat? No. This is a missed chance but its buried underneath stats like this.
Fair enough, sometimes it just doesn't work out with a player but Wenger has had more successes than failures in this department. For every Jeffers there's Anelka, Henry, Adebayor and Van Persie.
All in all Wenger's player development is one of his strengths so its a weird criticism to level at him, no manager gets it right 100% of the time but Wenger gets it right more times than most.
Welbeck has everything he needs to fulfill his talent here, great manager, top facilities and an extended run as the main striker.
Lets see what he can do.
Why everyone is bitching we should have kept him, he wanted to leave, and yes VG said he was not good enough but it was the right time, would I have kept welbeck over RVP? Possibly, but if we sold RVP to arsenal it may have ended the same way. But all I see this being the new pogba thread, it's just destined
Can't say I disagree with any of that. Wenger is no mug when it comes to assessing a player's abilities. Danny is a good fit for Arsenal and vice versa. Good luck to him.
Well I agree that in twelve months or more the decision to sell Welbeck and keep RVP will probably look daft, both players are at opposing stages of their careers but for any manager to make that decision now they would have needed to be extremely secure in their job, the kind of security only ever enjoyed by Fergie. LVG, Moyes or Giggs would be laughed out of Woodward's office for suggesting such a move. The fac that Falcao became available compounded the issue and Welbeck couldn't wait any longer and he shouldn't have, it's just that we didn't have to sell him to Arsenal, it was a stupidly naive decision, the worst we could have made.
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ot htat he will but he has so far
I do not understand how you formed such an assumption. Sir Alex Ferguson dropped Rooney in one leg of the cpl in order to play Welbeck in one of our most important game in his last tenue. Moreover, Welbeck was consistently relied upon by Sir Alex Ferguson in the left/right midfield role in his last season. He was not isolated to bench duty or loaned out. The Van Persie addition was made then because Welbeck was still developing as a striker and he wanted a striker who was one of the best around in order to give him his last trophy before he would retire. Not the opinion you formed, "that he was not showing enough." The season before, Welbeck and Rooney as our main strike partner, alongside the rest of our team helped accumulate our highest goal tally in a season for over ten years. So, it was not that he was not showing enough, it was that he was still a developing striker at that period of time that could not have guareented us success the same way a top class proven striker could. If anything, Sir Alex lost faith in Hernandez or perhaps Rooney in the lone striker role with the addition of rvp. The former in particularily, because that should have been his breakout season.
It is also ironic you mentioned Jones, as Sir Alex relied upon him the same way he relied upon Welbeck by playing him in multiple roles. On Van Gaal, I am not sure what his views on Welbeck are. In pre-season, it looked like he was going to be a personally favorite until he suffered an injury. I believe he is not in the business of relying on youngs players at the moment as he wants instant success. You can say he has called upon blackett, but that looks like it was because we are not as well stocked in that position then we are in our attack with genuine quality. Januzaj who was one of our best players last season, can not even get into our attack at the moment, which is somewhat a problem for his development progress.
SAF dropping Rooney for the Real game had nothing to do with Welbeck. I'm not sure why people keep bringing that up.
Danny would still be here if Fergie was still here, of that I have no doubt.
Despite him supposedly trying to get out of the club at the latter end of Fergie's last season?
That was Rooney you're thinking of.
Welbeck did it before too. Or maybe it was under Moyes, not Fergie?
That was under Moyes.
Rooney would definetly not have done the job Welbeck did in that match, i.e., balancing counter attack, with his suffoco responsibility. So, if it has nothing to do with Welbeck, I guess that tactical move by Sir Alex was made by pure luck.
No, obviously not. But they're not mutually exclusive at all. Rooney was clearly dropped around that time because it was obvious he wanted out and SAF was having none of his bullshit. It wasn't the only game he was dropped for, you know. When has SAF ever dropped a fit Rooney for another player when he wasn't complaining?
Hint: Never.
You could argue that Welbeck started the game because SAF had trust in him, that's fine, but dropping Rooney had nothing to do with it.
Although he still works hard and tracks back on occasion, I get the feeling that Arsene has told him to tone it down a bit and use that hard work making runs in behind as he did yesterday. I felt he did too much unselfish work for us - similar to Rooney when he first arrived.
By the way @Amadaeus , it's far more plausible to say that Rooney was dropped for Nani than for Welbeck, seeing as Welbeck and Rooney both played in the first leg and Nani did not.
agree with that
my concern/disappointment with letting Welbeck go, was never really about the goals. He hasnt scored a lot of goals for United (we can debate the reasons all day long), though he has shown the side to his game for England. My disappointment was based along the lines of the fact that his style and qualities were much different from what the other guys bring to the table. Danny's pace and movement would be an asset to any team, but particularly ours as we had become a bit static. He's also great at playing 1 touch stuff, flicks etc, he could have dovetailed with DiMaria and Herrera lovely. Instead we have to watch it at Arsenal
RVP is paceless and a bit static, great finisher on his day. You could say that Falcao has the same attributes, though his passing is probably better than RVP, and slightly quicker. Rooney, brilliant on his day but after that, what? Mata?
Welbeck would have been something different. I can somewhat understand the decision if Danny was just insistant that he wanted to leave, but he's a Manc, a red one at that. I'm sure with the right words he could have been convinced to stay, show him the vision for the future. But LVG gave him the 'meh' response. I honestly would have thought that Welbeck would have been a player that LVG would have enjoyed working with and would have improved his game. Im surprised he let him go (ok i know we brought Falcao in, but different type of player)
under Moyes, when Moyes claimed that Welbeck didnt train hard enough. despite reports to the contrary that hes first on the training field and last to leave
Probably wasn't running well enough in the public parks.
Even though a player wanted out, he is still capable of performing(as seen in some of the few matches Rooney did well in post the madrid game). So him wanting to leave is irrevelant to his selection in that match. Welbeck was selected ahead of Rooney because of his better performance in the first leg and the task he was given in that game. At the next point, it is pluasable, but Nani played in a wide role, not a central one. A role Rooney would have struggled to perform in if that was the case
It's not plausible, it's blatantly obvious. Welbeck and Rooney both played the first leg, Rooney was dropped, Nani came in, ergo it's far more likely Rooney was dropped for Nani.
If Welbeck was already playing in the team then how on earth is it possible that Rooney was dropped for him? That makes no sense.
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