Brailsford is the reason Ashworth was hired, I find it difficult to believe they didn't discuss ETH during the infamous review and Ashworth wasn't consulted.
Dan "The Gardener" Ashworth Has Left | Venit, vidit, non vicit
- Thread starter Berbaclass
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He probably was consulted, and maybe even shared some opinions, seeing as he was kept in the loop during his gardening leave. But given that he wasn't fully in his role yet, I very much doubt he was making critical decisions at that time.
It's very convenient for the club to blame him now.
I think the focus on the summer window just gone by is a bit over exaggerated. If anything, this summer was probably one of our better windows. Other than Zirkzee, the rest of the signings have been decent. It’s the previous windows that have been the serious damage.
Very correct. He absolutely would have been given an opinion on Ten Hag and that opinion would have been given prime consideration by the bosses. Did he make the decision? no but I have no doubt in my mind he was in the "Ten Hag in" camp and his opinion carried major weight in the final decision.
Again, based on what? If he wasn't yet in his role and therefore didn't have complete information on the matter (yes, he had communication with the club during his gardening leave, but that's not the same as being fully in the role), why would his opinion on such a critical decision carry major weight?
Because he was going to be in charge in a few months. If you are appointed as the leader of an organisation and months to your start date, a major decision affecting said organisation is about to be taken, would they run it by you or not? And would they take your opinion into account or not? To me its pretty obvious he would be involved in that Ten Hag decision one way or the other.
Exactly, it demonstrates some of the worst planning I can recall for an enterprise as big as INEOS is.
Irrespective of Ashworth's supposed recommendations, no one will convince me that Southgate wouldn't have been a better hire when you assess the feasibility of this teams adaptation to incorporate different systems and philosophical approaches. When you compound this with the very poor summer that's already being briefed due to PSR there's a very realistic notion where Amorim won't ever have the opportunity to get off the ground.
Sir Jim, Barrada and Wilcox it's looking like a failure thus far. No confidence in the lot of them, they have demonstrated no ability to use foresight given the direction the club is heading in.
For now I have confidence in Wilcox - he seemed to be on the right side of some of the major decisions that were made, and by all accounts was the driving force behind ETH switching to a more pragmatic approach at the end of last season when results improved and we won the FA Cup.
While I agree, I still think if Ruben was Insitu, we would have bought different players, apart from maybe Mazraoui and Yoro. Ruben has said in the past he prefers Alonso types over Casimero types in midfield, so even Ugarte would not have been his first choice.
People can speculate on rumours from before Ashworth started but what was reported by respected journalists is that Brailsford was the one that pushed hard to keep ETH, Brailsford is a fecking cycling coach who got close to Ratcliffe through the Ineos cycling team and has zero knowledge in football.
Ashworth’s job was to decide on a long term philosophy and way of playing from the first team down to the academies and as Sporting Director it was his job to find a new head coach after ETH was fired, it was reported that Ashworth wanted Howe or Frank or if they weren’t available immediately then Potter as an interim because they all fit how Ashworth had planned for our identity.
What is fact is that Berrada pushed hard for Amorim to come in even though as CEO he shouldn’t have any input into it as he’s an executive director and non footballing person whilst Ashworth was in Ratcliffe’s own words the “head of the footballing department” yet within hours of ETH being fired Berrada was on a plane to Portugal and even though Amorim didn’t want to come until the summer and in his own words was told now or never.
Within no time at all after Amorim came in Ashworth had left by mutual consent and no one knows for sure why but the reports that were obvious club briefings for their spin was Ashworth went because he wanted to keep ETH and paid the price for this as firing ETH was such an obvious choice and Brailsford as a director rather than an expendable part of the staff escaped any blame.
Since then we’ve seen all the reports of Ashworth being against Amorim coming in as he saw how Amorim was married to his system which went against how Ashworth had planned for us to play but also we neither had the players to play Amorim’s system or the money to bring the players to fit the system in either but the club went with what Berrada wanted and brought Amorim in against Ashworth’s advice.
Reading between the lines Ashworth was brought in to head up the footballing department and publicly called “best in class” for his job role yet had Brailsford go over his head with keeping ETH when Ashworth wanted Howe or Frank then Berrada did the same in bringing in Amorim so why stay at the club when his job is taken away from him by non footballing people and those above him ignore his advice ?
Would we better with Ashworth being the one that is listened too regarding footballing matters ? We’ll never know but he was brought in to head up the footballing department after a very public saga and publicly called “best in class” to implement a structure and an on pitch identity then when it came down to doing his job and making decisions he had non footballing directors taking those decisions away for their own choices.
Ashworth may not have worked out in the short or long term BUT he IS a footballing person with experience in the role he was brought in to do and we’ve spent years going crazy over non footballing directors who have no right to make footballing choices running things yet here we are again repeating the same mistakes then wondering why it’s all going so badly, much like Woodward and Arnold neither of Brailsford or Berrada have any right in making footballing decisions.
Ashworth’s job was to decide on a long term philosophy and way of playing from the first team down to the academies and as Sporting Director it was his job to find a new head coach after ETH was fired, it was reported that Ashworth wanted Howe or Frank or if they weren’t available immediately then Potter as an interim because they all fit how Ashworth had planned for our identity.
What is fact is that Berrada pushed hard for Amorim to come in even though as CEO he shouldn’t have any input into it as he’s an executive director and non footballing person whilst Ashworth was in Ratcliffe’s own words the “head of the footballing department” yet within hours of ETH being fired Berrada was on a plane to Portugal and even though Amorim didn’t want to come until the summer and in his own words was told now or never.
Within no time at all after Amorim came in Ashworth had left by mutual consent and no one knows for sure why but the reports that were obvious club briefings for their spin was Ashworth went because he wanted to keep ETH and paid the price for this as firing ETH was such an obvious choice and Brailsford as a director rather than an expendable part of the staff escaped any blame.
Since then we’ve seen all the reports of Ashworth being against Amorim coming in as he saw how Amorim was married to his system which went against how Ashworth had planned for us to play but also we neither had the players to play Amorim’s system or the money to bring the players to fit the system in either but the club went with what Berrada wanted and brought Amorim in against Ashworth’s advice.
Reading between the lines Ashworth was brought in to head up the footballing department and publicly called “best in class” for his job role yet had Brailsford go over his head with keeping ETH when Ashworth wanted Howe or Frank then Berrada did the same in bringing in Amorim so why stay at the club when his job is taken away from him by non footballing people and those above him ignore his advice ?
Would we better with Ashworth being the one that is listened too regarding footballing matters ? We’ll never know but he was brought in to head up the footballing department after a very public saga and publicly called “best in class” to implement a structure and an on pitch identity then when it came down to doing his job and making decisions he had non footballing directors taking those decisions away for their own choices.
Ashworth may not have worked out in the short or long term BUT he IS a footballing person with experience in the role he was brought in to do and we’ve spent years going crazy over non footballing directors who have no right to make footballing choices running things yet here we are again repeating the same mistakes then wondering why it’s all going so badly, much like Woodward and Arnold neither of Brailsford or Berrada have any right in making footballing decisions.
Where does Wilcox fit in in the above?
Wilcox worked underneath Ashworth and reported to him so I don’t see Wilcox as problematic in everything that happened between the review for ETH post FA Cup final and Ashworth leaving, Wilcox obviously knows Berrada well from their time at City and whilst Wilcox has benefited from Ashworth leaving he knew Ashworth was effectively his boss
Pretty sure it was said to be Brailsford who persuaded Jimbo to keep ETH.
I mean, even normally we all know that people in those positions will be in contact with their new club unofficially. But it's especially obvious in this case since Ashworth literally got caught doing it (and by doing so showed Berrada was doing the same).
I'm not saying he definitely was pushing to keep ETH. We'll never know for sure. But I'd say there's a fairly strong chance he was.
The only reason Ashworth was bought in, was Brailsford and his previous association with him. When Ratcliffe got in Berrada, i think I read here he did not think such an appointment could be made and when he got the chance he took it.
Basically Berrada was lined up for Tixi's role before we nabbed him, he was COO (Chief Operating Officer) , he had lined up Ruben as Pep's replacement if he left.once he came here, we went for him.
Jim should have waited till Berrada was in before trying to going Ashworth, clearly there was a clash or overlap of roles with Wilcox and him.
If it was my choice I would have chosen Berrada over Ashworth. He has bigger pedigree and a track record of sustained success. I would take Ruben over any of Ashworth's recommendations, especially those Southgate rumours.
Txiki is a footballing person, an ex player and has been Director Of Football (so overseen and headed up the footballing department) at Barca and City whereas Berrada was as you say the COO which saw him brokering off pitch deals and structural deals rather than anything on the pitch, do you not think Berrada was aware of Txiki leaving City at the end of the season ? There’s a reason why City went for Viana as Txiki’s replacement and that is because much like Txiki is Viana is a football person whereas Berrada isn’t.
Yes Berrada has been involved in more success than Ashworth but he’s never made footballing decisions because he had Soriano and Txiki in sync with Pep to run the footballing department, it doesn’t matter what way you try to swing it Berrada is a non footballing director who has no experience in making footballing decisions and that’s exactly the same mistake as we’ve been making for well over a decade.
There’s no guarantee that Ashworth would have been successful either BUT he DOES have experience in implementing footballing structures and DOES have experience making footballing decisions which is why he was brought in and I’d say the same for Wilcox who has worked as a coach, a Head Of Youth Development, a Technical Director and as a Sporting Director therefore is better qualified to make footballing decisions than Berrada is.
It’s like we’re blinded by new shiny toy syndrome as Berrada making footballing decisions when his job roles have been Head Of Sponsorship, COO and CEO is no different to Woodward or Arnold and whilst I have no doubt Berrada is more competent than those two he still IS NOT qualified to make footballing decisions especially the ones we desperately need to be made seeing how fecked we are financially and the squad we have.
As for the Southgate rumours that was lazy journalism based on the link between Ashworth and Southgate from England and the fact Southgate was out of work when ETH was fired, respected journalists said Ashworth wanted Howe or Frank as they fit how Ashworth had decided we were going to play and if we couldn’t get them at that time then having an interim for rest of the season which would have been a straight choice between sticking with RVN or Potter.
I agree with regards to Berrada, but he brought in Wilcox and there seems to have been a case for too many cooks and one left.
Why? He didn't have any first hand knowledge of ETH, had never seen or observed him coaching or anything. So they may well have asked him and he'd have had an opinion but, really, what opinion could he have that would carry weight other than if they just asked any old random sporting director across football?
Ashworth had no say on 'how' we wanted to play - I feel like you need to read up on his career/role, he's not someone involved in tactics, hands on recruitment, talent identification, playing style etc. he sits above it all.
Agree with this, Berrada is doing what we castigated Woodward for doing and God help us all if he gets it wrong because we are now in weaker place than we were then.
The decision to bring in Amorim, I support him and would like to see him backed and hopefully lead us for a long and successful period, was shambolic, to say the least. We didn't have any money to retrofit the squad to his specifics, we have made valuable assets redundant and even if they adjust they might never perform at their absolute best and we don't have many players that suit what he wants which means it will be an epic rebuild.
Berrada shouldn't have been the one lead that process and guess he was more assured and convincing to SJR.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/61...-ideal-ruben-amorim-striker/?source=twitteruk
More evidence again from this Laurie Whitwell piece that the real reason Ashworth was fired was his resistance to job cuts in the football department, not anything actually football related. INEOS are cnuts.
Awesome Ashworth and not Dastardly Dan.
Can I just make one point about Berrada, he was the head of football operations at Man City from September 2020 - January 2024 when we poached him.
He is not some banker he is a man who has both been a Chief operating officer and head of football operations for City a successfully run club, to say he has no right in football decisions is ludicrous.
The Ashworth stuff is interesting as how do we know what his judgement of selecting a manager is, during his time as a Sporting Director in the PL he has selected one manager, which was Graham Potter at Brighton.
Eddie Howe was already in at Newcastle by the time, he joined after the end of his gardening leave.
He clearly didn’t fit the culture that both Berrada and Wilcox are trying to build, how do we know he was the answer and not a problem?
One thing we do know is that instead of upgrading United’s data analysis in house he pushed to outsource this, which has been reported by reliable journalists, as one reason that lead to his departure.
Berrada was Head Of Sponsorship at Barca then went to City to be commercial director then promoted to COO and then became Chief Football Operations Officer for the City Group and in that final role he oversaw things at the top of the City Group’s clubs across the world, where in that did he make footballing decisions like who the head coach should be ?
Clearly you didn’t read what was said as I said Ashworth’s choices were Howe and Frank and it’s obviously known Howe was Newcastle when Ashworth was on gardening leave seeing as Howe was at Newcastle before Ashworth was, nothing was said about whether Howe was at Newcastle when Ashworth went on gardening leave.
Of course Ashworth wanted to outsource our data analysis out as ours has been below most other clubs for years which is why our recruitment data, scouting data and performance data has allowed players to perform as they have and our recruitment is fecking garbage so why wouldn’t Ashworth want to outsource rather than promote from within ?
Why would Wilcox be more involved in creating a culture when he was reporting TO Ashworth and Ashworth was his boss ? You do realise that Berrada is in the role that Woodward and Arnold was in right ? Which is why Patrick Stewart was used as interim between Arnold and Berrada and in Ratcliffe’s OWN WORDS Ashworth was in charge of the entire footballing department.
No one has said Ashworth would have been the answer but allowing a director that’s a cycling coach in Brailsford and the CEO who specialises in sponsorship and commercial deals in Berrada to make footballing decisions over the person Ratcliffe’s publicly stated was head of football operations in Ashworth is simply repeating the mistakes of the past under Woodward and Arnold.
Ironically now after United not needing a Sporting Director after Ashworth leaving we’re apparently looking at ….. bringing in a Sporting Director after firing the last one after 5 months and not allowing him to make decisions on the things he was brought in to make decisions on, as a club United just can’t make it make sense and are the epitome of doing the same thing over and over the wondering why it’s the same poor results across the board.
Unfortunately the one who left is the only one that could be described as a best in class director of football. Wilcox did it for a short time at Southampton.
I personally don't think he is best in class, what has he achieved?
Watch this:
All I hear is mr slopy shoulders sitting on the fence and batting any question regarding responsibility in his role to the club or the chairman. Seems like he was clocked very quickly and booted out.
I agree fully in regards to what Ashworth has genuinely achieved as he’s not achieved things on the level of Marotta, Txixi or Campos BUT you don’t publicly come out and state someone is best in class and wait for them then once they come in take away their decision making power for that of a cycling coach and the CEO
Chances are the job would have been too big for Ashworth as we’re seeing from the current shambles BUT you at least give him a season or two as no one can turn things around with how bad they were in 5 months and no real transfer window to bring players in or time to implement what he wanted.
Where did it say he wasn’t involved in selecting a manager? Clearly as he was the number two at city he will have been in board meetings with Txiki Bergestein with who city where looking at, or do you not think the board are informed?
I did read it I stated about his ability to select a a manager clearly you didn’t read it.
What is the point of outsourcing at an additional cost than trying to develop the department? Looking at the club finances.
Wilcox is a Technical director, so what your saying is unless your the head of something you cannot create a working culture?
Oh no thank you for clearing that up for me, I wondered what he was doing all this time, how do you know in your infinite wisdom? Are you in the board can you see the future? Berrada clearly has more knowledge about the subject than me and you, I trust his judgment clearly you do not, only time will tell.
When did United say they didn’t need a Director of Football? Or maybe they made a mistake in the one they hired, corrected that mistake and took their time analyzing the perfect replacement.
The football structure has been in place not even 12 months, you expect years of mistakes and overspends to correct in a few months? You never worked somewhere when someone’s hired isn’t the right fit and then is sacked, no one knows whether that was the right call or not.
Clearly they need time, would you rather they stuck with someone who wasn’t doing a good job? Or would that not be doing the same mistakes as last time.
Agree, that was a c**p, it looks like a case of Jim trusting Brailsford's recommendation and then observing him and deciding, Nah. But his sacking did put egg on Jim's face after his declaration of "best in class".
Said at the time, the sacking of this guy raised serious red flags. Ahsworth's reputation is enhanced more and more as time goes on.
With the current state of the data science department and the short time Ashworth would have had to upgrade it and the importance of the manager position, his suggestion to hire someone external just for this would have been prudent. We haven't even replaced the head of the department yet that started it all up just a few years ago. We started late and Ashworth would have been at Brighton and Newcastle and seen how far behind we are. Of course he'd want to enlist additional resources. It's not gonna be up to near the best in the league for another couple years at best.
Soriano and Txixi were/are 1 and 2 at City whilst Berrada was in charge of the City Football Group once he was moved from COO and before that Berrada was a commercial director who worked on creating financial partnerships and before that at Barca worked on sponsorships, whilst he’s almost certainly more intelligent than Woodward or Arnold are Berrada has no experience in making footballing decisions and as CEO shouldn’t be making them.
You very clearly stated that Howe was already in at Newcastle when Ashworth was gardening leave which is obvious seeing as Howe was there before Ashworth was, Ashworth didn’t need to choose a manager at Newcastle for that reason so using that as a negative against Ashworth is pointless seeing as Howe has taken Newcastle to two cup finals and the CL so isn’t in danger of being replaced.
After working at Brighton and Newcastle who have a far better data department than United do and seeing as data is such an important part of modern day football it makes perfect sense to overhaul the data department and outsource it until the correct people were available, why recruit from within if they’re no better or worse than the last lot just to save a few quid but do further damage to the club ?
Completely contradicted yourself as you say why stick with someone who’s not doing a good job yet also saying to recruit from within for the data department when United’s is terrible, contradicted yourself again by saying the football structure has been in place for 12 months (which it hasn’t as Ineos didn’t bring in Berrada, Ashworth or Wilcox til months later) so need time to fix years of mismanagement yet Ashworth was gone after 5 months so didn’t have time either.
It doesn’t matter what way you attempt to dress it up Berrada is the CEO and in Ratcliffe’s own words Ashworth was in charge of the football department which shows that Berrada was not and therefore should not have been making decisions like who comes in as the next head coach and Brailsford most fecking certainly shouldn’t seeing as he was the driving force behind keeping ETH and also wanted Southgate after ETH.
It probably took Ashworth those 5 months to look at everything and work out what was needed where off the pitch and it’s clear to pretty much everyone that United need to walk before the can run so we needed someone to come in and lay foundations on the pitch which may or may not be Amorim but it shows nothing has changed when non footballing people are still making footballing decisions and how there is no structure seeing as Berrada wanted Amorim, Brailsford wanted Southgate and Ashworth wanted Howe or Frank who outside of Howe and Frank all play different systems and shows we have zero long term plan or idea for on pitch continuity.
I genuinely don't see why? Because Southgate was a better choice? Because you wanted to see more of Ten Hag?
Ashworth favouring Southgate is such a myth
Given who he is and what he stands for, him being a Southgate fan absolutely isn't farfetched even remotely. Either way, I've no idea why anyone would be mourning, giving a feck, or longing for this bloke. He was here for half a cup of coffee, who knows what difference he would or wouldn't have made.
Considering everyone in charge has served up nothing but a total shit show, I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the only guy with any actual previous success in his role and assume he might've done better
Brailsford wanted Southgate whilst Ashworth wanted Howe or Frank, wish the whole ‘Ashworth wants Southgate’ thing based on their very brief time together at England thing would just die out for good.
If they were romantically involved with one another that changes everything.
