Dan "The Gardener" Ashworth Has Left | Venit, vidit, non vicit

[Valuedrug]

Ashworth is an excellent sporting director. He was the brains behind England's DNA who transformed the England's team from the Spurs of national football into a young talent machine capable of reaching finals in important cups. The guy has a rather tedious way of thinking were nothing is left for chance, people with the right skills ends up in the right jobs (even if the rest of their skillset is shit) and the club moves slowly forward. We love laughing at Southgate but let's admit it. Who on earth would have gambled that a failed Middlesbrough manager would be able to take the poisoned chalice and be more successful then the likes of Don Fabio Capello? I certainly didn't. In fact I thought that the guy wouldn't last 3 months.

The problem is that Ashworth is a long game type of guy. He made his bones at a proper club (Peterborough) then he climbed the ranks with West brom and Brighton. These are proper clubs who aim for progression and long term thinking (their squad tend to be dismantled every couple of years or two). Then the guy was persuaded (£££) to join Newcastle and later on United. That's was a bad fit for him.

These are clubs in a hurry even though for different reasons. Saudi had put their reputation on the line with Newcastle thus they wanted instant success. Ratcliffe is also on a hurry being 72 years old but he also understood the enormity of the job in place. The official line with SJR is that he took United because he's a local fan. I suspect there's also something else to it. You see, the guy made his reputation by taking companies who were struggling and then turn things around. I saw an old (and tediously long) financial interview of his and you could see how passionate he is about doing that. His secret is that of going in, literally bomb the darn place (changing practices, cutting costs, hire people who can take decisions on the fly). Ashworth is a chess player so to speak. I used to play chess and when a chess player (whose not used to fast chess) is asked to hurry then he'll either hesitate or he'll make a mistake (ex the Tonali deal or sending United's correspondence to Newcastle). When the latter happens then usually the former will follow as their line of thought will be 'I fecked up caused I rushed, therefore I don't rush so I don't feck up'.

That's a problem because FFP is biting hard, United need to cut costs like yesterday and having Berrada sacking salespersons in the megastore while Ashworth is still deterring whether he should sell a 300k a week player or not makes SJR look like a James Bond villain . Add to the fact that Vivell (ex Chelsea), Berrada, Erith and Wilcox (all ex City) come from a highly stressful, highly dynamic, high stake environment and suddenly you have a tortoise sitting in the middle of operations and surrounded by cheetahs all around him taking split second decisions. The moment he started dithering he was simply overlooked and once he was overlooked he became a burden. Some of the decision making by Ashworth show how disconnected he was to the reality. For example he took a holiday on the second day of Berrada's starting the job and then went to watch United with his family totally unaware that he was minutes away from losing his job.

Don't take me wrong there was a certain level of GOT style of politics. As you said Berrada brought his own people and TBF Ashworth tried to do the same by suggesting the likes of Potter and Southgate. However Vivell is not a Manchester City/Barca man and he's still thriving. So if you ask Ashworth's biggest issue was that he came in a team were people didn't knew him (but they trusted one another), they already had his skills (whether at the same level remain to be seen) but were faster in terms of decision making. Which leads us right to the root of the problem. This is not an argument of whether Ashworth is good or not. This is a recruitment mess.

Very interesting read. I think you're spot on with the analysis in terms of Ashworths character and decisionmaking style. In true tortoise fashion, if something goes wrong, his first instinct is to retreat into his shell, meditate on the problem from all angles and select a pathway that stays true to the long game strategic aim he is playing for (maybe turtles don't actually do that, but you get what I'm saying ). And given the immediacy of the situation United find themselves in this could cause all kinds of friction no doubt.

You're right about it being a recruitment mess, probably born out the circumstances surrounding the INEOS takeover, Brailsfords review etc. Incredible to me though that he ended up pursuing Ashworth for the DoF role, if your assessment of Ratcliffe is accurate. How can he not know that the way his own boss operates is so far removed from Ashworths modus operandi and mindset that it would inevitably end in calamity? The more I hear about Brailsford the less impressed I am, but I suppose he was also a part of getting Berrada through the door.

To my mind, however, it's still an open question how much of this debacle is a function of the current circumstances/environment vs. Ratcliffes innate character and therefore to some extent INEOS way of operating - and by extension what that will mean for the club environment in the long term. I have a good impression of Ashworth, I'm not going to deny that. I might have preferred to play that long game of his and see where it would take us, but that's a moot point now of course. I still wonder if it's just a matter of the current stress of circumstance that necessitates a different decision making and problem solving style, or whether this kind of high stress, high dynamic environment will be a constant going forward.

I'm leaning towards the latter, and I wonder what kind of culture that will produce and how far it will take us. At the moment everything is up in the air, with every major decision contributing to the kind of stable environment we will see at Ratcliffes United. Maybe things will settle down around Berrada and the people who can thrive in this kind of situation, and maybe that success will open the door to some of that tortoise wisdom once again. I would personally very much prefer to avoid a continuing United GOT soap opera going forward, so I'll have my fingers crossed that the dust settles sooner rather than later.

 

[Hughie77]

What makes you think that?

To me, it sounds like Ashworth didn't want Amorim and the executive team has made a decision which in essence is fully backing Amorim and removing any negativity from a scenario like "well I never wanted Amorim to begin with."

Time will only tell if this was a good move, but I would feel more backed by the powers above if I was Amorim.

I agree, I went a bit early on that , I fell for the BS realy I should have known better, I realy think Amorin needs full backing and that Ashworth wasn't doing it .

 

[Ekeke]

Ashworth is an excellent sporting director. He was the brains behind England's DNA who transformed the England's team from the Spurs of national football into a young talent machine capable of reaching finals in important cups. The guy has a rather tedious way of thinking were nothing is left for chance, people with the right skills ends up in the right jobs (even if the rest of their skillset is shit) and the club moves slowly forward. We love laughing at Southgate but let's admit it. Who on earth would have gambled that a failed Middlesbrough manager would be able to take the poisoned chalice and be more successful then the likes of Don Fabio Capello? I certainly didn't. In fact I thought that the guy wouldn't last 3 months.

The problem is that Ashworth is a long game type of guy. He made his bones at a proper club (Peterborough) then he climbed the ranks with West brom and Brighton. These are proper clubs who aim for progression and long term thinking (their squad tend to be dismantled every couple of years or two). Then the guy was persuaded (£££) to join Newcastle and later on United. That's was a bad fit for him.

These are clubs in a hurry even though for different reasons. Saudi had put their reputation on the line with Newcastle thus they wanted instant success. Ratcliffe is also on a hurry being 72 years old but he also understood the enormity of the job in place. The official line with SJR is that he took United because he's a local fan. I suspect there's also something else to it. You see, the guy made his reputation by taking companies who were struggling and then turn things around. I saw an old (and tediously long) financial interview of his and you could see how passionate he is about doing that. His secret is that of going in, literally bomb the darn place (changing practices, cutting costs, hire people who can take decisions on the fly). Ashworth is a chess player so to speak. I used to play chess and when a chess player (whose not used to fast chess) is asked to hurry then he'll either hesitate or he'll make a mistake (ex the Tonali deal or sending United's correspondence to Newcastle). When the latter happens then usually the former will follow as their line of thought will be 'I fecked up caused I rushed, therefore I don't rush so I don't feck up'.

That's a problem because FFP is biting hard, United need to cut costs like yesterday and having Berrada sacking salespersons in the megastore while Ashworth is still deterring whether he should sell a 300k a week player or not makes SJR look like a James Bond villain . Add to the fact that Vivell (ex Chelsea), Berrada, Erith and Wilcox (all ex City) come from a highly stressful, highly dynamic, high stake environment and suddenly you have a tortoise sitting in the middle of operations and surrounded by cheetahs all around him taking split second decisions. The moment he started dithering he was simply overlooked and once he was overlooked he became a burden. Some of the decision making by Ashworth show how disconnected he was to the reality. For example he took a holiday on the second day of Berrada's starting the job and then went to watch United with his family totally unaware that he was minutes away from losing his job.

Don't take me wrong there was a certain level of GOT style of politics. As you said Berrada brought his own people and TBF Ashworth tried to do the same by suggesting the likes of Potter and Southgate. However Vivell is not a Manchester City/Barca man and he's still thriving. So if you ask Ashworth's biggest issue was that he came in a team were people didn't knew him (but they trusted one another), they already had his skills (whether at the same level remain to be seen) but were faster in terms of decision making. Which leads us right to the root of the problem. This is not an argument of whether Ashworth is good or not. This is a recruitment mess.

Oh come off it, the reason England are doing well is because of the chances the players club teams gave them and their development, not the occasional trip with England

As if Ashworth is the reason Saka is great and not the daily work of the Arsenal youth and first team coaching and then being given the chance to play weekly with quality players. What a load of rubbish

 

[Stinkypete]

Oh come off it, the reason England are doing well is because of the chances the players club teams gave them and their development, not the occasional trip with England

As if Ashworth is the reason Saka is great and not the daily work of the Arsenal youth and first team coaching and then being given the chance to play weekly with quality players. What a load of rubbish

You are singing to the wrong choir with that one.

Ashworth gets way too much credit for England.

What he did at the time was pretty good no doubt. But his legacy is Southgate, his legacy is that the products of his coaching courses are failing at club level.

He also set up Technical and Director courses to catch up with the continent, but he didn't use the continental model and prefers his own approach in that area, which is fine but very national team centric.

His club roles were hardly stand out and again legacy tells a different tale.

Ultimately, Ratcliffe, Brailsford and Blanc all dealt with European Directors of Football, you could have an agent in South America on the phone in 3 minute types. Action.

When there "best in class" director can't get a contact in Portugal or put together a data analysis team in 5 months, something is very wrong with expectations vs reality.

Are INEOS at fault, yes they should have probably done a bit more research, but when you sign a person to a role and that person comes with plaudits and a reputation, you expect that person to be a top guy in your organisation. He had the keys to Manchester United and decided he liked things as they were. That's okay. But not what INEOS want.

 

[1988]

He's still hanging out with the lads.

 

[Skills]

He probably had a point with the continuity thing.

Are we really going to commit to building a squad for a 3-4-3 now?

 

[FortunaUtd]

He probably had a point with the continuity thing.

Are we really going to commit to building a squad for a 3-4-3 now?

What exactly is the problem? We are well covered in CB already with De Ligt, Yoro, Martinez, Maguire, Lindelof, Evans, Mazraoui, potentially Shaw. One could even leave.
That we need a left back or two is not tied to the formation and true regardless of it, and that it should be one who is creative and dangerous attacking isn't exactly something to regret later if he were to play LB instead of LWB.
Another attacker who can operate between the lines surely can't hurt either, when we replace Rashford who was neither a proper winger nor a proper 10.

 

[Chairman Steve]

If he’s the guy who wanted us to keep ETH and ultimately signed off on that, then he deserved to go frankly. I do remember stories during the end of season where Ashworth wanted to keep him and Wilcox didn’t.

 

[Jev]

He probably had a point with the continuity thing.

Are we really going to commit to building a squad for a 3-4-3 now?

Yeah, it seems strange to commit to a manager who’s so inflexible about playing a niche formation. Wasn’t the whole idea to have a club formation and buy from a consistent strategy that’s not affected by whichever head coach is in charge at a given moment? We can’t keep letting every new coach rip the squad apart and it’s hard to see how that’s not happening if Ruben won’t change this system.

 

[Bojan11]

Yeah, it seems strange to commit to a manager who’s so inflexible about playing a niche formation. Wasn’t the whole idea to have a club formation and buy from a consistent strategy that’s not affected by whichever head coach is in charge at a given moment? We can’t keep letting every new coach rip the squad apart and it’s hard to see how that’s not happening if Ruben won’t change this system.

One of the reasons Liverpool rejected Ruben because they weren’t committed to buying players for 3-4-3.

 

[elisha27]

Yeah, it seems strange to commit to a manager who’s so inflexible about playing a niche formation. Wasn’t the whole idea to have a club formation and buy from a consistent strategy that’s not affected by whichever head coach is in charge at a given moment? We can’t keep letting every new coach rip the squad apart and it’s hard to see how that’s not happening if Ruben won’t change this system.

A fixed club formation has never been the idea. It would be ludicrous for the club to prescribe a formation that every manager – either now or in the future – must play. The top-to-bottom strategy that was mooted centres around principles of play (for example, concepts like high pressing, possession football etc) so that we don't lurch from Van Gaal's possession-based style to Mourinho's counter-attacking and so on.

Amorim has tried to stress the formation doesn't mean that much and fans focus on it too much. His (or indeed any) system will suffer from the lack of athleticism and guile in this current United squad.

 

[croadyman]

Gut feeling is he doesn't get replaced, there would be more links to candidates if that was the case

 

[RedRocket9908]

19 days in to the transfer window and we are still at 0 players out and 0 players in, if we hadnt have fired Dan we probably would have at least made a couple of loan signings by now and got a couple of unwanted players out