Sure, so you adapt. City dont have a really top striker. We have Greenwood and Rashford, the former still to fully prove himself and latter woefully out of form. So you need others to contribute, like Bruno, Sancho etc. You dont need to shoehorn in a player past his best, at exorbinate wages, who demands to be the focal point of everything and doesnt press. Makes us even more predictable and able to defend against.
7
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 38
- Goals
- 24
- Assists
- 3
- Yellow cards
- 9
- Status
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one. Ronaldo arrived and all of a sudden the balance and chemistry of the team changed, why? because he was not a player actively planned for and didnt fit the style we were looking to play. We are a worse team due to him joining. That does not mean that he is still not a great striker, just means he wasn't the striker we needed for our tactics.
We got a glimpse of the type of front three that would work for us when rashford-martial-greenwood all got double digit goals. Martial played as that link up/false 9 role (this also helped bruno score more as he could make runs into space that martial would vacate). That was the type of striker that we needed to buy. I think greenwood could play that role, but if not then greenwood would benefit when on the right from having a false 9 to play with.
Cavani is also not that type of striker as his touch, passing and close control is not that great. Out of the older strikers out there, the one we really needed was benzema or a benzema type.
We got a glimpse of the type of front three that would work for us when rashford-martial-greenwood all got double digit goals. Martial played as that link up/false 9 role (this also helped bruno score more as he could make runs into space that martial would vacate). That was the type of striker that we needed to buy. I think greenwood could play that role, but if not then greenwood would benefit when on the right from having a false 9 to play with.
Cavani is also not that type of striker as his touch, passing and close control is not that great. Out of the older strikers out there, the one we really needed was benzema or a benzema type.
@Rajma made a thread the 1st of September: "Unpopular opinion - Ronaldo will be a huge miss" with the following OP text:
1. His wages will stretch the frontier which agents will be able to explore when dealing with us over contract extensions in the future (we have seen this in the past already with Sanchez, Pogba, DDG). See Barca.
2. Non-existent defensive contributions will impact our shape and will put an immense pressure on our midfielders. Everyone could see the difference between Cavani and Martial last season and how it impacts our ability to press effectively from the front.
3. He can’t play with his back at all and do the hold-up as he only operates well in spaces since he’s not your classic #9.
4. In case he’ll be performing poorly Ole will shy away to change him due to his status and ego in order not to upset him, which will hinder our team.
I personally feel he’ll end up being a costly mistake for us (taking away the balance that Cavani brings) and Ole (will ultimately lose the job as a result) when you don’t look through the euphoria lenses. I may be underestimating Ronaldo greatly here but this is my feeling with respect to this transfer, having watched him play these last few seasons where he struggled to influence the games when he’s not scoring penalties or poaching goals are not on.
Hard to see how he's missed on any of his points.
The thread was closed in the start of November despite lively discussion in there.
Threads like: "Which player do you dislike the most?" where you can express your hate towards our own players or multiple active threads where you can have a dump at Ole after he's been sacked are popular and open still.
Mental!
1. His wages will stretch the frontier which agents will be able to explore when dealing with us over contract extensions in the future (we have seen this in the past already with Sanchez, Pogba, DDG). See Barca.
2. Non-existent defensive contributions will impact our shape and will put an immense pressure on our midfielders. Everyone could see the difference between Cavani and Martial last season and how it impacts our ability to press effectively from the front.
3. He can’t play with his back at all and do the hold-up as he only operates well in spaces since he’s not your classic #9.
4. In case he’ll be performing poorly Ole will shy away to change him due to his status and ego in order not to upset him, which will hinder our team.
I personally feel he’ll end up being a costly mistake for us (taking away the balance that Cavani brings) and Ole (will ultimately lose the job as a result) when you don’t look through the euphoria lenses. I may be underestimating Ronaldo greatly here but this is my feeling with respect to this transfer, having watched him play these last few seasons where he struggled to influence the games when he’s not scoring penalties or poaching goals are not on.
Hard to see how he's missed on any of his points.
The thread was closed in the start of November despite lively discussion in there.
Threads like: "Which player do you dislike the most?" where you can express your hate towards our own players or multiple active threads where you can have a dump at Ole after he's been sacked are popular and open still.
Mental!
You've had a few excellent posts in this thread.
Spot on, but there's a cult around Ronaldo fandom already and then add in bringing back a star from 'the glory years' when United were actually good and there was this whole nostalgia wave that stopped people from seeing things objectively.
People give out about the board, but these Woodward signings always do exactly what a lot of fans want, pandering to pure commercialism and 'feelings'. United of course 'won' the transfer window, while Liverpool wouldn't buy anyone. Look at the two teams now. What has it got us?
It's the same with managers. Everything is in reaction to something else. Moyes wasn't European or sophisticated enough, so in came Van Gaal. Van Gaal was too possession based and didn't win enough, so in came Mourinho the ultimate winner. Mourinho was too toxic and disrespected the club, so in comes nice man and club legend Ole. Ole didn't do enough modern coaching, so in came modern coaching godfather Ralf Rangnick.
There was never a plan from a footballing perspective to bring Ronaldo in, other than for commercial reasons (ie they couldn't use old Ronaldo marketing and videos if he went to City), and he didn't fit into any plan Ole would have come up with for the squad, for the reasons in that original thread. But at least he got 2 million likes for Man United Twitter I guess. For the first week of his arrival, the club Twitter just turned into an advertising board of 'buy your Ronaldo 7 jersey now', after all. Again, commercial.
Considering the circumstances, he hasn’t really underperformed has heHe’s performed as well as he could have on the whole given how dire the team has been. He almost single-handedly took us through to the KO stages of the CL and actually kept Ole in his job longer than he would’ve been which is actually the opposite of what you’re saying.
Ronaldo is just an easy scapegoat because of his status.
Also, for wages, Cavani is probably costing as much or more than Ronaldo considering his limited availability.
Given that we went from 2nd spot to 7th with him, and given that the goals have dried up, and given that he offers very little other than goals and is still underpforming when it comes to finishing, he is a big part of the problem regardless of the deflecting that his fanboys engage in
It has been documented page up and page down here the last couple of days how he has underperformed and how he's had a negative impact on the team.
A 52 second mashup from twitter doesn't mean anything. You could make a 10 minute long mashup of Ronaldo mishandling the ball, missing easy chances, missing the ball completely etc. if you wanted, but it would mean little too if he contributed a net positive to the team, which he isn't.
That’s your opinion, that’s not fact.
A player that is 14 in 22 in a season when at least 6 of those games were during Ole’s downfall and the players weren’t trying is hardly indicative of a player underperforming.
At least this time there isn’t a CR7 in the twitter handle. The photo is a bit of a giveaway, mind you.
Seeing as he clearly chose not to include Ronaldo heading the ball to Jimenez, on the edge of our six yard box, it’s safe to say he also chose to ignore all of Ronaldo’s other individual contributions to Monday night’s shit show.
You stick Greenwood up front in this current team and just like Ronaldo he'd barely be involved.
Lots of stats but he's completley ignoring Rashford and Bruno's goalscoring stats for the second half of last season. When their goalscoring and performances plummeted. Without Ronaldo.
I literally posted a reply to you earlier today, where I represented statistical material documenting how he has underperformed and multiple posts the last few days where I have posted statistical material showing how our team performances has declined in every team parameter with his arrival. I haven't even mentioned the climate in the dressing room.
I don't know how to make it any more objective than that.
The impact he is having on us on and off the pitch needs to be addressed now before it gets even worse.
Ronaldo is one of my all time favourite players, but I'm not watching us jump off a cliff like a blind cult for him...
This is like discussing with flat-earthers or climatechange denyers. Solid proof isn't enough.
Could still remember being very much against this transfer when we were being linked to him, and I thought most were caught up in the euphoria that they couldn't see how this was never going to be a good transfer. Anyone who have watched him play for the past few would know this was likely going to turn out horribly.
In the last few years, he has only ever contributed to scoring goals while his fanboys shoved his numbers down our throats ignoring the fact he was being matched by the likes of Caputo, while being outscored by a 38 year old Quagliarella. These debates we are having now, were ranging on at Juventus back then too.
Siuuuu, return of the prodigal son, mentality, drive, 800 goals, were shoved down our throats while we made exactly the kind of transfer that we were supposed to not make again after the last few years, to disrupt what was looking like a promising squad.
We were going to sign a striker who can't hold onto the ball, hadn't dribbled past a defender since feck knew when, can't pass a ball, rubbish link up play, and offers next to nothing when his team has the ball. But we were supposed to believe that were getting one of the best players in the world, and many couldn't call the bluff because they were caught in the euphoria.
We are now left with a striker who can't play football anymore, offers little in terms of defending to the team, pretty much undroppable, scoring no more than midtable strikers, while we have to cater for his reputation as "one of those best players in the world" which is probably the most detrimental of them all. Pound for pound, he is barely top 50 in the Premier League alone.
I guess we just have to throw another league season, and hope we get easy teams in the Champions League so we can go for it while he scores a few more.
In the last few years, he has only ever contributed to scoring goals while his fanboys shoved his numbers down our throats ignoring the fact he was being matched by the likes of Caputo, while being outscored by a 38 year old Quagliarella. These debates we are having now, were ranging on at Juventus back then too.
Siuuuu, return of the prodigal son, mentality, drive, 800 goals, were shoved down our throats while we made exactly the kind of transfer that we were supposed to not make again after the last few years, to disrupt what was looking like a promising squad.
We were going to sign a striker who can't hold onto the ball, hadn't dribbled past a defender since feck knew when, can't pass a ball, rubbish link up play, and offers next to nothing when his team has the ball. But we were supposed to believe that were getting one of the best players in the world, and many couldn't call the bluff because they were caught in the euphoria.
We are now left with a striker who can't play football anymore, offers little in terms of defending to the team, pretty much undroppable, scoring no more than midtable strikers, while we have to cater for his reputation as "one of those best players in the world" which is probably the most detrimental of them all. Pound for pound, he is barely top 50 in the Premier League alone.
I guess we just have to throw another league season, and hope we get easy teams in the Champions League so we can go for it while he scores a few more.
You posted information on how he compares to some of the other top strikers in world football, that’s got nothing to do with performances that United have thrown out this season.
You could easily make those comparisons with any player in the team to the best player on the planet in their retrospective positions and come up with the same conclusions.
Do you mean like when he started the first 3 matches of the season and scored in all 3, before Ronaldo came in...
I'll give you one thing: Rashford and Bruno was not as good in the second half of last season as they were in the first half.
They have both been even worse since Ronaldo came in and Bruno with and without Ronaldo on the pitch are two totally different players, almost schizofrenic.
So much weight put onto those 3 games. One of which Leeds, are about the easiest team in the league to play against. Ridiculous.
What about the opening 24 league games of last season? When Greenwood scored 4. When he was getting plenty of criticism on here. Who was that down to?
We've gone over Bruno and Rashford's stats for the second half of last season. 3 goals from open play Bruno. 4 for Rashford. Rubbish figures. Who was that down to?
If you're saying others are ignoring cold hard stats how do you explain the above?
Talented players with almost no goal threat for half a season. Not a 3 game sample. With Ronaldo nowhere in sight.
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He's in bad form like every other player. But anyone suggesting he is a problem mentally has zero knowledge of him. No manager has ever complained about how he is in the dressing room and the only thing we have ever heard is that he works harder than anyone so making up ideas about him being an issue is ridiculous to me.
I've also compared him to a bunch of average PL forwards with the same conclusion.
Did you find any information in there supporting ideas that suggests he stands out in a positive way, make him undroppable or anything like that? Maybe the information even supported the idea that it would be smart to at least investigate the possibility that Ronaldo might actually be hindering the team and it is time to start trying other options. Could you be open for that?
Ronaldo has been the main variable in this team since 1/9 after all.
A lot of our players have been underperforming this season, but in my opinion Ronaldo is the main cause (not the only cause) for that.
Are you implying that changes can only come from outside but not inside? Players who is already at Man UTD can't change their attitude or performance? Also we were knocked out of UCL last year and not this year, can we attribute that to Ronaldo follow the same logic?
Are you implying that other team can't change from last season? Other team can't adapt to us at all?
If you are not implying these points above then what's the logic behind that bolded text?
I am not even here to defend Ronaldo, I think we should drop him as building a team around a 36 year old striker make zero sense, I just find your logic funny.
Personally I think Greenwood shows some very nice pass, dribbling and vision recently. He deserve a run as our main forward (of course he also needs to work very hard) as he's very very talented. Ronaldo can't keep playing as well since his body is obviously not up to it.
The fact that you think you can use number as a "solid proof" to a player's performance is just not right. If it's that simple then we should never have any argument on Ballon D'or and the like.
And comparing his stat to other like Salah for example, doesn't mean anything. We don't need stat to know Salah is better than Ronaldo right now, but Salah plays for Liverpool not us. He doesn't get selected over some of the superior striker like Salah or Haaland, or some other players you mentioned in your post.
Also, different team, different expectation, different pressure. A lot of lesser players feels at home at smaller club, they may have better stat now but that doesn't mean they will have the same good stat if they play at United.
All in all, there are too many more variables that can affect these stat that you may not consider. You said it yourself, you "haven't even mentioned the climate in the dressing room" - what if his "underperforming" is because other player is jealous of him or just don't like losing their place to him? The point is, in order to actually objectively assets something by number, it require a lot more detailed paper, especially in a game with a lot of unpredictable element like football. Why do you think just 1 post can provide an "objectively solid proof" to a player's performance and effect is beyond me. I appreciate your opinion as we all have one, but this is just not fact.
That's correct but while he himself still maintain that mentality, his body and skill doesn't show it anymore, so maybe he should changes his approach to other players a bit.
For me I don't see why some people can't see why -
Mane - Ronaldo - Salah
wouldn't work.
We went from a season where our main central strikers are holding up the ball and bringing others in to play - to a central striker that can't hold up the ball back to goal, has no link up play and is only reliant on the others creativity to him.
So the rest of the team goes to shit when our main central attacker needs creativity - when last season our central striker himself was very important to our creativity and interplay; especially in to inverted forwards.
We don't have enough creativity because Ronaldo needs creativity, which has now turned to our plan A - but we didn't play like a striker needing creativity last season as our Plan A last season either.
The game against Everton where we looked two different teams with Cavani and then by the substitution of Ronaldo as striker was very obvious.
That’s on the manager to find the right formation or use of the players.
If it were me I’d rotate Ronaldo a bit more play 4-3-3 get players like Greenwood closer to the box in goal scoring positions maybe get Bruno in as a false 9 in a 4-2-3-1 again to get him in the goals.
There’s many things we could do maybe if Cavani is fully fit we go 4-2-3-1 in the FA cup game and rest Ronaldo just to see if the players react
Good post. There's no point with him, if he doesn't understand the concept of xG you'll just be talking gibberish.
I compared him with Emannuel Dennis yesterday and has far better finishing stats despite playing for Watford or Maupey (Brighton) or even Callum Wilson, that's the level we're currently at with Ronaldo never mind Benzema, Halland and Lewa.
I, personally don't see how anyone can watch us play and think Ronaldo has been anything more than average for us this season, what grates me is the fact that everyone is acting like he's our saviour when he's part of the problem and a big one at that.
We'd be in the relegation zone without Ronaldo, oh yh cos last season we were in a relegation battle.
I just don’t particularly hang my hat on XG stats I don’t think they paint the entire picture, yes they can give you a brief judgment on a player but it was only yesterday you said Salah was underperforming due to some XG stats I mean that is ridiculous when Salah is the best player in the world at the moment or Messi who is 1 goal to his 4.62xg this season but come on it’s Messi for Gods sake we seen what he can do against Man City in the CL in the flick of a switch..
The criticism of him would make sense if he was the only one underperforming in a good team with other players that were doing well. But when his supporting cast has been absolutely and utterly gash, the level of criticism he’s been getting makes little sense.
What exactly is he supposed to do when Wan Bissaka it kicks into the stands for the umpteenth time.
The irony of it all is that the ones complaining would have also been chastising him had he gone to city and was on 30 goals by now. He can’t win in any situation.
What exactly is he supposed to do when Wan Bissaka it kicks into the stands for the umpteenth time.
The irony of it all is that the ones complaining would have also been chastising him had he gone to city and was on 30 goals by now. He can’t win in any situation.
The thing is I agree with you there. xG stats don't tell the full story. However Ronaldo doesn't really offer anything else in terms of any other stat either. Which is what the main problem is.
Like I said before his overall game is terrible, no link up play, no pressing, no dribbles, no chance creation, no hold up play. The reason why we're concentrating on the xG and his finishing statistics is because that's what people are using to justify him starting. He's a world class finisher, he wins games by himself, he scores goals. Well No, he hasn't done that in the league this season either.
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That’s mainly because Mourinho fell out with Ronaldo in his final season at Madrid like he did with half of the squad there.
Lukaku or Alexis Sanchez?
They seemed to turn out well for us, don’t believe the story anyway but Ronaldo said he was open to coming back in 2013 or something so not totally unbelievable.
If Ronaldo was getting paid the same as Wan-Bissaka, I'm sure the criticism would be proportional. No-one ever complained about people not getting your other strikers enough chances? Why can't Ronaldo get on the same wavelength as the others?
And actually, why can't he stand out at all? Good players stand out at poor/mediocre clubs all the time, in fact most of your best signings have come from bad teams. Saha and Van Der Sar can from a midtable Fulham team because they stood out. Roy Keane came straight from a Forest team literally relegated in last place. Why? He stood out. And there are so many other examples for Man United alone. So why can't the GOAT stand out as a shining beacon in a bad team? And let's be clear, he hasn't shown himself to stand out in a positive way at all.
Mason started this season well, he is young and far from the finished article, but he deserves a shot. He's just turned 20 and started last season an 18 year old, and he has deservedly received critisism for bad performances and bad attitude when warranted. He works a lot harder than Ronaldo and the whole team doesn't have to cover for him defensively every match.
Mason has been consitantly overperforming his xG since he was promoted to the first team and is seen as a great finisher with both feet. He could learn a lot from Ronaldo about movement, positional awareness and presence in the box from the old fox, but he won't learn that from playing a supporting winger role and covering defensively for him.
Regarding Bruno and Rashford's stats from 1/1 - 31/8 January last year:
They definitely both had a down swing compared to the first half of last season, but they have also both been even worse since the arrival of Ronaldo. Rashford played 68 games in all comps last season, Bruno played 70. Rashford underwent surgery directly after the EUROs.
The point of the critisism is that stats and numbers indicates that the whole team underperforms with him, not just him. We score lower on every team parameter with him on the pitch than without him. He scores some goals (not as many as he should), but that has so far been at the cost the whole dynamics of our game and his teammates are suffering from it. If he starts to run like any other forward defensively and starts sharing focus in our attacks, maybe there still is use for him, but he doesn't. Right now he makes our wingers and midfielders constantly overloaded, which makes it impossible to play good football.
He’s stood out actually.
Our top scorer with 17 goals+assists in 21 games at nearly 37 years old (including 6 in 6 in the CL with all goals being game winning or game tying) in a preposterously dysfunctional team is standing out for sure.
He’s the 2nd topscorer for the club in 2021 despite only playing for the last 3 months of the year.
There’s no way I’m believing for one second that the whole team is performing worse on every parameter and metric from last season simply because Ronaldo joined. It’s utterly nonsensical.
Why do people keep mentioning his age as a mitigating factor, as if the caveat is actually relevant regarding how well he's playing? No-one ever said on the Cavani performance thread "he's been good for a 35 year old", and rightly so, because his age is not relevant for anything other than future planning. Senior players are either playing well or not. Good enough or not.
His age is just a mighty extra. Even ignoring his age, he’s still impressively been our topscorer and has 6 in 6 in the CL (again all game winning or game tying goals) and is our 2nd topscorer in 2021. That’s standing out irrespective of age.
Goals scored per 90 - fewer
Goals conceded per 90 - more
Points won per game 90 - fewer
Chances created per 90 - fewer
Chances conceded per 90 - more
Balls won in attacking 3rd per 90 - down
Balls won in mid 3rd per 90 - down
Possession - down
Counter attacks per 90 - fewer
This is valid with him and without him this season, and this season with him compared to last season.
Still he has the 2nd most shots in the league and the 3rd highest npxG90 in the league while sitting on shared 10th in the non penalty goalscoring list in the league.
Does this seem like a balanced team to you?
I think "simply because" is too simplistic, but would you agree that it could be smart to at least investigate if there could be any truth in it? instead of just denying it could even be a posibility?
I find this npxG90 stat very odd. How exactly is it deduced? Because from watching every game, we create feck all for him.
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