Copa America 2015 | Tournament over, Eboue misses the final, everyone lols

Pentame said:
@fontaine I've got a few questions,

Why is Dunga the manager? Brazil has great traditions of playing very attacking football with a lot of space for creativity and risk-taking. Dunga seems like too pragmatic, he prefers defensive safety rather than thrilling attacking football, no?
I understand that he wants to try out new players and experiment with the team, but players like Robinho, Diego Tardelli, Elias etc are way too old, right? Does he think that they give him the best chance of winning games? Where's Hulk, Luiz Gustavo, Oscar, Marcelo? Injured? If he is so determined on trying out new players, he should look at younger alternatives who he can build a new team around. Where's Alex Teixeira, Felipe Anderson, Lucas Moura, Bernard, Danilo, Rafinha?

I hate everything he does, he contradicts everything I think the national team should do. I've always been a huge Brazil fan. I had the World Cup 2002 final recorded at a VHS when I was a kid and I used to watch it over and over again. Rivaldo was my idol.
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Short answer, our FA president is being investigated by the FBI and didn't go to Chile becausae they have an extradition treaty with USA; our ex-president is locked up in Zurich. They have no clue about football or how to run our youth system; they do know a whole lot about money washing and setting up slot machine friendlies.

Long answer, we are failing as a nation to develop players, specially after the Pelé law passed in the late 90s (it meant players are not only owned by clubs, but now they can be shared by many third-parties). That is the biggest problem imo, but to change that you have to start cutting into people's pockets, and that is always hard.

The coaches are horrid too, they are stuck in the past where we won everything on individualities like a Ronaldo run or a perfect Roberto Carlos cross. We simply don't have that level of players anymore, so we have to win as a group - that takes tactics and teamplay - we are lagging behind in that.

My short term solution is to outsource our youth levels and national team to modern thinking non-brazilian - think Sampaoli or Guardiola. Feck it, give the guy twice what he is earning now and a 10 year contract. Try to fix the Pelé law, teams should own at least 60% of players. We have too many people playing football in our country to be this mediocre.
 
Watched the game now. I've only ever seen Firminho (looked out for) in this tournament but he hasn't looked great. It's so hard to tell from these internationals though, I think it's a big risk signing this lad.
 
fontaine said:
Short answer, our FA president is being investigated by the FBI and didn't go to Chile becausae they have an extradition treaty with USA; our ex-president is locked up in Zurich. They have no clue about football or how to run our youth system; they do know a whole lot about money washing and setting up slot machine friendlies.

Long answer, we are failing as a nation to develop players, specially after the Pelé law passed in the late 90s (it meant players are not only owned by clubs, but now they can be shared by many third-parties). That is the biggest problem imo, but to change that you have to start cutting into people's pockets, and that is always hard.

The coaches are horrid too, they are stuck in the past where we won everything on individualities like a Ronaldo run or a perfect Roberto Carlos cross. We simply don't have that level of players anymore, so we have to win as a group - that takes tactics and teamplay - we are lagging behind in that.

My short term solution is to outsource our youth levels and national team to modern thinking non-brazilian - think Sampaoli or Guardiola. Feck it, give the guy twice what he is earning now and a 10 year contract. Try to fix the Pelé law, teams should own at least 60% of players. We have too many people playing football in our country to be this mediocre.
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I'm not sure the Pelé Law being changed would make much difference. We didn't specifically make a Pelé Law but third party ownership has become as big a problem. Clubs are usually mismanaged and the moment they start struggling a third party walks in and takes away the crown jewels in exchange for survival. Back in the 90s a third party rescued Nacional from insolvency giving them 1M in exchange for their 6 most promising youth players. One of them was Recoba.

You know full well even if a law says the club should have a minimum of 60%, in practice third parties will be able to have more control one way or another. Unfortunately, money talks. It started talking back in the 80s creating a massive wage disparity which started the leg drain (it's sure not a brain drain!), then changes to foreigner quotas and EU players having to be treated as outside the quota opened the floodgates.

There's no going back I'm afraid, you will no longer be able to hold on to players long enough to develop your distinct style. Ronaldo left very young but he was a freak of nature, the norm was the Cafú's and Carlos' playing 4-5 full domestic seasons. Forget that, it's not happening again, you will be eviscerated of all your talent before they turn 20 and you can only hope their clubs train them well. They won't train them in Brazilian jogo bonito but more standardised disciplines while surrounded by crap players more often than not (because for every guy who goes to Barca you will have dozens more going to some impossible to spell club somewhere).

Tabárez realised that a long tiem ago and started working on a sustainable process. It's no coincidence you keep seeing the same faces, the same tactics, and each new generation slotting into it and looking at home. Of course, it is largely predicated on us building on a strong defensive platform to counter and hope our occasional genius happens to be a forward and does the rest. When that guy is suspended you end up seeing what you saw in this Copa.

The problem I see for you is you lose players even quicker than we do. There's European scouts and third parties looking for a quick buck everywhere in Brazil. We usually get an U-17 generation that graduates into their club's first teams and goes on to be the U-20, and typically after the U-20 we lose them, but by then we've had them 3-4 years to drill a system into them. I think you lose a lot more in the middle there.

Tabárez has been very consistent in that he needs to have worked with a player for 3-4 years in this process before he gets a look in for the NT. That further screws our depth and we end up having to play Fucile with his 3 starts last season. I agree you should have enough talent domestically to put a strong stable core together, but do you reallly think a manager can survive the years it takes? What about the ones starring in Europe? Surely you should bring them along? It's at that point that it breaks down. I can't see a manager sticking to his guns with locals and, if they do, it takes too long and they'll get sacked before they get results. So you will just have to get used to putting together a bunch of great players who all play in different clubs, leagues, styles and tactics, and hope it works. Somehow.

It's not Dunga ruining football, money is, and it won't change I'm afraid.
 
Derlis Gonzalez's uncle dies from heart attack after watching his nephew score the winning penalty kick. Jesus Christ.
 
I agree with the Pele's law and the other explanations Fontaine gave.

But I also think we (south american nations) have lost the essence of our game. I see that in Argentina we lost this "street football" tradition, the "Potreros" near my house are no used, the grass is high...kids now play with their tablets and smartphones. My generation had nothing of that (90's), we just needed a ball (or something round-shaped) and we could play all day long until our moms called us to go home or until you couln't see anymore due to the lack of daylight. Game's developed in clubs more that in the streets nowadays. Players are like robotized. The physical fact is the one that matters the most.
 
IFC 1905 said:
I agree with the Pele's law and the other explanations Fontaine gave.

But I also think we (south american nations) have lost the essence of our game. I see that in Argentina we lost this "street football" tradition, the "Potreros" near my house are no used, the grass is high...kids now play with their tablets and smartphones. My generation had nothing of that (90's), we just needed a ball (or something round-shaped) and we could play all day long until our moms called us to go home or until you couln't see anymore due to the lack of daylight. Game's developed in clubs more that in the streets nowadays. Players are like robotized. The physical fact is the one that matters the most.
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True, but I wouldn't blame tablets and smartphones, we had Ataris, Amigas, Playstations and so on before them.

The problem there is personal safety, you just can't leave kids out in the streets any more, particularly in the neighbourhoods where the potreros were the norm because you would have a bunch of kids on "paco" coming and nicking the ball, their jumpers/goalposts and their boots. When was the last time you saw a kid riding a bike? It's not tablets stopping them, it's just parents know they would be buying the bike for the first guy to come and knock their kid off it. You sapre yourself the cost, the risk of their kids being injured (or worse, reacting and getting into real trouble). All in all, for all you despise the taablets and smartphones, they end up being encouraged because the great outdoors ain't that any more.
 
I used to love watching Brazil play but these days they are awful, no flair or style, if they didn't have Neymar I doubt they'd look any better than England or Italy IMO, two other nations who are slipping behind. Not surprised Paraguay won, they are a resilient side.
 
antohan said:
True, but I wouldn't blame tablets and smartphones, we had Ataris, Amigas, Playstations and so on before them.

The problem there is personal safety, you just can't leave kids out in the streets any more, particularly in the neighbourhoods where the potreros were the norm because you would have a bunch of kids on "paco" coming and nicking the ball, their jumpers/goalposts and their boots. When was the last time you saw a kid riding a bike? It's not tablets stopping them, it's just parents know they would be buying the bike for the first guy to come and knock their kid off it. You sapre yourself the cost, the risk of their kids being injured (or worse, reacting and getting into real trouble). All in all, for all you despise the taablets and smartphones, they end up being encouraged because the great outdoors ain't that any more.
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Yeah, of course that's the main problem.

But well, I think that has changed our football for sure.
 
Lot of criticism going towards Brazil but one point has to be made and that is the standard of coaching at the international level. Look at Argentina, they hired Gerardo a martino ffs. Maradona before. England have Hodgson in charge. In comparison club sides have Pep Guardiola, Mourinho, Wenger and co. Manchester United being managed by Hodgson would be a joke, like it was with Liverpool but it's fine for England.
 
antohan said:
I'm not sure the Pelé Law being changed would make much difference. We didn't specifically make a Pelé Law but third party ownership has become as big a problem. Clubs are usually mismanaged and the moment they start struggling a third party walks in and takes away the crown jewels in exchange for survival. Back in the 90s a third party rescued Nacional from insolvency giving them 1M in exchange for their 6 most promising youth players. One of them was Recoba.

You know full well even if a law says the club should have a minimum of 60%, in practice third parties will be able to have more control one way or another. Unfortunately, money talks. It started talking back in the 80s creating a massive wage disparity which started the leg drain (it's sure not a brain drain!), then changes to foreigner quotas and EU players having to be treated as outside the quota opened the floodgates.

There's no going back I'm afraid, you will no longer be able to hold on to players long enough to develop your distinct style. Ronaldo left very young but he was a freak of nature, the norm was the Cafú's and Carlos' playing 4-5 full domestic seasons. Forget that, it's not happening again, you will be eviscerated of all your talent before they turn 20 and you can only hope their clubs train them well. They won't train them in Brazilian jogo bonito but more standardised disciplines while surrounded by crap players more often than not (because for every guy who goes to Barca you will have dozens more going to some impossible to spell club somewhere).

Tabárez realised that a long tiem ago and started working on a sustainable process. It's no coincidence you keep seeing the same faces, the same tactics, and each new generation slotting into it and looking at home. Of course, it is largely predicated on us building on a strong defensive platform to counter and hope our occasional genius happens to be a forward and does the rest. When that guy is suspended you end up seeing what you saw in this Copa.

The problem I see for you is you lose players even quicker than we do. There's European scouts and third parties looking for a quick buck everywhere in Brazil. We usually get an U-17 generation that graduates into their club's first teams and goes on to be the U-20, and typically after the U-20 we lose them, but by then we've had them 3-4 years to drill a system into them. I think you lose a lot more in the middle there.

Tabárez has been very consistent in that he needs to have worked with a player for 3-4 years in this process before he gets a look in for the NT. That further screws our depth and we end up having to play Fucile with his 3 starts last season. I agree you should have enough talent domestically to put a strong stable core together, but do you reallly think a manager can survive the years it takes? What about the ones starring in Europe? Surely you should bring them along? It's at that point that it breaks down. I can't see a manager sticking to his guns with locals and, if they do, it takes too long and they'll get sacked before they get results. So you will just have to get used to putting together a bunch of great players who all play in different clubs, leagues, styles and tactics, and hope it works. Somehow.

It's not Dunga ruining football, money is, and it won't change I'm afraid.
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Yes, and to counter the 'exodus', there are youth players now getting paid 5 figure salaries at the age of 14 and under. Heck, if that is not harmful to player developing, I don't know what is. There are very few hungry young players now.

Even the Americans which are rich made rules so that youngsters can't get paid big money in the NBA; we desperately need some cap on that, but its hard to do with Europeans sniffing around kids so much.
 
Jara banned for the rest of the tournament after fingering Cavani's ass. Good riddance.
 
Why does Vidal do that? I don't watch Serie A that often, is he such a monumental fecktard this often?
 
Role reversal there, Guerrero with the cross, Farfán with the header hits the post! Peru looking lively on the counter.
 
Tough call either way. Perhaps no intent, but it was reckless and dangerous I guess. Did he give a straight red? Zambrano was already on a yellow, so a 2nd booking would've made more sense...
 
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