Confirmed: Moyes sacked.

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SalfordRed1960 said:
Well I hope, if it is true that he is going, that there are no senior players that come out with negative comments that try and justify their own performances.

Apart from DDG, there is not one player that can hold his head up this year. They have been shocking. The effort against Everton was disgusting. Lost every 70-30 ball in our favour because many couldn't be arsed.

Never thought Moyes was the right person, but always supported him through thick and thin. But, when I see $300K a week spoilt brats not giving a shit it pi*ses me off more.
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I don't blame those players, who had done us proud for many years prior to this Moyes up. Considering how aghast many of us were when Moyes was appointed (together with the rest of the Everton mafia), I can only imagine what they felt seeing a year of their career wasted under a manager appointed without any qualifications for the job and utterly and visibly out of his depth. All this compounded through public criticism of them from a manager without a medal to his name (as well as the sly off the record briefings that Moyes used to give to journo mates to the effect that he was shocked by the quality of the players he inherited). The salary levels are irrelevant as well - it is just basic psychology that would apply in any workplace and the squad is evidently thoroughly demoralised. Some need moving on regardless but I am 100% sure the majority will start to show their true talents now the nightmare is over.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I don't blame those players, who had done us proud for many years prior to this Moyes up. Considering how aghast many of us were when Moyes was appointed (together with the rest of the Everton mafia), I can only imagine what they felt seeing a year of their career wasted under a manager appointed without any qualifications for the job and utterly and visibly out of his depth. All this compounded through public criticism of them from a manager without a medal to his name (as well as the sly off the record briefings that Moyes used to give to journo mates to the effect that he was shocked by the quality of the players he inherited). The salary levels are irrelevant as well - it is just basic psychology that would apply in any workplace and the squad is evidently thoroughly demoralised. Some need moving on regardless but I am 100% sure the majority will start to show their true talents now the nightmare is over.
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According to some here, footballers shouldn't have emotions, they are paid well and should behave and give 110% every game, no exception.
 
Shane88 said:
That would be interesting to see.

Moyes: "We had some good times, didn't we?"

Players: "........"

Moyes: "Okay. Bye."

Players: "........"
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:D
Yeah, it's hard to imagine the players wanting to talk to him much.

Linkin Park's "In The End" would serve as a very good background music in this scene or in any of the Moyes videos.

It has the lyrics
One thing I don't know why
It doesn’t even matter how hard you try...
I tried so hard
And got so far
But in the end
It doesn't even matter
I had to fall
To lose it all
But in the end
It doesn't even matter
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It's probably one of Moyes' favourite songs :D
 
I can imagine Moyes and Co feeling betrayed by this. He must have joined thinking that if there is any club in the world that would afford him time, patience and a nurturing hand, its United. He would not be wrong to think that too. From his point of view, its the Club that's reneging on its word.

In that sense, I'm glad I'm not one of the decision makers. ITs difficult to judge whether a formula that's worked for you in the past, recommended by a successful manager is worth sticking to or not.

Aah well, hope we get Klopp.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I don't blame those players, who had done us proud for many years prior to this Moyes up. Considering how aghast many of us were when Moyes was appointed (together with the rest of the Everton mafia), I can only imagine what they felt seeing a year of their career wasted under a manager appointed without any qualifications for the job and utterly and visibly out of his depth. All this compounded through public criticism of them from a manager without a medal to his name (as well as the sly off the record briefings that Moyes used to give to journo mates to the effect that he was shocked by the quality of the players he inherited). The salary levels are irrelevant as well - it is just basic psychology that would apply in any workplace and the squad is evidently thoroughly demoralised. Some need moving on regardless but I am 100% sure the majority will start to show their true talents now the nightmare is over.
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We are on a totally different page then. Forget Moyes, no one can say that he has done a good job and at the end of the day, missing out on top 4 is probably the straw that broke the camel's back.

That all said, we all have our pride, and regardless of the manager, we would all, as players, give 100% on the park. As I said before I don't think any players has given 100%, bar DDG. Some maybe because it is their last year at the club, others because their legs have gone, but most of the other players have not only put in little effort they have shirked any form of responsibility.

As for salaries, it is not irrelevant. Someone gets paid a shit load of dosh because of their ability and importance to the team. When they do not even try and earn that money with effort, it is time for some one to start to look at them in a slightly different light. In all the years that Rooney has been at United, he does not turn up against the Scouse teams. We can all slag Moyes off for picking him, but once picked, it is up to Rooney to put in some effort. Again, we can all do the easy thing and blame Moyes for not taking him off, but it still reflects badly on Rooney and all the other players who didn't turn up.
 
Interval Level said:
I can imagine Moyes and Co feeling betrayed by this. He must have joined thinking that if there is any club in the world that would afford him time, patience and a nurturing hand, its United. He would not be wrong to think that too. From his point of view, its the Club that's reneging on its word.

In that sense, I'm glad I'm not one of the decision makers. ITs difficult to judge whether a formula that's worked for you in the past, recommended by a successful manager is worth sticking to or not.

Aah well, hope we get Klopp.
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I'm sure he would have been told the expectations right at the start itself. The minimum at least. And ending the season 7th, out of the CL, all those defeats to lower clubs, etc have exceeded expectations - at the wrong end. Surely there is a line to be drawn somewhere?
 
Interval Level said:
I can imagine Moyes and Co feeling betrayed by this. He must have joined thinking that if there is any club in the world that would afford him time, patience and a nurturing hand, its United. He would not be wrong to think that too. From his point of view, its the Club that's reneging on its word.

In that sense, I'm glad I'm not one of the decision makers. ITs difficult to judge whether a formula that's worked for you in the past, recommended by a successful manager is worth sticking to or not.

Aah well, hope we get Klopp.
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The club gave him ample time and patience. They spend over 60m + they lost every chance of getting into the CL because of it. However like in every job, there are minimum standards that needs to be reached even as a newbie. CL qualification is the absolute minimum at every single top club.

I kind of liked Moyes and I really dont know why. He's got this aura of being a good man which is kind of strange considered that he badmouthed SAF and the players who bled blood for this club. Imagine if Mourinho came at OT and said that he's in 7th place because SAF left him with a weak side. OT would be at arms.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I don't blame those players, who had done us proud for many years prior to this Moyes up. Considering how aghast many of us were when Moyes was appointed (together with the rest of the Everton mafia), I can only imagine what they felt seeing a year of their career wasted under a manager appointed without any qualifications for the job and utterly and visibly out of his depth. All this compounded through public criticism of them from a manager without a medal to his name (as well as the sly off the record briefings that Moyes used to give to journo mates to the effect that he was shocked by the quality of the players he inherited). The salary levels are irrelevant as well - it is just basic psychology that would apply in any workplace and the squad is evidently thoroughly demoralised. Some need moving on regardless but I am 100% sure the majority will start to show their true talents now the nightmare is over.
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sorry mate i think you got it wrong. Whoever puts on a united shirt should give 100%, moyes or no moyes. They owe it to the fans
 
I got a bit of flack on here for saying moyes pulled the plug on Thiago signing - Daniel Taylor confirmed that one last night.
 
SalfordRed1960 said:
As for salaries, it is not irrelevant. Someone gets paid a shit load of dosh because of their ability and importance to the team. When they do not even try and earn that money with effort, it is time for some one to start to look at them in a slightly different light.
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It certainly is relevent, it's human nature not to be motivated by something we get used to.

Look at it this way, when you go to work are you highly motivated by the fact that you earn hundreds of times more money than the hundreds of millions of people living in third world conditions? Probably not.

It's a classic Maslows Hierarchy of Need view point. Money stops you being unhappy, but it doesn't motivate, consistently anyway.
 
LonelyFire said:
I got a bit of flack on here for saying moyes pulled the plug on Thiago signing - Daniel Taylor confirmed that one last night.
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I did too, despite that story coming out from the club in the first place. They wanted to show he hadn't just turned us down.
 
Interval Level said:
I can imagine Moyes and Co feeling betrayed by this. He must have joined thinking that if there is any club in the world that would afford him time, patience and a nurturing hand, its United. He would not be wrong to think that too. From his point of view, its the Club that's reneging on its word.

In that sense, I'm glad I'm not one of the decision makers. ITs difficult to judge whether a formula that's worked for you in the past, recommended by a successful manager is worth sticking to or not.

Aah well, hope we get Klopp.
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He's deluded if he thinks 7th is acceptable to a club like United, there's patience IF the club is 3rd/4th building towards a title, then there's blind faith if we let him get away with 7th.
 
bishblaize said:
It certainly is relevent, it's human nature not to be motivated by something we get used to.

Look at it this way, when you go to work are you highly motivated by the fact that you earn hundreds of times more money than the hundreds of millions of people living in third world conditions? Probably not.

It's a classic Maslows Hierarchy of Need view point. Money stops you being unhappy, but it doesn't motivate, consistently anyway.
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and that s what was fergie s main strength - his ability to motivate players. he was a one off really.
 
coolredwine said:
I'm sure he would have been told the expectations right at the start itself. The minimum at least. And ending the season 7th, out of the CL, all those defeats to lower clubs, etc have exceeded expectations - at the wrong end. Surely there is a line to be drawn somewhere?
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Admittedly. He knew he had to deliver. But he would also be under the impression that the club won't clean their hands off of him once the shit hits the fan. Yes, he didn't meet expectations this season, but surely he would have felt that he could do better. And that the club, having a 'stated' tradition to stick by the manager would allow him a chance to get better.

devilish said:
The club gave him ample time and patience. They spend over 60m + they lost every chance of getting into the CL because of it. However like in every job, there are minimum standards that needs to be reached even as a newbie. CL qualification is the absolute minimum at every single top club.

I kind of liked Moyes and I really dont know why. He's got this aura of being a good man which is kind of strange considered that he badmouthed SAF and the players who bled blood for this club. Imagine if Mourinho came at OT and said that he's in 7th place because SAF left him with a weak side. OT would be at arms.
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The club did not give him time. You can't say a year was enough when he was started off by being given a six year contract. Further, I was thinking from his point of view. He would feel betrayed and justifiably so. He may have come into the job thinking that the job would allow him time and help to make the step up. But then realised that they wanted a finished article and not him.

I'm not saying that the sacking would not be justified. Yes, every club would have a minimum expectation. But you can't start of by saying we'll stick by the manager no matter what and then sack him just a year down the line. What it really implies is that the selection committee fecked up as well.
 
Cal? said:
He's deluded if he thinks 7th is acceptable to a club like United, there's patience IF the club is 3rd/4th building towards a title, then there's blind faith if we let him get away with 7th.
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On the other hand, he may have thought he'd get another shot to prove that he can make it to the top 4. After all, he started of building his team with a 3-4 year horizon in mind.
 
SalfordRed1960 said:
Says it all really.

But as per my earlier post, if players did not get behind him day one, then I don't want them at the club either. Sick of the prima donna's that are in the game at the moment.
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sad but true. Fergie had mentioned this in his book - player power is stronger than ever
 
Interval Level said:
On the other hand, he may have thought he'd get another shot to prove that he can make it to the top 4. After all, he started of building his team with a 3-4 year horizon in mind.
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So he brought two players in or around their prime so they could be crucial in 4 years?

He hasn't started building anything. He took a title winning team, added two expensive players and made it instantly worse. If he were building anything and there were signs of what's to come he might have got a benefit of doubt.
 
dev1l said:
sorry mate i think you got it wrong. Whoever puts on a united shirt should give 100%, moyes or no moyes. They owe it to the fans
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They are not robots and modern football requires more than giving 100% and sweating for the shirt etc - they still need intelligent training sessions, coherent tactical instructions and consistency in team selection. It seems they had none of these things under Moyes.
 
Interval Level said:
Admittedly. He knew he had to deliver. But he would also be under the impression that the club won't clean their hands off of him once the shit hits the fan. Yes, he didn't meet expectations this season, but surely he would have felt that he could do better. And that the club, having a 'stated' tradition to stick by the manager would allow him a chance to get better.


The club did not give him time. You can't say a year was enough when he was started off by being given a six year contract. Further, I was thinking from his point of view. He would feel betrayed and justifiably so. He may have come into the job thinking that the job would allow him time and help to make the step up. But then realised that they wanted a finished article and not him.

I'm not saying that the sacking would not be justified. Yes, every club would have a minimum expectation. But you can't start of by saying we'll stick by the manager no matter what and then sack him just a year down the line. What it really implies is that the selection committee fecked up as well.
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Yes, but there should have been signs of progress. There should have been some improvement - at least inch by inch. Honestly, I wouldn't have mind a 5th/6th/7th place finish had we shown some sort of a fight in the matches. But the majority of them have been ridiculously insipid, lacked any sort of motivation that the team had last season.

Moyes' Everton was known for it's grit. Teams were afraid of playing at Goodison Park because they were so tough to beat. Teams have had a tough time over there. But did we see any of that here? Rooney-RvP can't play together (although I put that on both of them as well), but some of that blame would lie on Moyes as well. 2 supposedly best players averaging just a single completed pass between them in matches. Really?
 
Interval Level said:
Admittedly. He knew he had to deliver. But he would also be under the impression that the club won't clean their hands off of him once the shit hits the fan. Yes, he didn't meet expectations this season, but surely he would have felt that he could do better. And that the club, having a 'stated' tradition to stick by the manager would allow him a chance to get better.


The club did not give him time. You can't say a year was enough when he was started off by being given a six year contract. Further, I was thinking from his point of view. He would feel betrayed and justifiably so. He may have come into the job thinking that the job would allow him time and help to make the step up. But then realised that they wanted a finished article and not him.

I'm not saying that the sacking would not be justified. Yes, every club would have a minimum expectation. But you can't start of by saying we'll stick by the manager no matter what and then sack him just a year down the line. What it really implies is that the selection committee fecked up as well.
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Ofcourse the selection committee fecked up.

You give him time if he shows at least some positives. If we finish 5th after a close fight for 4th then yes perhaps he does deserve another go. Or if he tries to implement some particular system regardless of results. But none of that happened here. We were never in contention for top 4 since Jan end. Worse Moyes just stumbled from one system to another to try to get any win he can.

I don't think any one could foresee that Moyes could turn out to be this bad. Worst case the club thought would be finishing 4th which would not have affected the bottom line. Moyes surpassed all the expectations.

In current climate, he did get a proper go at United, at any other top club he would have been out by Jan. No top club would have tolerated going from 1st to 7th.
 
Interval Level said:
On the other hand, he may have thought he'd get another shot to prove that he can make it to the top 4. After all, he started of building his team with a 3-4 year horizon in mind.
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Whether he realizes or not, United should not be finishing outside the top 4 even during "rebuilding", we're one of the biggest clubs around alongside the likes of Bayern, Real, Barca and we have to expect similar standards.

Making top 4 should not be his goal, it should be the minimum requirement.
 
Livvie said:
But consistently over a season?

Surely to be good manager, you need to have the odd trophy?
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So much context should be taken into account when judging a manager, besides the trophy cabinet. Some managers do a good job keeping teams up, doing miracles with a tight budget, nurturing young talents, setting up difficult teams against much stronger opponents etc. While weaker teams do not always bring trophies home each season, a good run in a cup or a decent place in the final league table testifies as much as a trophy about the abilities of the manager. Moyes certainly did that with Everton over a long period and should rightfully be considered a good manager. However, managing a club like Manchester United requires another type of manager altogether in terms of personality, mentality, man management skills, pressure resilience, tactical nous, transfer market approach etc. Moyes' story at Old Trafford is one of an unfortunate mismatch. SAF along with whoever took the decision to recruit him must have thought that he would be able to make the transition. This season has been an ongoing proof that it was not the case. This doesn't diminish Moyes' abilities or managerial aptitude, only means that his talents would shine better under more suitable skies where he is more of a fit. And that's all we should wish him after this painful season.
 
bishblaize said:
I did too, despite that story coming out from the club in the first place. They wanted to show he hadn't just turned us down.
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It really was a flabbergasting decision. All i got on here was "as soon as Bayern were in, he was going there..." - nope. Thanks to Gollum.
 
No one thought it was going to be this bad. Not Fergie, not Gill, Woodward, the fans nor Moyes himself. Everyone believed we'd be top 4 minimum. Seventh and shambles just doesn't cut it.
 
I am getting a bit sick of the rider "its a shame because he is a good man" that is attached to every comment about his multiple failings and the fact he is getting the boot.

It's not a shame, it's completely deserved.

He isn't being wronged in any way shape or form, it's 100% his own fault and a feel no sympathy for him at all.
 
MoskvaRed said:
They are not robots and modern football requires more than giving 100% and sweating for the shirt etc - they still need intelligent training sessions, coherent tactical instructions and consistency in team selection. It seems they had none of these things under Moyes.
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that s your assumption. Mine is that there are very few managers out there able to motivate players as fergie did. That were moyes failed imo.
i m convinced that moyes successor will find it much easier.
 
At the end of the day, if the reports are anything to go by, he missed key performance targets which he agreed to in his contract and that were set out by the club so the decision should be easy really. All we need to do now is wait for official confirmation, got a bottle of bubbly on ice I do.
 
SalfordRed1960 said:
We are on a totally different page then. Forget Moyes, no one can say that he has done a good job and at the end of the day, missing out on top 4 is probably the straw that broke the camel's back.

That all said, we all have our pride, and regardless of the manager, we would all, as players, give 100% on the park. As I said before I don't think any players has given 100%, bar DDG. Some maybe because it is their last year at the club, others because their legs have gone, but most of the other players have not only put in little effort they have shirked any form of responsibility.

As for salaries, it is not irrelevant. Someone gets paid a shit load of dosh because of their ability and importance to the team. When they do not even try and earn that money with effort, it is time for some one to start to look at them in a slightly different light. In all the years that Rooney has been at United, he does not turn up against the Scouse teams. We can all slag Moyes off for picking him, but once picked, it is up to Rooney to put in some effort. Again, we can all do the easy thing and blame Moyes for not taking him off, but it still reflects badly on Rooney and all the other players who didn't turn up.
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Salary is not the primary determinant on motivation. It's a lot more complicated than that. Anyway, part of the challenge of managing an elite club is to motivate and keep hungry a group of young men who earn millions. Fergie managed it brilliantly, even though he had started out in a very different era. Moyes, who had no experience of managing big names (another reason why it was such a risky appointment) was clearly unable to do so.
 
Interval Level said:
On the other hand, he may have thought he'd get another shot to prove that he can make it to the top 4. After all, he started of building his team with a 3-4 year horizon in mind.
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That's a clear sign how out of his depth and how little he understood the job at hand.

You don't get 3 of 4 years of garbage while you mess around swapping out half the squad to fill it full of yes men.

You've got to get the best out of what you've got, carefully manage the retirement and development and integration of players as applicable and still attempt to win every single match.

He has failed utterly in every aspect of his job.
 
I just went onto the Sky Sports website now and I saw a huge headline reading, "More Time For Moyes."

I shit you not my heart briefly sank into my stomach, but it was just Gary banging on about giving him more time. Phew.
 
Good morning chaps.
Only page 87, I take it there's no further development overnight then?
 
Werewolf said:
So much context should be taken into account when judging a manager, besides the trophy cabinet. Some managers do a good job keeping teams up, doing miracles with a tight budget, nurturing young talents, setting up difficult teams against much stronger opponents etc. While weaker teams do not always bring trophies home each season, a good run in a cup or a decent place in the final league table testifies as much as a trophy about the abilities of the manager. Moyes certainly did that with Everton over a long period and should rightfully be considered a good manager. However, managing a club like Manchester United requires another type of manager altogether in terms of personality, mentality, man management skills, pressure resilience, tactical nous, transfer market approach etc. Moyes' story at Old Trafford is one of an unfortunate mismatch. SAF along with whoever took the decision to recruit him must have thought that he would be able to make the transition. This season has been an ongoing proof that it was not the case. This doesn't diminish Moyes' abilities or managerial aptitude, only means that his talents would shine better under more suitable skies where he is more of a fit. And that's all we should wish him after this painful season.
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Very much agree with this, great post.
 
Anderson's Cat said:
No one thought it was going to be this bad. Not Fergie, not Gill, Woodward, the fans nor Moyes himself. Everyone believed we'd be top 4 minimum. Seventh and shambles just doesn't cut it.
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This. Still can't believe we're in 7th, below the likes of Tottenham who have effectively sacked 2 managers as they consider their season a failure!!

There's been a load of revisionism, a bit created by Moyes to suggest this is a weak squad, but it's not 7th place weak!
 
Werewolf said:
So much context should be taken into account when judging a manager, besides the trophy cabinet. Some managers do a good job keeping teams up, doing miracles with a tight budget, nurturing young talents, setting up difficult teams against much stronger opponents etc. While weaker teams do not always bring trophies home each season, a good run in a cup or a decent place in the final league table testifies as much as a trophy about the abilities of the manager. Moyes certainly did that with Everton over a long period and should rightfully be considered a good manager. However, managing a club like Manchester United requires another type of manager altogether in terms of personality, mentality, man management skills, pressure resilience, tactical nous, transfer market approach etc. Moyes' story at Old Trafford is one of an unfortunate mismatch. SAF along with whoever took the decision to recruit him must have thought that he would be able to make the transition. This season has been an ongoing proof that it was not the case. This doesn't diminish Moyes' abilities or managerial aptitude, only means that his talents would shine better under more suitable skies where he is more of a fit. And that's all we should wish him after this painful season.
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OOT but have you ever played a game of WW in here?

lol
 
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