The argument is circling hopelessly here, the bottom line is that Moyes failed to deliver. And he was rightfully dismissed. Nobody can argue that.
Confirmed: Moyes sacked.
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Just watch now we appoint a top tier manager and bring in a few quality players over the summer. Within a year or two, we will be back challenging for the title and wondering why the hell Moyes made it look so difficult. And, as for the old days when we always gave a manager time (apart from the ones we didn't give time to), the rules of the game are a bit different - miss out on top 4 for a few years and it can be a long and uncertain road back while your rivals get massive injections of TV money.
Indeed. We stuck with him longer than Chelsea or Liverpool did with AVB, Hodgson or Scolari. And our match day fans were validated in the belief that booing or OT abuse would be counter productive. All in all I think the fans have been better behaved than could be reasonably expected. Obviously some took it too far (the plane, and any personal abuse) but in the end it seems the club was pretty much in tandem with us; Publicly supportive, but privately aware things needed a changing by around March when it clearly wasn't helping.
As for how we handled the sacking. Of course the LMA Union boss is going to bitch. That's his job, but if there was really a clause in Moyes's contract he would've known much earlier than Monday. Besides, it was Easter. We sacked him at the earliest opportunity once the decision was made. It was hardly a rumbling on protracted saga. As you say, I can't really see what benefit there'd be to briefing the press before Moyes, so I'd rather wait and see what we find out about it before assuming we did.
Of course not. It may be used as a joke when things improve but they were just misguided in romantic loyalties.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean here, I think modern attitudes towards football, mainly the result of the unquestioning swallowing of the 24X7 sports entertainment industry, is bad for the sport, yes. I cant ever recall 'fans' paying for a plane to fly over OT calling for a manager to be sacked for example, and I don't see it as a positive thing for the club. Personally I was embarrassed by it, I have always mostly admired how Utd went about their business under SAF, and even Gill.
The very public manner in which we are going about our business these days seems to serve no other purpose than to appease fans and put out fires in the media.
The comparison is that Farrell was a good but largely unpopular manager who was shunted out the door having not had enough time, and ultimately that what came after was far worse. There are also the comparisons with players attitudes and the influence of the former manager but thats more the nitty gritty.
The comparison I'm making is more to do with the general situation and what comes next. I'm sure there are loads of supporters delighted to see the back of Moyes, I wont miss the tumescent shite we've had to watch this season, but assuming we're going to go out and get a top manager, and that they will achieve instant success is very naive.
Utd are in a corner now, they have no option but to go hire a high profile manager, in that situation we will have to offer a very attractive package in terms of transfer funds and control. Lets say we go out, hire Klopp, everyones fecking thrilled with themselves and he goes out, blows 100m and things don't work out - where then? We're not, and aren't likely to be like Chelsea, City, PSG, etc who can afford blow 200million on new players and managers every year. That's why Utd need a long term strategic manager, not a quick fix.
Anyway, I'm giving up talking about football on the internet.
It is highly likely Ancellotti is expressing a natural sympathy for a fellow manager. Who would crow over another manager being sacked?
They'll be wanking themselves into a coma when big Moyes steers Newcastle to 8th next season. Moyes > MUFC
Actually I was responding to somebody who said that only DM defenders were whining about united being a club that gives managers time. It was actually the exact same thing that Anchelotti said, he just thought that United was a different kind of club in relation to giving managers time. .
It really is as simple and straightforward as that
Jose probably would if Wenger is sacked.
"Specialist in failure" is the quote of the season.
As far as I'm aware, United didn't 'leak' the new per say. Rather these journalists when contacting club sources asking whether Moyes is going to be sacked have received a 'No', or some form of strong statement. In this case these United officials were either wishy washy or they simply didn't respond which would have hinted to the journalists that somethings's changed. All the stories came out at roughly the same time which puts some confusion as to what happened. It sounds like United were naive or misunderstood the implications rather than going out and calling up the journalists to tell them Moyes is getting the boot.
The point being not having Europa would be more damaging due to our inability to rotate. Having Europa wouldn't harm our chances of top four as the point of those games would be to give the second eleven a chance and to be honest, it seems to be a good second eleven (especially with a sprinkling of the first).
The decision to sack Moyes was likely made up a while back however they waited for top four to be mathematically impossible so they could justify only one season of severance.
Plenty convinced? Those plenty had no idea what was happening behind the scenes. There were plenty (especially non-united fans) that thought he was gone whatever happened so this point of yours is useless. I'm not sure how you can argue the board would have trusted him next season with how this season has gone, unless you are insane...
You wanted Everton to win and you wanted them to win big. Who knows what other games you've wanted Man United to get hammered in, and one can only assume you will give the next manager that treatment too.
I cannot understand how a real fan could bring themselves to support Everton over United in that last game.
You miss the point. I did not talk scenarios, I said your action of not wanting United to focus on preparing for the following season to their absolute max but instead focusing on Liverpool shows your desire for Liverpool to lose is stronger than United to win. Such therefore suggests you would rather Chelsea win twice than Liverpool followed by United otherwise you would want United to do all they possibly can to reclaim the trophy next season and you would accept there are no meaningless games. You would accept the focus must be to win every remaining game and to put in a performance that will return the confidence the squad has lost.
You would sooner the squad not find that confidence that is so important and Liverpool lose than find the confidence and be better for it.
I get the rivalry. But you don't understand elite performance, I'm approaching this from the mentality of the manager. And it's about the players and it's about being best prepared for the following season. I mean, you think there are such things as meaningless games therefore you do not understand elite performance. To think the last game of the season is meaningless is to think friendlies are meaningless also. Pre-season would be meaningless to you however I cannot accept such a viewpoint.
Alex Ferguson went mental when United won the league but did so with a draw. These are the standards you don't care for. He didn't care the league was won, he was furious with how they performed. Just like his rant when Aberdeen won the cup, he was furious at the performance.
Everybody on here understands the United - Liverpool rivalry and you are foolish to think they do not. The point here however is to understand the mentality of the champions, clearly you do not understand this. Champions win, these are the standards set and so it is important when they have failed in pursuit of the title one season then all focus and all attention is directed to winning it in the following season, one cannot do anything that would compromise this.
You would tell your players to compromise this. You would sooner Louis van Gaal have United lose the game than win it, just so you feel better. I can tell you now that Louis van Gaal wouldn't let you anywhere near the squad, and quite rightly so
You look at this from only the perspective of the fan ignorant of elite performance and mentality. There are no meaningless games, Liverpool had little to play for last season but they didn't throw in the towel, they were way off the pace after the first half of the season losing 6 of their 19 games but in the second half they lost 3. They could have given up and accepted the season to be a write off however they focused only on themselves, they focused on improving and it seems that was the right thing.
Ryan Giggs' focus now should be on winning these last four and ensuring the team are performing to the best of their ability. It is not a characteristic of the champion to lose games on purpose. It is the characteristic of the champion to win and this is what he must do.
Should you understand elite performance then you would understand why losing is not tolerated. Especially the Everton scenario that just happened, which on your part was disgusting behaviour, but even in your fantasy (very improbable) Liverpool one. The team should not lose focus of their own preparations, they should not get distracted by what their opponents are doing. They must focus on being the best they can because next season will be very tough and they will need to be on form if they are to rise above the rest.
You are insaneThat has cost us a CL place next season, if we acted in January, we'd probably have rescued a CL place.
It actually is, football is a results business. Moyes failed to achieve results, among other things.
I don't think anyone wants a quick fix, but Moyes wasn't any kind of fix. That's the point. It was incredibly obvious he was not the right person for United from pretty early on. His style, his beliefs, his attitudes, his charisma. None of it worked. Literally none of it. There was no light at the end of the tunnel. The thing that confuses me and presumably others is that you seem (?) slightly more concerned with how he's been treated (which I actually don't think is badly, and we certainly don't know that) than recognising that all the evidence pointed to sticking with him for longer being even more damaging.
He was crap. Sure he was decent, and honest, and hardworking, and any other nice words you can chose to mention. But he was also, more importantly, crap.
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This happens at most clubs though to be fair.
Looking at my reply it reads as being sarcastic but I was in agreement with you
I think you deserve to have your username changed back now he's been sacked.
Of course I'm concerned with how the club conducts itself, maybe thats a bit old fashioned but I think it has been a part of Utd for the past 25 years and I'd like to see it continue, sadly it doesn't look like it will.
Also, we will now have no way of knowing if things would have gotten more damaging had he been given more time, or whether they would have been better or worse than who ever replaces him.
Utd needed a long term strategic coach last summer, we hired Moyes and now sack him because he didn't achieve instant success. I'm not saying there were any signs of improvement - there weren't - but there weren't likely to have been given how the club completely fecked up the summer transfer window. So we're back to square one - where do go from here? What next, what if the next guy finishes 7th next year having spent 150million? More planes over OT? Throw another 150million at it?
This thread has now become a tribute act to the 'Have that, you haters!' posts you see in Matchday threads. Well done.
But how much of that is down to Moyes (and Woodward)? Do you think if we had hired Jose or Ancelloti we'd of had such a terrible transfer window? Would anyone else have bought Felliani?
I regret one thing. We should have sacked him on a day Liverpool wins the league. Sacking Moyes would be a bigger news.
2 things, we did not need a long term coach last summer, what we needed was someone who CAN handle taking over from Sir Alex and deliver results - Jose Mourinho would have been that person. He might have stayed long term if the club is successful and he settles down. Success leads to long term, not the other way round.
Secondly, Moyes didn't fail to achieve instant success, Moyes failed catastrophically to deliver the minimum requirement. Finishing 2nd, 3rd or even 4th will be "failing to achieve instant success". 7th is just unacceptable.
We should have sacked him back in January, we'd probably have salvaged a CL place.
Well that's just pessimistic thinking. Moyes failed to reach even the lowest targets, and he was far away from then. He failed in literally every single aspect. There were no signs anything was going to change for the better, the only signs were it was getting worse as the year went on. It would be hard to do worse if he tried his hardest to feck up the club, pretty much. Completely disagree that we needed a long term coach right away. The person replacing Fergie was never going to work. Way too much pressure, it was always a job for the person after the first person got sacked. We just made it worse on ourselves by hiring somebody who never showed anything deserving of being a United boss. It's not just sacking him because he didn't achieve instant success. People would have been okay with him if the football was good and even if we put up a fight to stay in the champions league. We didn't, and because of him, we won't even be in the Europa league, which is just shocking for a club of our stature.
You're just saying ifs and buts, but the truth is that the next guy won't finish 7th next year spending that much money simply because the next guy, probably Van Gaal, is a top manager. I'm not sure why Fergie and the board thought they could completely change David Moyes and everything he's done before, it's not like he was some young and unknown manager. He's a mid table manager who played negative football always, and he was just out of his depth at this level.
Also, people need to stop saying this stuff about this is how the club has conducted itself for the past 25 years. We were like that because we had Sir Alex Ferguson in charge for that long, and he was the greatest manager ever. The reason he stayed that long was because he was successful. It wasn't just blind faith that kept him in the job and then we got lucky.
That's so true, if only we can turn back the clock and got Jose like we should have done, we'd probably be battling for the title and looking forward to the CL SF 2nd leg now.
Moyes had an awful season. 13 points out of a total of 51 against the top ten. The reigning champions in seventh place. And, if the many stories are to be believed he had completely lost the dressing room. There is no coming back from that.
We would like a long term manager but a good one is more important
We would like a long term manager but a good one is more important
There is a weird line of thinking that indicates that Sir Alex Ferguson's success was a product of the time frame he was given to succeed. It wasn't. The 27 years was a product of his incredible managerial abilities.
Im sympathetic to what @Eyepopper is saying but ultimately I agree with @Cal?
I was all for giving Moyes time, judging him on his second season, extenuating circumstances, all the rest of it. But the scale of his underachievement is too big, and with absolutely zero evidence that anything was getting even remotely better, this was inevitable. Its sad in a way but this is football, there's no point in thinking we are different to anyone else, let alone better than them, because we arent, and it was pretty naive to think otherwise. Shame the illusion has been shattered, really.
I was all for giving Moyes time, judging him on his second season, extenuating circumstances, all the rest of it. But the scale of his underachievement is too big, and with absolutely zero evidence that anything was getting even remotely better, this was inevitable. Its sad in a way but this is football, there's no point in thinking we are different to anyone else, let alone better than them, because we arent, and it was pretty naive to think otherwise. Shame the illusion has been shattered, really.
Ive just read that Fergie wanted to get rid of Moyes 2 months ago and openly admitted that appointing Moyes was a big mistske.
Does anyone know where thst story comes from?? Polish press is not providing the source.
Does anyone know where thst story comes from?? Polish press is not providing the source.
That's so true, if only we can turn back the clock and got Jose like we should have done, we'd probably be battling for the title and looking forward to the CL SF 2nd leg now.
We'd have had to endure the 90 minutes shit on a stick football I sat through last night as fans of the painfully cynical away team and still be in Liverpool's slipstream in the league, while Mourinho acts the dick and bickers with club hierarchy, so I'm not sure I like your alternate reality.
It's a reality where we would still have European football next season.
As if whatever we played was any better. Shit on a stick defensive football is thousand times better than the mindless crossing and Valencia at Right back.
Youd really prefer Jose over some of the other options that might be available?That's so true, if only we can turn back the clock and got Jose like we should have done, we'd probably be battling for the title and looking forward to the CL SF 2nd leg now.
There would be uproar on the forum if we turned out a performance like Chelsea last night.
So basically minus the stick.
But people would be happy next Wednesday when we get the ticket for the final.
David Moyes lost the support of senior players at Manchester United
http://www1.skysports.com/football/...upport-of-senior-players-at-manchester-united
http://www1.skysports.com/football/...upport-of-senior-players-at-manchester-united
It's better than the "Moyes reality" but still...
But what are you actually talking about here? The sacking itself? For a start we know little about it. There's various bits of flimsy journalism but to take any of it as gospel would be precisely the kind of assumptive modern attitude you're so against. Most of it says Moyes had a clause in his contract, in which case he would've known conclusively well before Monday. Some of it says we sacked him when we did so we wouldn't be canvasing other managers behind his back. Which is actually very respectful. If you want to take the head of the Manager's Union as gospel, then it was pretty shitty. It depends. Do you know anything we/they don't?
You say you were proud of how we behaved under Gill and Fergie, but we never sacked a manager under Gill and Fergie. The entire Fergie system was set up to protect the manager. The manager knew best. How exactly would you implement such a policy whilst trying to sack the manager?
We certainly sacked a few players though, many of them unceremoniously, with briefings and rumours in tow to boot (Beckham, Keane, RVN particularly) so I'd suggest you're being willfully disingenuous if you think we were always a paragon of virtue.
No, but then there's no way to tell anything. Everything is a judgement call. This season was pretty good evidence though. We looked at this season and saw that everything had failed to work. It looked like quite a gamble to continue with Moyes considering what he'd achieved so far. You seem to be pushing for this gamble in order to reward a certain moral position above all else. I'd say logic and probability pointed squarely to getting rid. Again, something which apparently even Fergie agreed with by the end.
No, we sacked him because he'd failed to reach any of his reasonable targets, by quite a distance, and actively took us hurtling several places backwards. No one expected instant success, but no one expected instant capitulation either.
Why are you taking certain sources as gospel when deciding who was at fault for the summer transfer window? Who's to say Moyes wasn't just as culpable? He was known as 'Dithering Dave' at Everton in part for his transfer activity.
Perhaps. If such a scenario occurs, with precisely the same kind of negative football and uninspiring performances, then yes. If so we keep trying until we find the right guy to take over and give suitable time. It's not just a case of "Anyone will do as long we give them time because time is the most important thing"..It's the person who's the most important thing.
When Moyes was first appointed people kept banging on about how the club could see what he was doing behind the scenes and if it was or wasn't working, and us lot in the dark were just speculating. Well now the club has gotten rid because the club could evidently see it wasn't working and now you're just speculating, surely?
I don't know how anyone can argue it wasn't the right decision. The vast majority of people are now of one mind on it. The fans, the board, the journalists, the players, Fergie. It's odd that those who were pushing the most for us to be loyal to the club are now claiming (in at least some small way) that the club has been disloyal to Moyes! What?
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