Confirmed: Moyes sacked.

[Cal?]

Offer Abramovich Rooney in exchange for Mourinho.

 

[SER19]

I cant say that us looking poor have a lot to do with tactics?

yes you can.......but i was just saying its important to separate poor performace and tactics from basic effort and concentration. look at tottenhams second goal against us at old trafford. was moyes tactics to blame for eriksen gaining about 10 yards on valencia inside the box? cabayes goal for newcastle, moyes to blame for cleverley not moving his arse as he ran straight past him? the worst collection of penalties ive ever seen, moyes too? countless other examples. the ball being kicked out of play from 10 yards away from the person it was being passed to, repeatedly. it was lazy, not interested and lacked any pride all season. good riddance to many

 

[Sassy Colin]

Looks like some are suggesting Moyes was the moral victor, now he's just like Shitty!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There are certainly some fans who seem to have taken to Moyes as a totem for their own semi-righteous belief in the proper nature of fandom. They truly believed that with time the spoilt, impatient unworthy plastic modern fans would be weeded out, while their sure to be vindicated trust would be rewarded. That in the end the club, and even Ferguson ended up siding with the dark side, which in many cases has been childish and petulant since about January has hurt and annoyed them. They never got a reward for their virtuous, naive loyalty. As such the can't quite let go of Moyes as some kind of hero to stand behind. Even if they admit he was a terrible, terrible manager, he's still the moral winner, somehow. As are they....

Not sure which cohort of fans you're talking about. Admittedly I steer clear of football talk on Twitter so it's possible the self-righteousness you describe exists on there. Definitely not seen it on here though.

In the context of this thread, everyone seems to agree Moyes did a bad job. Some people think the players also let themselves down. Others apparently disagree with the latter point of view. Preferring to make Moyes 100% culpable for the performance of the team.

Extreme opinions like that are rarely accurate. Much more likely that both players and manager share the blame for what happened. Exactly how that blame is shared between them is open to debate. I certainly don't see anyone throwing the kind of shapes you just described though. The post mortem seems to be fairly reasonable, if you ask me, even from those who think Moyes is entitled to feel a little hard done by regarding the lack of effort from the squad he inherited.

 

[RoadTrip]

No it wasn't. I've asked this many times and am yet to receive an acceptable rebuttal. Which player, on the pitch during a game, was actively not trying to win a football match? When somebody can name a game, name a player, name the minute and explain what he specifically did that demonstrated this supposed deplorable lack of effort for the cause then I might just understand the disgraceful treatment our players have received - off some supporters - throughout the season.

The players tried. I watched De Gea try. I watched Rafael run himself silly. Smalling, Jones, Evans, didn't try? The narrative is and has always been nonsense. The moment we employ a manager with the right mindset and the imagination and talent to coach these players then things will dramatically improve. Had Moyes' methods been good ones then this wouldn't have happened. They weren't, they were shite, just like many people predicted given the large amount of pure guff they'd watched at Everton in the years leading up to his appointment.

By all accounts, it's Giggs that was the ringleader behind his dismissal. Was it Giggs, all conquering legend of the club, that didn't play for the shirt?

If I said to you, can you prove to me that each of our players gave maximum effort, not just on the pitch, but in training, and everything in between, could you do it? You can't declare victory because you've put the onus of proof on the other person. You couldn't prove otherwise, either.

It is an opinion. Not fact mate, an opinion. People are allowed to disagree.

 

[Kayo]

Jame Ducker is correct, mentioning the quarter finals especially after beating a piss poor Greek team sums up Moyes mentality and why he had to go. Amazed he didn't get the word "try" in there somehwhere.

However I wish him all the best and don't blame him in the slightest for failing to mention the players, all bar about 4 of them have downed tools since Fergie left and deserve all the critism they get.

 

[RoadTrip]

Looks like some are suggesting Moyes was the moral victor, now he's just like Shitty!

But no one is saying that?

 

[Empire]

Are people really still banging on about "What happened to the Ronaldo money?!" We've overspent on players like Young, Jones, Fellaini, Mata and Zaha. Arguably DDG too, as 18m is a lot of money to spend on a goalkeeper. On those players alone, the fees are about £110m (not inc. DDG).

Calculate the net spend. And read the post more accurately, I made clear there is no question regarding the Glazers spending. The post was in support of the Glazers spending, Jesus.

Why respond if you won't read properly?

Spending is not an issue. Pre-Glazers we spent, Post-Glazers we have spent. However, during Fergie's reign under the Glazers the net spend is not high because of the Ronaldo money. So if we have spent the Ronaldo money and there is no more money that means the Glazers refused Ferguson transfer funds (or gave little) outside of players sold.

Our net spend suggests there was a lack of investment however the Glazers probably were happy to compensate for this down the line because during that period investment might not have been needed by Ferguson.

 

[Red Stone]

Looks like some are suggesting Moyes was the moral victor, now he's just like Shitty!

City are winning trophies.

 

[Shamwow]

No it wasn't. I've asked this many times and am yet to receive an acceptable rebuttal. Which player, on the pitch during a game, was actively not trying to win a football match? When somebody can name a game, name a player, name the minute and explain what he specifically did that demonstrated this supposed deplorable lack of effort for the cause then I might just understand the disgraceful treatment our players have received - off some supporters - throughout the season.

The players tried. I watched De Gea try. I watched Rafael run himself silly. Smalling, Jones, Evans, didn't try? The narrative is and has always been nonsense. The moment we employ a manager with the right mindset and the imagination and talent to coach these players then things will dramatically improve. Had Moyes' methods been good ones then this wouldn't have happened. They weren't, they were shite, just like many people predicted given the large amount of pure guff they'd watched at Everton in the years leading up to his appointment.

By all accounts, it's Giggs that was the ringleader behind his dismissal. Was it Giggs, all conquering legend of the club, that didn't play for the shirt?

All the players you mentioned by name there tried their best in my opinion. I'm thinking of the likes of Rio, RVP, Evra who did not give 100% in every game.

The biggest thing for me was the amount of times I saw players jogging back lazily instead of busting a gut to stop a counter attack.

Or Rio constantly lacking focus. I know he's always been known for losing his focus from time to time but he took it to a new level this season.

Granted it's hard to pinpoint, say what is the fault of the tactics (which were the biggest problem this season, I'm not denying that) and what is lack of effort but like someone said earlier, think about our 6-1 loss to City under Fergie, and the level of effort was much higher compared to our most recent performance against them.

 

[Sassy Colin]

That's an easy excuse but the lack of effort was clear to see on many occasions.

If they weren't going to play for Moyes, they should've played for the shirt and the fans.

I think a couple of the home performances were exactly that, particularly against Olympaicos, do you think RvP scored that hatrick for Moyes? Did he feck...

 

[LR7]

There are certainly some fans who seem to have taken to Moyes as a totem for their own semi-righteous belief in the proper nature of fandom. They truly believed that with time the spoilt, impatient unworthy plastic modern fans would be weeded out, while their sure to be vindicated trust would be rewarded. That in the end the club, and even Ferguson ended up siding with the dark side, which in many cases has been childish and petulant since about January has hurt and annoyed them. They never got a reward for their virtuous, naive loyalty. As such the can't quite let go of Moyes as some kind of hero to stand behind. Even if they admit he was a terrible, terrible manager, he's still the moral winner, somehow. As are they....

Well said Mockney. Spot on.

 

[Oggmonster]

Fed up of all of these "He has handled himself with dignity, can't say the same about the players, they should be ashamed of themselves"

They have been, and are, serial winners. By all accounts, Moyes's methods were absolutely dreadful. It's absolutely inevitable that there's going to be a certain amount of ridiculing.

Blame the people that made the decision if you don't want to blame Moyes, but christ, get your heads in the real world.

I think the problem with all of this is it's all speculation, and it's alien to any United fans. There is no set way on how to react and therefore it seems people want to go one route of the other.

I don't think he's handled himself awfully during it all, he's made a lot of mistakes but it does seem apparent the job was just to big for him, which is a shame really as it's never nice to see people fail, especially when it affects the club you support.

The players aren't blameless for me though if articles are to believed, it won't just be at United, there's player power at most top clubs I'd imagine, Chelsea and City have been guilty of it in recent times and the likes of Madrid have history for it (Barca to, wasn't their manager basically hand picked by Messi?!?) It was probably one of his biggest downfalls, you are never going to win anything if you don't have the respect of the people that work for you. I think it's a bit of a shame that it ended like it did, I do have a degree of sympathy for him as I would with most people who are visibly struggling every week in their dream job.

There are certainly some fans who seem to have taken to Moyes as a totem for their own semi-righteous belief in the proper nature of fandom. They truly believed that with time the spoilt, impatient unworthy plastic modern fans would be weeded out, while their sure to be vindicated trust would be rewarded. That in the end the club, and even Ferguson ended up siding with the dark side, which in many cases has been childish and petulant since about January has hurt and annoyed them. They never got a reward for their virtuous, naive loyalty. As such the can't quite let go of Moyes as some kind of hero to stand behind. Even if they admit he was a terrible, terrible manager, he's still the moral winner, somehow. As are they....

There's two sides to that argument though. I'm sure there is some fans who are like you said but the counter argument is that they never wanted Moyes, from the minute he lost his first game they wanted him gone and Fergie would of never let anything like this happen. From that moment he wasn't good enough and they wanted the club to fail, Moyes being sacked proved them right all along. In fact I'm sure there's a topic on this forum where people want us to lose games.

As I said before, I feel sorry for him but he had to be sacked really, he probably knows it himself as it never looked like improving. It's not the end of the world for him, he'll work again and got a nice pay out for it. Obviously I'm sure he'd of hoped it worked out. There's a lot of extremes with stuff like this, some people take him failing far to personally as if he damaged their life on a personal level.

 

[SteveJ]

There should be no place for "black or white debate" in the Mains FF or United boards. We're practically all been promoted because we're capable of resonable discussion about football matters. It simply won't do to consider nonsense like "Rooney's a fat, overpaid twat & you fanboys know nothing about football"/"Rooney's a genius & you critics are fools" as deserving of debate, let alone as examples of one side's (the side you personally disagree with) foundational argument or intellectual capability. This is intellectual cowardice - to dismiss others' opinions on the basis of extreme, blinkered, biased and laughable views - and should not replace your well-thought-out argument pro or anti-Moyes, Rooney, whoever or whatever. This tactic should be seen for what it is: distraction.

 

[Sassy Colin]

City are winning trophies.

Hve you forgotten when we beat them but they claimed a moral victory? They won the League Cup though, which is more than Moyes has (or may ever) win.

 

[Getsme]

Not everything in life is about winning, though.

Not in life, but it is in sport.

 

[Cantonarightboot]

He's not an angel, but two wrongs don't make a right. We don't need to beat him while he is down and personally abuse him. That is literally all I'm saying. I don't know why it's being turned into a soap opera or what not about how I'm defending Moyes.

no drama from me, only thing I'd say is he is one of these sorts that always gets away with stuff it seems.... the media blew smoke up his ar$e for years, like he was some genius bringing poor wee everton to their very limit!! For me he has shown his true colours... I don't think he acted with much dignity or class for us, add in the reasons why everton dislike him...all adds up really to him not being as nice as some people are making out it seems!

 

[Sassy Colin]

But no one is saying that?

Not directly no, but all this 'classy this and classy that', some of the things he said about the squad and what he was left by SAF, was that classy too?

 

[Untied]

No mention of the players in that statement. More to come probably in a book.

Surely they'll have got him to sign a non-disclosure agreement as part of the pay off. Give it a few years and then there may be a book.

 

[RoadTrip]

Not sure which cohort of fans you're talking about. Admittedly I steer clear of football talk on Twitter so it's possible the self-righteousness you describe exists on there. Definitely not seen it on here though.

In the context of this thread, everyone seems to agree Moyes did a bad job. Some people think the players also let themselves down. Others apparently disagree with the latter point of view. Preferring to make Moyes 100% culpable for the performance of the team.

Extreme opinions like that are rarely accurate. Much more likely that both players and manager share the blame for what happened. Exactly how that blame is shared between them is open to debate. I certainly don't see anyone throwing the kind of shapes you just described though. The post mortem seems to be fairly reasonable, if you ask me, even from those who think Moyes is entitled to feel a little hard done by regarding the lack of effort from the squad he inherited.

And I, who am probably "defending" Moyes here more than most, won't even go as far as to say that. Tactically, motivation-ally, he let our team down. He was out of his depth. He can't expect the players to give 100% when they have this negative weighing against them. However, I believe the players could still have done a little more than what they did, despite this. I wouldn't expect them to play at their peaks, because that'd be unrealistic given it's a manager they dislike, but they could have done a bit more, for us fans, for personal pride.

And anyway, this point is largely by the by. The only reason I started getting a bit irritated is the lack of decency to Moyes. As I have said a couple times, acting with dignity doesn't cost anything. I don't see why some fans need to keep kicking and abusing him, personally. That's the only element I dislike and think should be cut out. I wouldn't have any problem with someone saying how shit he was at his job.

 

[Mockney]

I completely agree. I'm not calling for statues, I'm not calling for a standing ovation. I'm not saying he should be loved by us just because he acted with class. I am solely saying, people don't have to kick him. But to certain people in this thread, apparently saying that means I am in love with the guy and that I'm defending him because I think he was an awesome manager. Which is not the case.

Cool, then that type of mindset doesn't apply to you. I genuinely think it does to some others though. There's been a mini-fan war going on since about Jan.

 

[Shark]

You'd think yes with the way some people are posting.

Nobody is criticizing everything about the man, so I'm not why you'd think that. If nothing bothers you whatsoever about his statement, well then that's fine. Just as the people who think that one or two things he's said is a reason why he was never up for the job.

 

[Ducklegs]

Not sure if Bevan's full quote about the Moyes situation has been posted yet:

". David is one of the most talented, knowledgeable and dedicated managers in British Football.

Clearly untrue.

 

[RoadTrip]

Cool, then that type of mindset doesn't apply to you. I genuinely think it does to some others though. There's been a mini-fan war going on since about Jan.

Aye, I'm sure there are a few. And they'd be wrong, just as wrong as the guys who enjoy taking the piss and humiliating Moyes even after the even.

Criticism should be solely in respect to his terrible performance as our manager. And "thanks" should be in so far as to show respect to the fact that he did try his hardest, but nothing more. That would be my ideal world!

 

[Kag]

If I said to you, can you prove to me that each of our players gave maximum effort, not just on the pitch, but in training, and everything in between, could you do it? You can't declare victory because you've put the onus of proof on the other person. You couldn't prove otherwise, either.

It is an opinion. Not fact mate, an opinion. People are allowed to disagree.

They can disagree all they like, I have no problem with that. However, vapid cliches about "effort" and "heart" have been bandied about all season and too little has been done to quantify the outcry. Of course, it's difficult and obviously a little daft of me to ask for specific examples now, but I do remember asking people after particular games "who hasn't tried today?" and I don't remember any clear evidence to suggest that the players actively didn't try. Honestly, what benefit do they get from not trying?

I've been convinced since about October that this is mostly, primarily, down to the work, or lack of, on the training pitch. Our players have played poorly, there is no escaping that, but the notion that they are all rotten apples, and Moyes has behaved impeccably, is something I honestly can't accept. In football terms, Ryan Giggs think he's an idiot, what more do people want? This all getting a bit ugly in the media, and of course we have all heard mutterings throughout the season so I'm inclined to believe most of it, but it's all a product of Moyes and his methods. As soon as better methods are in place then I fully expect a season of harmony and perhaps some success.

I said it yesterday, now is not the time to turn on our players.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Also worth bearing in mind that we're talking very fine margins here. Competitive sport at this level can be decided by very small increments in terms of effort and dedication. Players may not have been actively taking the piss but anything less than 100% commitment to the cause will quickly affect results on the pitch. It may even have been at a subconscious level, rather than outright rebellion.

 

[Shamwow]

I think a couple of the home performances were exactly that, particularly against Olympaicos, do you think RvP scored that hatrick for Moyes? Did he feck...

Yeah a couple games they did try - which makes the other times that they slacked off even more noticeable - but we as fans should expect 100% in every game from these players and we have not been provided with that level of effort this season.

Someone said after the Bayern game at OT that it was noticeable how much more effort the likes of Vidic and Carrick were putting in. I defended them saying that the tactics allowed for them being more mobile it as we were much more compact. However the away game showed us that they can put in the effort even when the game is more open.

 

[RoadTrip]

Nobody is criticizing everything about the man, so I'm not why you'd think that. If nothing bothers you whatsoever about his statement, well then that's fine. Just as the people who think that one or two things he's said is a reason why he was never up for the job.

The issue wasn't about his statement. I just don't like the personal insults. An objective view on his statement I'm more then willing to welcome. It's the people who try and swindle a way to attack him personally from his statement is just wrong. And not saying that is you, but there have been a few in this thread (which is where my posts were largely aimed at).

On a side note, I completely agree with that by the way. There are indeed a couple of things which highlight why his mentality was never right to succeed here, and why his ambitions were maybe too "small time". Also, I think it boils down to the fact that he never felt he "owned" the job. He was always in awe of it. As opposed to a character or a manager with experience like Mourinho, who would have come in and felt like he had the right to sit in SAF's seat.

 

[Shamwow]

Also worth bearing in mind that we're talking very fine margins here. Competitive sport at this level can be decided by very small increments in terms of effort and dedication. Players may not have been actively taking the piss but anything less than 100% commitment to the cause will quickly affect results on the pitch. It may even have been at a subconscious level, rather than outright rebellion.

This is the one reason I wouldn't want to go in too hard on the players, because I think we all know from experience that sometimes the extra 10% effort is very hard to get intentionally, it comes from your mood and state of mind.

 

[Plugsy]

It's all rather sad, isn't it? It'd be easier to have sympathy with him if he was a man seemingly capable of finding fault within himself. Instead from the outside in it seems as if his views, methods, approach, tactics, preparation, signings, appointees and general all-round attitude to the job was perfect in his eyes. He had ample opportunity during the season to change. He was getting negative feedback about his training as far back as September and rather than change then he refused. He continued to refuse even after it became clear that a side famed for winning games in the last 20 minutes suddenly became one that looked dead on our feet after an hour.

Young players run into the ground and then dropped and missing so long they started to appear on the side of milk cartons. Punishing Cleverley (as much as I'm not a huge fan) for a leggy challenge that cost us a penalty after playing him 9 times in 24 days.

This is why on a personal level I can feel pity for a man who lost his job but other than that I can't have any sympathy with him. And if he is livid by our handling of the situation the man will be in for a culture shock were he to get another high profile job in football in this country or anywhere else, which admittedly seems unlikely.

 

[RoadTrip]

They can disagree all they like, I have no problem with that. However, vapid cliches about "effort" and "heart" have been bandied about all season and too little has been done to quantify the outcry. Of course, it's difficult and obviously a little daft of me to ask for specific examples now, but I do remember asking people after particular games "who hasn't tried today?" and I don't remember any clear evidence to suggest that the players actively didn't try. Honestly, what benefit do they get from not trying?

I've been convinced since about October that this is mostly, primarily, down to the work, or lack of, on the training pitch. Our players have played poorly, there is no escaping that, but the notion that they are all rotten apples, and Moyes has behaved impeccably, is something I honestly can't accept. In football terms, Ryan Giggs think he's an idiot, what more do people want? This all getting a bit ugly in the media, and of course we have all heard mutterings throughout the season so I'm inclined to believe most of it, but it's all a product of Moyes and his methods. As soon as better methods are in place then I fully expect a season of harmony and perhaps some success.

I said it yesterday, now is not the time to turn on our players.

I agree. But there is a difference between acknowledging they could have done more, and full on turning on them. I'm disappointed a bit with them, especially when reading some of the things in the articles (though I have no idea if they are true or not). I expected better from them. But even the best professionals act in obscure ways when put in frustrating or difficult situations.

 

[Kag]

Also worth bearing in mind that we're talking very fine margins here. Competitive sport at this level can be decided by very small increments in terms of effort and dedication. Players may not have been actively taking the piss but anything less than 100% commitment to the cause will quickly affect results on the pitch. It may even have been at a subconscious level, rather than outright rebellion.

This is a fair point.

 

[Mockney]

Not sure which cohort of fans you're talking about. Admittedly I steer clear of football talk on Twitter so it's possible the self-righteousness you describe exists on there. Definitely not seen it on here though..

Oh I have. There are still a couple of posters here getting overly working up by the players supposed behaviour and claiming Moyes could've still turned it around if he'd had their support, or the fans, or the elusive ever mystical "more time", but admittedly it's not so much this site as others. Ones with far more entrenched views on match going fans, modern fans and plastic fans. Those who usually only ever pop on here to have a go.

I don't think they're hugely prevalent, but they certainly exist. They're the kind of fans who say things like "I'd take a couple of years in the doldrums to weed out the glory hunters" whilst claiming hoping to lose a couple of games to get rid of a manager was the epoch of plastic.

Both of these attitudes are daft fwiw, but you know they definitely exist.

There's two sides to that argument though. I'm sure there is some fans who are like you said but the counter argument is that they never wanted Moyes, from the minute he lost his first game they wanted him gone and Fergie would of never let anything like this happen. From that moment he wasn't good enough and they wanted the club to fail, Moyes being sacked proved them right all along. In fact I'm sure there's a topic on this forum where people want us to lose games.

Oh I agree, both sides have been silly, and those who gave up straight away and wanted us to lose have hardly covered themselves in any glory. Fact is though, they were proved right. The winner takes it all.

 

[Barca84]

Does recognising his failure but not using it as a reason to criticise everything about the man make someone pro-Moyes?

I think you'll find thats not what I said.

But it does seem that one carefully worded statement from him and, for some, he's gone from a figure of growing derision to a man of class and dignity almost. He's being patronised and pitied whilst his 10 month input into our club has unquestionably put us in a worse position than the one we were in before he came.

 

[Zak Smith]

When something major happens at Manchester United there are certain underlying opinions which always dictate how some people post/view the issue in hand.

People who don't like Ferguson will try and paint him in a negative light, or player X, or the owners or Moyes. There are people on this forum who have been against Moyes from day one, where it was "obvious" that he was going to fail. So they'll keep on using all this new evidence to support this opinion, even in his resignation statement some phrasing or wording will be used to deduce some character flaw which they've seen from the beginning.

 

[Sad Chris]

Not sure if Bevan's full quote about the Moyes situation has been posted yet:

"The LMA is very disappointed with the nature of David's departure from Manchester United and to read extensive reports in the press, confirming David's sacking, before David himself had been spoken to officially by the club. Throughout his time at United, David, as he always does, has conducted himself with integrity and professionalism, values that he believes in and that have been strongly associated with the club and its rich tradition. It is therefore sad to see the end of David's tenure at United being handled in an unprofessional manner. David is one of the most talented, knowledgeable and dedicated managers in British Football. He has a wealth of experience accumulated in a management career that started when he was 35 and already spans 16 years, with over 800 games in the professional game. David is a three-time winner of the LMA Manager of the Year Award, and without a doubt, he has a significant future in front of him in football management. He is passionate about the game and I know he possesses the drive and resilience to learn from this chapter of his career and move on to a new challenge in the game.”

I wonder if the LMA approached the United officials before going public with this statement...

I'd like to state that I'm very disappointed with the nature of the LMA's public criticism of Manchester United, before having spoken to the club officially first.

 

[Cantonarightboot]

It's all rather sad, isn't it? It'd be easier to have sympathy with him if he was a man seemingly capable of finding fault within himself. Instead from the outside in it seems as if his views, methods, approach, tactics, preparation, signings, appointees and general all-round attitude to the job was perfect in his eyes. He had ample opportunity during the season to change. He was getting negative feedback about his training as far back as September and rather than change then he refused. He continued to refuse even after it became clear that a side famed for winning games in the last 20 minutes suddenly became one that looked dead on our feet after an hour.

Young players run into the ground and then dropped and missing so long they started to appear on the side of milk cartons. Punishing Cleverley (as much as I'm not a huge fan) for a leggy challenge that cost us a penalty after playing him 9 times in 24 days.

This is why on a personal level I can feel pity for a man who lost his job but other than that I can't have any sympathy with him. And if he is livid by our handling of the situation the man will be in for a culture shock were he to get another high profile job in football in this country or anywhere else, which admittedly seems unlikely.

THIS!!

Brilliant post!!

 

[NotoriousISSY]

He mentions the United staff, don't you think that includes the players?

I certainly don't. More often than not you see managers differentiate between his staff, club staff and his players. I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that they never became his players on a psychological level which has essentially undermined his authority and power and cost him his job. The reasons for that, only they'll know and only they should know.

 

[Ducklegs]

They can disagree all they like, I have no problem with that. However, vapid cliches about "effort" and "heart" have been bandied about all season and too little has been done to quantify the outcry. Of course, it's difficult and obviously a little daft of me to ask for specific examples now, but I do remember asking people after particular games "who hasn't tried today?" and I don't remember any clear evidence to suggest that the players actively didn't try. Honestly, what benefit do they get from not trying?

I've been convinced since about October that this is mostly, primarily, down to the work, or lack of, on the training pitch. Our players have played poorly, there is no escaping that, but the notion that they are all rotten apples, and Moyes has behaved impeccably, is something I honestly can't accept. In football terms, Ryan Giggs think he's an idiot, what more do people want? This all getting a bit ugly in the media, and of course we have all heard mutterings throughout the season so I'm inclined to believe most of it, but it's all a product of Moyes and his methods. As soon as better methods are in place then I fully expect a season of harmony and perhaps some success.

I said it yesterday, now is not the time to turn on our players.

I am in full agreement with this.

You could see quite clearly that the players were off in their on the ball skills, that our attacking flair was being neutered and towards the end, we were completely clueless going forward.
David Moyes could be the nicest, hardest working, most genuinely big hearted person not just in football, but on the entire planet.

It doesnt change the fact that he didn't have a clue what he was doing and he was directing all that hard work and dedication in entirely the wrong direction and entirely the wrong people.

His analysis of what of who and what needed addressing was 100% off the mark from the second he walked in the door.

And people reminding us how nice a bloke he is isnt going to change the fact that he didnt just feck us up, but also his chances of another big job during his time here.

 

[Plugsy]

I wonder if his squad management failures are what has caused a sharper decline in Evra. Someone who turns 33 at the end of the season should start to wind-down his duties, at least mostly this will be the case. But he flogged Fabio without signing a replacement, bungled the transfer market and that left us with Buttner, e.g no real credible alternative.

For Evra to still be playing a 40+ game season is absurd, especially when during those games there's virtually no chance of rest-bite or substitution as we simply don't have another LB fit for purpose